They said they don't want mythic raider force to do mythic plus...

[Loveliest]

I think the bigger issue isn't that your bis are in M+ but 3 other things:
- incredibly bad itemizatiom and very limited loot options in raid + no way to ensure you actually get any loot for several raids
- raids are scaled assuming you do M+ and craft your 418 items
- some bosses on x difficulty are harder than x+1 difficulty; assuming you have the required numbers to do mythic or pugging mythic to get past hc razageth for example. Otherwise you just tell a hc only raider he needs to be better than a Mythic raider (because gear won't help as much).

This overall makes it for an unpleasant experience if you only wish to raid with your guild. Raids should be scaled assuming you only do the raid. Anything on top of that should make your life easier in raid. And I say this as someone who does M+ religiously.
As a note, if you don't do M+ and only do raid, half your raid is probably carrying your ass while doing M+ etc and feeling very bitter about it.

[VMSmith]

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

I know people don't like to hear this, but "If you don't like it don't do it" and "Just make your own group" are the correct answers to most issues with M+ and such. They may not be satisfactory answers, they may not even be useful solutions, but they are the way things are.

If you are at a certain level of raiding you just have to accept that gearing up via M+ is part and parcel of the gig. If you can't handle that, then perhaps you need to set your raiding sights lower.

[Dacu]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

MAN, I feel the same way. I only like to do M+ but some of my BiS gear comes from mythic raiding. wtf blizz, don't you care about my feelings?!?!

[Lolites]

you are MOTIVATED to do M+, as it makes raids easier if you get gear elsewhere, and it will make the progress faster, but no, as long as you dont need something that cant be obtained in raid (like the back for nyalotha) to progress you are not forced, if you only want to raid, you can definitely do only raids and clear them

now you might be "forced" by your guild, but thats your issue, or you might be "forced" if you compete for world first, but again, that is hardly issue of game

on the other hand, people who only go for M+ might feel the same way towards raid, when their best trinkets/weapons and set (thats no longer issue) come from raid...
thing is as long as there are two ways of pve gearing bost results will ALWAYS be achieved by doing both, but as long as you dont need to be worlds best then you can definitely do only one and progress through to whatever goal yoy set for yourself

[brynhildrprot]

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

How is that even remotely the same. The gear caps out at +20 afterall and you can do that in 390-400ilvl, if you need more gear its a skill issue.

Its not like its infinitely scaling the gear

[Asrialol]

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

Whilst raiding is literally the exact same thing, expect it gets easier and easier.

[jeezusisacasual]

So instead of challenging the guilds leadership structure its better to destroy the more popular end game pillar? This is asinine in so many ways and perhaps Blizzard should do something to force upon a change in the communities perspective because clearly having more information has only harmed the tryhards.

[Kagthul]

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

So… exactly like raids then.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you are a mythic+ player afterall.

Look, the thing is the raid looting systems suck. That simple. The devs are so afraid you gear up fast that they prefer to kill all interest in the raid. I honestly expect raids to be downsized in the future.
The raids are made and balanced for the world first guilds and maybe we should get the hint and ignore the raids. Maybe once it collapses they can start making raids and systems for the regular players.

Edit: It was late. Many typos were made. Fixed it.

Raids were the focus when less than 5% of players even did them. Numbers are way higher now (30+%), so no way they are going to b de emphasized at this point.

[Kokolums]

these are your options:

1. buy wow tokens to get gold to buy m+ runs for raid gear.
2. buy wow tokens to get gold to buy mythic raid carries with loot funnel.
3. buy wow tokens to get gold to buy crafted gear.
4. when your toon is buffed out, now turn around and sell carries for the rest of the tier to make a profit.

if you are actually playing the game, its not only a waste of time but Blizz will punish you for it with low drop rates.

[Alroxas]

I am not sure what you are thinking of by weeks. I mean the way dinars worked was fine.

