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  1. #1
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    East Palestine, Ohio Disaster

    Not sure why this story never really broke the national newscycle until days later. Basically on Friday a train carrying highly toxic and combustible vinyl chloride derailed and caught fire in East Palestine, Ohio. Authorities decided to release the gas to advert a larger disaster. Of course that decision is without consequence - being within 1 mile of the site considered potentially lethal, people still 2 miles from the site are told not to leave their homes. A mandatory evacuation and curfew was established under threat of prosecution if violated due to the serious nature of the disaster. Efforts to mitigate further damage have been ongoing 4 days at the time of this post. Exact details are hard to put together as various sources report slightly different information.

    Authorities released a toxic chemical gas into the air Monday after it sat in train cars for days following a fiery Ohio derailment, sending a gray column of smoke into the air that darkened the skies as residents just across the Pennsylvania border in Beaver County watched warily.

    The planned controlled release of the industrial chemical vinyl chloride occurred late in the afternoon. Officials in both states had spent the day urging residents to leave an area of 1-2 miles around the small Ohio village of East Palestine, about 50 miles northwest of Pittsburgh, where the 50-car derailment Friday left the scene burning for days and sparked concerns about whether the air was safe to breathe.

    “If you are in this red zone that is on the map, and you refuse to evacuate, you are risking death,” Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro said earlier Monday, displaying a map with red and orange blobs stretching from the derailment site into Beaver County. “If you are within the orange area on this map you risk permanent lung damage within a matter of hours or days.”

    In the minutes after the gas was released, Dan Potts, who had left his hometown of Darlington Township in Beaver County because of the evacuation order, saw the column of smoke reach into the sky. Over the next hour, he watched the sky grow darker as the smoke spread. He described the spectacle before him simply as “strange, not something I’ve ever seen before.”[

    By about 5:30 p.m., much of the sky near Chippewa Township was covered in dark clouds of smoke. The early-evening winds appeared light and it wasn't yet clear if or how much they would blow the smoke into Beaver County.

    Mr. Shapiro held a short briefing at 8 p.m. where he stressed that the dramatic images notwithstanding, the controlled release was going as planned and should be wrapping up soon. He said the state is continuing to monitor the air quality around the burn and that “thus far no concerning readings have been detected.”

    “Out of an abundance of caution,” Mr. Shapiro asked that Pennsylvania residents who live within a 2-mile radius of the train derailment continue to shelter in place, keeping windows and doors closed.

    “We will learn from this,” he said.

    Earlier in the day, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said the contents of five rail cars containing vinyl chloride were unstable and could explode, which would have risked the deadly spread of both toxic fumes and shrapnel. The controlled release of the gas would help alleviate the risk of shrapnel, which could fly up to a mile in an explosion, he said.

    “We had to weigh different risks with no great choices,” Mr. DeWine said.

    Shortly after 5 p.m., Norfolk Southern, the rail operator, said that “the controlled breach of several rail cars has been completed successfully.”

    “Some of the material is now burning off consistent with expectations from the earlier models, and is expected to drain for a short number of hours,” the company said. “We have been, and will continue, monitoring air quality with the Ohio EPA.”
    rest of the story

    https://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...s/202302060058



    Last edited by PACOX; 2023-02-07 at 10:44 PM.

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  2. #2
    When it comes to chemical fires, sometimes the best response is to stay upwind, far away, and let it burn itself out. Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion (BLEVE) has killed many firefighters throughout the years.

  3. #3
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    This one was a smaller story in the news a few days ago when it happened so it was covered and I knew about it, but it's not really a massive story. And in the past couple of days it's been overshadowed by the earthquake disaster coverage in Turkey/Syria. These derailments aren't terribly rare, and usually do involve evacuating the local area until it's under control just to be safe if it's toxic. They also often happen in small or rural towns like this, so something relevant to a smaller # of people like that isn't typically front page national news.

