the Naga: Story over? Deserve more spotlight?

[Tanaria]

Hasn't been done much with the Illidari, and even then we only saw it done over a decade ago. Content has been recycled into whole expansion concepts before. YOU just don't like this particular content that much and it is no one's job to get you to like something you don't. There's a lot more possibilities that there could be to the Naga empire besides what we see in Najatar. Just guessing at does not resolve the mystery. That's most reductive, narrow, limited thinking... oh my lord.

Aaaand once again it's clear you are just not reasonable on this subject because you have very specific desires for how you want things to be done. I DON'T want highborne ruins to be left just to the Alliance.

You are moving goal posts at this point so I have to just acknowledge Triceron's assertion that you simply are not arguing in good faith. The whole idea of needing to "prove you wrong" about your opinion that has already been stated by you to be largely based on your tastes is absurd.

A decade = 10 years and the Illidari have been dormant since 2018.

Now, Legion was an expansion which was a more polished version of TBC; however the difference being is that TBC ended in 2007 and Legion didn't come along until the latter half of 2016, so 9 and a half years is almost a decade between the two.

Nazjatar was 2019 and we're only just into 2023 so it's only been 3 and a half years - more of a break is needed for me, especially underwater stuff. I'm not against Naga lore as a whole, just as long as it takes place in places where it's right and in the zones that we know and love, like Ashenvale, Darkshore and Suramar. (Basically Night Elf/Nightborne locations. )

And Highborne are part of the Alliance and it's the current Highborne who have been neglected. So, if you ask me, it's only fair that the Alliance (where the Highborne currently reside) now get the bulk of Highborne lore and see Highborne ruins restored.
Blood Elf fans and Nightborne fans don't need Highborne ruins when the beauties that are Silvermoon and Suramar still stand.

I'm not moving the goal posts - I just don't want to see more undersea stuff for a while now. Naga stuff, yes - but tie the Naga stuff to the Night Elves and Nightborne, in night elf and nightborne lands.

[Efcharisto]

A decade = 10 years and the Illidari have been dormant since 2018.

Now, Legion was an expansion which was a more polished version of TBC; however the difference being is that TBC ended in 2007 and Legion didn't come along until the latter half of 2016, so 9 and a half years is almost a decade between the two.

Nazjatar was 2019 and we're only just into 2023 so it's only been 3 and a half years - more of a break is needed for me, especially underwater stuff. I'm not against Naga lore as a whole, just as long as it takes place in places where it's right and in the zones that we know and love, like Ashenvale, Darkshore and Suramar. (Basically Night Elf/Nightborne locations. )

And Highborne are part of the Alliance and it's the current Highborne who have been neglected. So, if you ask me, it's only fair that the Alliance (where the Highborne currently reside) now get the bulk of Highborne lore and see Highborne ruins restored.
Blood Elf fans and Nightborne fans don't need Highborne ruins when the beauties that are Silvermoon and Suramar still stand.

I'm not moving the goal posts - I just don't want to see more undersea stuff for a while now. Naga stuff, yes - but tie the Naga stuff to the Night Elves and Nightborne, in night elf and nightborne lands.

We barely saw any significant Naga content in Legion, and just a little bit of OPTIONAL Illidari naga+blood elf content. TBC was the last time we really saw anything like that amount of naga+blood elf content, thus why I say over a decade. We certainly didn't see additional blood elf outposts with blood elf architecture and multi-storied tents in Legion, and have NEVER seen blood elves use their considerable magical capabilities to delve into hostile environments like underwater, with the closest thing being that we had them surviving in very hostile environments like the harshest areas of Outland like Shadowmoon and Nehterstorm, even working with ethereals who did create safe havens in the Netherstorm. Having them adopt a concept like that from the Ethereals and use it to create magic bubbles where they can give us outposts to allow them to work with Naga seeking help from the Horde is exactly something the Magisters would be good for. And actually, something I would love to see is to see some Naga in Quel'thalas. A diplomatic camp of Naga on those beautiful barely used Thalassian shores representing the Naga reaching out to the only Horde members they can even remotely relate to. I'd suggest it even more for the naga to reach out to the Horde through the Nightborne but the Nightborne given they are even more closely tied, but that would require more zone phasing and thus more work, plus the Nightborne have less sway in the Horde than the Sin'dorei.