For your first Dinar, you had to down 30 fated bosses. At first, there was only 1 raid (out of 3) that was fated so at the minimum you were farming 3 weeks for the first dinar and that's assuming a full clear. Granted since those were rehashed raids, there was no "waiting" period for LFR to open so most players could finish in 3 weeks.

If such a system (Dinars) were added to retail as the current model exists (LFR staggered release of each wing, majority of players not clearing raid on week 1), then the average time it takes to clear 30 bosses for 1 dinar is 5~6 weeks.

Similar to the current wait time of Revival catalysts which many players have stated was far too long.

Does that help explain the logic a bit more?

I don't mean grinding some uncapped currency over and over without any lockouts or caps.

But regardless of whether there is a cap, You have two issues. First the perception that to stay relevant you had to reach said cap and second, that the cap is too low for the tryhards/min-maxers/etc players.

Just look a valor cap as an example. Limiting of 750 valor is crap when you consider it takes 1k valor to upgrade a 2Hander. So even if we were to move to a deterministic loot system with a currency, you're still having issues that currently exist in the game.

Yes, yes that is fun. Knowing i'm getting rewarded for my play time feels great and makes me happy to play.

So you do want a grind like Artifact Power or Azerite Power? That was "rewarding" in that you could see the incremental power gains each day/week but it was such a horrible grind.

"But you don't have to grind" is what some might say and I call BS on that. Most players grinded because of those player power gains and it was tedious. They didn't "enjoy" it. How many players (relatively speaking) actually enjoyed Island Expeditions? Or chain running Maw of Souls because it was the shortest dungeon for AP?

[jeezusisacasual]

For your first Dinar, you had to down 30 fated bosses. At first, there was only 1 raid (out of 3) that was fated so at the minimum you were farming 3 weeks for the first dinar and that's assuming a full clear. Granted since those were rehashed raids, there was no "waiting" period for LFR to open so most players could finish in 3 weeks.

If such a system (Dinars) were added to retail as the current model exists (LFR staggered release of each wing, majority of players not clearing raid on week 1), then the average time it takes to clear 30 bosses for 1 dinar is 5~6 weeks.

Similar to the current wait time of Revival catalysts which many players have stated was far too long.

Does that help explain the logic a bit more?



But regardless of whether there is a cap, You have two issues. First the perception that to stay relevant you had to reach said cap and second, that the cap is too low for the tryhards/min-maxers/etc players.

Just look a valor cap as an example. Limiting of 750 valor is crap when you consider it takes 1k valor to upgrade a 2Hander. So even if we were to move to a deterministic loot system with a currency, you're still having issues that currently exist in the game.




So you do want a grind like Artifact Power or Azerite Power? That was "rewarding" in that you could see the incremental power gains each day/week but it was such a horrible grind.

"But you don't have to grind" is what some might say and I call BS on that. Most players grinded because of those player power gains and it was tedious. They didn't "enjoy" it. How many players (relatively speaking) actually enjoyed Island Expeditions? Or chain running Maw of Souls because it was the shortest dungeon for AP?

That is largely because they thought those very minor increases would bring their damage up to those who are clearly better at the game. If they could get better at playing whatever class they had chose for that patch they would gain more then whatever neck level but people are terrible with self reflection for whatever reason.

[Nzx]

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

As opposed to raiding, which of course is well known as a completely different experience every time you enter and on your 150th wipe.

[arkanon]

How is that even remotely the same. The gear caps out at +20 afterall and you can do that in 390-400ilvl, if you need more gear its a skill issue.

Its not like its infinitely scaling the gear

Does the gear scale infinitely with greater rifts? Havnt played D3 in years.

[Laqweeta]

Everyone is forced to do everything! Let's have all fun canceled. Pre-made characters with no vertical progression in any content. That way nobody can ever complain about forced gameplay again!

Found the elite world quester.

[Morgaith]

Im 7/8 M and 3 pieces of gear is ALL i have from the raid, the rest is m+, crafting or vault.