    And as a side-note, Warren Buffet invested a bucketload of money into the train industry a few years ago. It turned out to be well-timed with fuel and transportation costs rising quite a bit over recent years driving increased shipping by rail. So he made out well, but that's also the reason that if you live in an area with trains you may have seen more trains and longer ones recently. And more rail shipping probably increases the odds of these disasters being a bit more frequent.
    Last edited by Biglog; 2023-02-07 at 11:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    After spending almost a decade repairing and servicing railroad tank cars it really is the better idea to bleed out the chemicals instead of risking an explosion.

    https://youtu.be/u19aozBaKi4

    Most tank cars have a pressure release valve on top but it can only bleed out so much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    And as a side-note, Warren Buffet invested a bucketload of money into the train industry a few years ago. It turned out to be well-timed with fuel and transportation costs rising quite a bit over recent years driving increased shipping by rail. So he made out well, but that's also the reason that if you live in an area with trains you may have seen more trains and longer ones recently. And more rail shipping probably increases the odds of these disasters being a bit more frequent.
    1. It's not just him. All American railroad companies are in the business of making money.

    2. There's no "maybe" about making trains longer, it's happening.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    And as a side-note, Warren Buffet invested a bucketload of money into the train industry a few years ago. It turned out to be well-timed with fuel and transportation costs rising quite a bit over recent years driving increased shipping by rail. So he made out well, but that's also the reason that if you live in an area with trains you may have seen more trains and longer ones recently. And more rail shipping probably increases the odds of these disasters being a bit more frequent.
    Higher traffic should not be a problem... as long as they increase maintenance to match.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Higher traffic should not be a problem... as long as they increase maintenance to match.
    But that costs money, the government will only subsidize it so much then we have to pay...what about the stockholders? Think about them for once. We can't waste money on safety and maintenance and shit. The Line Must Rise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Not sure why this story never really broke the national newscycle until days later. Basically on Friday a train carrying highly toxic and combustible vinyl chloride derailed and caught fire in East Palestine, Ohio. Authorities decided to release the gas to advert a larger disaster. Of course that decision is without consequence - being within 1 mile of the site considered potentially lethal, people still 2 miles from the site are told not to leave their homes. A mandatory evacuation and curfew was established under threat of prosecution if violated due to the serious nature of the disaster. Efforts to mitigate further damage have been ongoing 4 days at the time of this post. Exact details are hard to put together as various sources report slightly different information.



    rest of the story

    https://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...s/202302060058



    I read about this days ago. Stop blaming others cause YOU don't pay attention.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  8. #8
    Ahh so when the combination of De-regulation and cutting back employees for profit come together for a disaster.

    I don't see much news coverage on why it has happened. I have this story and some others so maybe reckless speculation on my part.

    This is known as a hot box, which is a term used for when a wheel bearing overheats on a railcar. In this case, the overheating led to a fire which then led to the derailment.

    Former State Rep Bob Hagan retired in 2021 after 50 years in the railroad industry. He says there are hot box detectors that alert conductors to stop the train.

    “We have, now, technology that can interpret any time a wheel is hot through that, and it would go via the radio where the engineer would be running the train, the conductor of course would be sitting next to them,” Hagan said.


    The Post-Gazette has video of a rail car passing with this issue.. Admittedly since no other news source has picked up on this, not sure if this is the video of that train. If it is, I'm amazed this is not all over the news.


    Trump officials roll back Obama oil train safety rule

    In the article it talks about better braking system being applied to oil tankers and not just All hazardous material transports. So I'm getting some mixed news but, there seemed to be a law that was later revoked or not really enforced cause of rail lobbyist.


    MUST WATCH:

    Chemical lobbyists got Obama officials to exempt trains like the one in Ohio from hazmat safety rules.

    Rail lobbyists got Trump officials to repeal rules requiring better brakes on trains.

    SecretaryPete hasn't moved to fix the safety rules.


    In the link is a video where David Sirota describes that the new brake system proposed by Department of Transportation was to cover oil tankers and Class II chemicals like the ones in Palestine. Chemical industry lobbyist lobbied to limit the definition of highly flammable chemicals. Thus excluding these brakes.

    When this was taken up again, the rail industry now chimed in citing cost concerns as deterrent and unwanted regulation and overreaction. Obama's rule would have then covered this type of chemical and thus rail car in Ohio.

    Check this out: Most rail cars are using technology from the Civil War

    Obama was trying to get the bill thru but in 2016 it was all but killed by what the rail industry cited cost concern to kill this bill. Reminder they are all very profitable. In 2016 the Trump and the Republicans repealed the mandate.


    Human error? Human error happens and could be many reasons. Do you remember that possible rail strike we almost had and cited was that Rail companies operate on such a razor thin staffing that they can't afford their employees to take sick leave.

    In short there doesn't seem to be much of story yet on why or how the train derailment too place. Can't say the new brakes or more staffing would have prevented this. Yet, these two factors show how companies choose profit over safety and in the end the private citizen suffers.
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  9. #9
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    A "hot box" can also be the responsibility of the owner of the train car since they are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep. A "hot box" occurs when the seals of the roller bearings weaken/deteriorate and the lubrication leaks out. It isn't hard to see this happen since the area around the seal will be covered in dark crud.

    As for the devices that scan for "hot boxes", these are called "defect detectors" or DD's. They are placed every so many miles apart. I think 10-20 or so. If a defect is detected, an announcement will sound over the radio. It will tell you what it is and which axle it is. I haven't had a "hot box" yet but what you're supposed to do is stop as soon as you can. Walk back to where the DD said the defect was and check the axle with a "temp stick", a crayon that melts at a certain temperature. If it melts you have to take the car to a suitable siding/spur track to be set out. I can't remember the speed you travel at to do this but I think it's 5 mph.

    I can't say what happened here but it does sound a little weird to have a hot box be discovered and suddenly derail right after. Could be human error on the part of the engineer since they're supposed to know how to slow down a train safely and I've run with a few who couldn't. >.>

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    I read about this days ago. Stop blaming others cause YOU don't pay attention.
    Imagine being this caustic for no reason. Touch grass.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Imagine being this caustic for no reason. Touch grass.
    Imaging applying your own vitriol to someone else's text.... touch grass... whatever that means.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  12. #12
    NEW TOXINS IDENTIFIED—“We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open,” said Sil Caggiano, a hazardous materials specialist. Rail company Norfolk Southern is paying just $25k to the town, or ~$5 per resident

    3 more new chemicals and they are dangerous. This tweet or video says the chemicals, and one is very dangerous. A carcogen.

    $5 per resident. LUL

    Yes, the larger effect will be down the line when we have possible cancer clusters when the rail and chemical company will have slithered out.
    Last edited by Paranoid Android; 2023-02-13 at 10:58 PM.
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  13. #13
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Basically they hoped the could have rushed the story before more eyes were on it, let it fade as 'just another accident', hoping to mitigate reparations owed to the future problems of those in the surrounding area in the name of profit.


    That land and those people are screwed. Probably a lot people than the little ass radius that was evacuated.

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  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Basically they hoped the could have rushed the story before more eyes were on it, let it fade as 'just another accident', hoping to mitigate reparations owed to the future problems of those in the surrounding area in the name of profit.


    That land and those people are screwed. Probably a lot people than the little ass radius that was evacuated.
    So first they didn't report fast enough, now it's a conspiracy they all reported too fast to bury the story later.... lol
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So first they didn't report fast enough, now it's a conspiracy they all reported too fast to bury the story later.... lol
    It was reported, but mostly flew under the radar because nobody died and it remains mostly underreported because there's no good political angle to latch onto, both Dems and Goopers in something like the last 70 years have been failing on regulations here.

    Another element is that industrial accidents and such are relatively underreported in the US for longer running deeper political issues tied to the overconsolidation of local media, very lax safety standards and weak workers rights groups that would lobby about these safety issues.

    There are about a hundred different reasons why this incident is not getting the attention it should be getting.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer
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    No one died (yet), alittle more pollution in the air , companies not properly compensating people in some small town , typical day in the good ol USA. That shit ain’t gonna attract attention, newspaper need something more catchy to divert attention from corruption of elite.

    On topic ,
    Bad luck for the locals, I know I would be paranoid about touching anything in the area after everything is said and done.

  17. #17
    Erin Brockovich asks Biden to ‘step up’ as people fall sick and animals drop dead after Ohio train derailment

    The renowned whistleblower, environmental activist, consumer advocate and subject of an Oscar-winning film, said the US president needed to be “more involved”.

    Ms Brockovich was referring to the 3 February incident when a train operated by Norfolk Southern Railway derailed near East Palestine, Ohio, causing a major fire near the track.