[Lighthope]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

Sure it's an option. You don't have to get the stuff from vaults and upgrading via M+. You can wait for it to drop from raids. You just don't want to. That is not being forced.

What is that argument I used to hear? If open world people want high level gear, let them raid.

If you want M+ stuff, do M+.

#NoSympathy

[Swnem]

For your first Dinar, you had to down 30 fated bosses. At first, there was only 1 raid (out of 3) that was fated so at the minimum you were farming 3 weeks for the first dinar and that's assuming a full clear. Granted since those were rehashed raids, there was no "waiting" period for LFR to open so most players could finish in 3 weeks.

If such a system (Dinars) were added to retail as the current model exists (LFR staggered release of each wing, majority of players not clearing raid on week 1), then the average time it takes to clear 30 bosses for 1 dinar is 5~6 weeks.

Similar to the current wait time of Revival catalysts which many players have stated was far too long.

Does that help explain the logic a bit more?



But regardless of whether there is a cap, You have two issues. First the perception that to stay relevant you had to reach said cap and second, that the cap is too low for the tryhards/min-maxers/etc players.

Just look a valor cap as an example. Limiting of 750 valor is crap when you consider it takes 1k valor to upgrade a 2Hander. So even if we were to move to a deterministic loot system with a currency, you're still having issues that currently exist in the game.




So you do want a grind like Artifact Power or Azerite Power? That was "rewarding" in that you could see the incremental power gains each day/week but it was such a horrible grind.

"But you don't have to grind" is what some might say and I call BS on that. Most players grinded because of those player power gains and it was tedious. They didn't "enjoy" it. How many players (relatively speaking) actually enjoyed Island Expeditions? Or chain running Maw of Souls because it was the shortest dungeon for AP?

The LFR was released at once in season 4. It wasn't staggered. So, everyone could get all bosses killed in a week. You could get your dinar in 3 weeks, which is much better.

I don't see the problem? Having a cap means you don't have to grind something to exhaustion. You can pace yourself and it's alt friendly.
Valor sucks cause it makes no sense. It's terribly designed. You don't get a piece of gear from it, you just upgrade what you got and the cost is completely out of whack. Earlier upgrades should be much cheaper than later upgrades. It fails completely as a catch up system and leads everyone to hoard the points and not use them.
That is completely different from deterministic gear aquisition.

WTF. Borrowed power is the complete opposite. It's uncapped and has no end. It's the infinite grind. Seriously you flip flop like mad. First you think it's acquiring all gear in 1 day and now you think it's grinding forever. Deary me. Lay off the drama juice.
It would be no different than any other weekly you have atm.

[Alroxas]

The LFR was released at once in season 4. It wasn't staggered. So, everyone could get all bosses killed in a week. You could get your dinar in 3 weeks, which is much better.

Did I not mention this? Let me quote it again:

If such a system (Dinars) were added to retail as the current model exists (LFR staggered release of each wing, majority of players not clearing raid on week 1), then the average time it takes to clear 30 bosses for 1 dinar is 5~6 weeks.

Emphasis added. And would you know 6 weeks is exactly how long it took Revival Catalyst to come into effect for DF season 1 (which again players believed that took too long).

Valor sucks cause it makes no sense.

No the reason why valor stinks is that there's a cap. Once valor cap is removed (Feb 14th) it's fine as a system because players can fully upgrade an item (provided they meet the score requirements). Run RLP for whelp trinket, then run as many lower keys as you want until you have enough valor to fully upgrade the trinket.

That is completely different from deterministic gear aquisition.

But is deterministic gear acquisition better though? Consider PvP gear. You farm the shit out of Conquest to buy the base version of item x. Then you spend a ton of Honor to upgrade it up to your PvP rating level. And you do this for EVERY. PIECE. OF. PVP. GEAR.

In fact, there's even a hierarchy of which items to get in a specific order because everything is measured out for you. Get X first, it represents a 10% DPS gain, then get Y next, as it's only 9.5% DPS gain, then Z (at 8% DPS gain) and so on.