    Among the 50 cars that derailed, 20 were carrying hazardous materials, including vinyl chloride, a toxic and flammable gas and phosgene, a gas deployed as a chemical weapon in the First World War.

    To avoid an explosion, officials decided to conduct a controlled burn of the hazardous materials on 6 February, which released toxic chemicals into the atmosphere.

    “Doing better than your predecessor, is not doing enough,” Ms Brockovich tweeted on Monday.

    More than 2,000 residents were evacuated due to health concerns over the chemical leak, but have since been allowed to return.

    Many in the area have complained about feeling unwell and experiencing headaches since the derailment. Some said their farm animals died after the leak, while hundreds of fish were found dead in the nearby Leslie Run stream.

    Environmental remediation work was ongoing, Norfolk Southern reported last week, along with air, soil, and water monitoring in coordination with state and federal agencies. Regulators have said that so far the air quality remains safe and drinking water supplies have not been affected in surrounding communities.

    East Palestine resident Melissa Henry told AP how she had taken her two sons to her parents’ house outside of the evacuation zone after her youngest boy’s “eyes turned red as tomato and he was coughing a lot”.

    One resident in the town of North Lima, around ten miles from the train derailment, reported that her six chickens died in the days after the fire.
    "My video camera footage shows my chickens were perfectly fine before they started this burn, and as soon as they started the burn, my chickens slowed down and they died,” Amanda Breshears told local TV station WKBN27.

    It was not the only report of sick animals. Taylor Holzer, a registered foxkeeper who lives outside the evacuation perimeter, told WKBN that all of his foxes were sick and one had died. Dead fish were also observed floating in local streams.

    Hazardous materials were found in samples taken from a number of waterways in the area - Sulphur Run, Leslie Run, Bull Creek, North Fork Little Beaver Creek, Little Beaver Creek, and the Ohio River.

    Materials related to the incident were also observed entering storm drains, EPA noted. The agency also highlighted that areas of contaminated soil and free liquids were observed and potentially covered and/or filled during reconstruction of the rail line.

    Environmental activist Erin Brockovich criticized the EPA and state lawmakers for telling people it was safe to return to their homes and at the same time, sending a legal notice to the rail operator over the threat of environmental contamination.

    "This is why people don’t trust government,” she tweeted on Monday.

    “You cannot tell people that there has been and continues to be hazardous pollutants contaminating the environment while at the same time saying ‘all is well."

    On 6th July 2013, a 73-car freight train derailed in the center of the town of Lac-Mégantic in Quebec, Canada, resulting in a huge explosion. Some 47 people were killed and roughly half the town was burned down.

    In February 2020, a landslide in Kentucky caused the derailment of a freight train carrying ethanol which led to a fire and chemical leak into a river. A 2005 derailment in Graniteville, South Carolina, left nine people dead and injured more than 250 after toxic chlorine gases were released.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    NEW TOXINS IDENTIFIED—“We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open,” said Sil Caggiano, a hazardous materials specialist. Rail company Norfolk Southern is paying just $25k to the town, or ~$5 per resident

    3 more new chemicals and they are dangerous. This tweet or video says the chemicals, and one is very dangerous. A carcogen.

    $5 per resident. LUL

    Yes, the larger effect will be down the line when we have possible cancer clusters when the rail and chemical company will have slithered out.
    Reminding me of that infamous case with the tainted water that took forever to get reparations off the gas company.

    Like, wtf kind of slap on the wrist fine is that??
    Last edited by Daedius; 2023-02-14 at 12:49 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustedsaint View Post
    No one died (yet), alittle more pollution in the air , companies not properly compensating people in some small town , typical day in the good ol USA. That shit ain’t gonna attract attention, newspaper need something more catchy to divert attention from corruption of elite.

    On topic ,
    Bad luck for the locals, I know I would be paranoid about touching anything in the area after everything is said and done.
    If I were a local I would simply move out it will take decades but that town is going to be cancer alley 2.0. The corporation will not pay anything and deny it has anything to do with them while people will keep dropping like flies from several diseases. Though it's not always possible people there should do everything they can to get out the government gives less of a fuck than the corporations no help is coming.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Like, wtf kind of slap on the wrist fine is that??
    Well-spent lobbying money that's good for business?

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