WTF. Borrowed power is the complete opposite. It's uncapped and has no end.

Legion Artifact first iteration of capstone (aka infinite) trait had 20 points to invest in which granted 10% throughput. That was the end point for most players until a later Legion content patch added the second capstone (infinite) trait. And even then the end point was reaching that capstone since further investment into to infinite trait wasn't worth measuring.

BFA Heart of Azeroth had distinct end points depending on the level of Azerite gear you could get. At the highest end (Mythic Azerite Gear), you wanted HoA lv 65 so that all 3 pieces could gain their empowerment ring unlocked.

Yes you could grind beyond that but there were end points that players sought after.

First you think it's acquiring all gear in 1 day and now you think it's grinding forever

Yes, if given an easier loot acquisition system, wow players have shown they will min/max the fun out of the game.

Case in point, Super rares for DF especially at launch week.

[Swnem]

Did I not mention this? Let me quote it again:



Emphasis added. And would you know 6 weeks is exactly how long it took Revival Catalyst to come into effect for DF season 1 (which again players believed that took too long).



No the reason why valor stinks is that there's a cap. Once valor cap is removed (Feb 14th) it's fine as a system because players can fully upgrade an item (provided they meet the score requirements). Run RLP for whelp trinket, then run as many lower keys as you want until you have enough valor to fully upgrade the trinket.




But is deterministic gear acquisition better though? Consider PvP gear. You farm the shit out of Conquest to buy the base version of item x. Then you spend a ton of Honor to upgrade it up to your PvP rating level. And you do this for EVERY. PIECE. OF. PVP. GEAR.

In fact, there's even a hierarchy of which items to get in a specific order because everything is measured out for you. Get X first, it represents a 10% DPS gain, then get Y next, as it's only 9.5% DPS gain, then Z (at 8% DPS gain) and so on.




Legion Artifact first iteration of capstone (aka infinite) trait had 20 points to invest in which granted 10% throughput. That was the end point for most players until a later Legion content patch added the second capstone (infinite) trait. And even then the end point was reaching that capstone since further investment into to infinite trait wasn't worth measuring.

BFA Heart of Azeroth had distinct end points depending on the level of Azerite gear you could get. At the highest end (Mythic Azerite Gear), you wanted HoA lv 65 so that all 3 pieces could gain their empowerment ring unlocked.

Yes you could grind beyond that but there were end points that players sought after.



Yes, if given an easier loot acquisition system, wow players have shown they will min/max the fun out of the game.

Case in point, Super rares for DF especially at launch week.

Ok, i wasn't clear then. The lfr should all come out at once or the number of boss kills needs to be adjusted. No need for drama.

Yes, valor stinks as a catch up system and cause it does not scale. The fact that increasing to 2/13 and 13/13 costs the same valor is illogical. The system makes no sense. Uncapping it would be fine for me, but we know who Blizzard designs the game for and it's not us. It's their fight with pro gamers.

Yes. It is way, way better. I have played an mmo that adopts it and gearing up is way more fun and rewarding when you know you are gonna get the piece of gear you want. Both systems can co-exists, but a deterministic support system should be there to give a clear and rewarding path to the player that makes them feel like they are always progressing and not wasting their time.

The "end point" for that borrowed power was something that would take months to get to and which was then extended into infinity. It felt awful. You were forced to do activities you didn't want to do and since it wasn't capped people could do this until exhaustion in order to gain an advantage, which in turn pushes everyone else to do the same to keep up. It's demented.
Having a currency you gain weekly at a cap, from whichever content one does allows this feeling of progression and none of the demented gameplay. You get to your cap in some days. You don't have to no life. You can enjoy your play time and your life. If you want to play more you can do alts or engage in the roulettes peeps like you seem to somehow enjoy.

[Weilyn]

As opposed to raiding, which of course is well known as a completely different experience every time you enter and on your 150th wipe.

Quite possibly but I haven't raided in many many years. Dungeons are the only thing I do because of time. But your point is valid.