Idc if you need more of a break. I am not interested in waiting another few years or even a whole decade just because people like you are finnicky about when and where we see it. ESPECIALLY when the only places you want to see them are these low level afterthought zones that we have barely any reason to look at or spend time in after we outlevel it.

The alliance's highborne came into being SOLELY to give Night elves mages. Nightborne are highborne culturally.

You are moving goal posts. First it was that you just didn't want content with just highborne ruins. Then it's you don't want content with a significant amount of highborne ruins and say you want to be sold on the idea, asking for what would appeal to a blood elf fan in such settings. Then you want the content to only appeal in CERTAIN WAYS to a blood elf fan without recycling content or retelling a story (even though that's exactly what multiple expacs HAVE BEEN. Recycling content and retelling stories and expanding on both for the sake of creating a whole expac about it). And now you are outright stating that you can not be sold on the idea unless the Naga content does not appear anywhere NEW, especially not underwater or recently underwater, which is the whole point of what lots of us WANT.


I even GAVE you an idea for how blood elves could be involved, and am now explaining how specifically blood elven magisters and familiar zones could/would play a significant role. But you'll move the goal post even further. You'll say that doesn't make sense, (as if half of the shit Blizz does with the story to add content actually does either) or that it still isn't enough. Because you don't want anymore actual Naga homeland content. That is what you've said and it is clear you can not be swayed on that. Which is fine except it means it's not worth the time you've had me spend on you. The number of people who would be drawn in is greater than the people like you who would be pushed away.

[Tanaria]

The alliance's highborne came into being SOLELY to give Night elves mages. Nightborne are highborne culturally.

Whatever the Nightborne are - they, along with the Sin'dorei, don't need Highborne Ruins to advance their lore. Yes, we see them in those places, but it's high time that those ruins got restored and it needs to go towards the Alliance Night Elf fans.
@Mace and I might disagree on ALOT, but I think common ground can be founded here. Highborne stuff needs to be given to the actual Highborne - not to those who don't need it (Blood Elves and Nightborne.) I actually don't think many Blood Elf fans even care about the Highborne ruins stuff anyway.

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You are moving goal posts. First it was that you just didn't want content with just highborne ruins. Then it's you don't want content with a significant amount of highborne ruins and say you want to be sold on the idea, asking for what would appeal to a blood elf fan in such settings. Then you want the content to only appeal in CERTAIN WAYS to a blood elf fan without recycling content or retelling a story (even though that's exactly what multiple expacs HAVE BEEN. Recycling content and retelling stories and expanding on both for the sake of creating a whole expac about it). And now you are outright stating that you can not be sold on the idea unless the Naga content does not appear anywhere NEW, especially not underwater or recently underwater, which is the whole point of what lots of us WANT.


I even GAVE you an idea for how blood elves could be involved, and am now explaining how specifically blood elven magisters and familiar zones could/would play a significant role. But you'll move the goal post even further. You'll say that doesn't make sense, (as if half of the shit Blizz does with the story to add content actually does either) or that it still isn't enough. Because you don't want anymore actual Naga homeland content. That is what you've said and it is clear you can not be swayed on that. Which is fine except it means it's not worth the time you've had me spend on you. The number of people who would be drawn in is greater than the people like you who would be pushed away.

I don't see anything "new" if it's just 8.2, but an expansion's worth. Plus, underwater zones are NOT popular, they just aren't.
Look at Vashj'ir compared to Hyjal.

Night Elf Druid stuff triumphed over Naga/Highborne stuff because Vashj'ir was underwater and horrible to navigate. Literally, the only class I could play, whilst doing Vashj'ir was my Blood Elf Warlock, because she had unending breathe.

Blizzard knew they couldn't make Nazjatar an underwater zone - hell, the underwater boss of Eternal Palace was the least popular, so they had to create this "tidestone" story to open the sea and not make it like Vashj'ir.

And Blood Elves playing a role - again, we saw this with the Blood Elf Farstriders and Lor'themar. They were fighting against the Naga. In many situations, where Naga play a role, Night Elves, Blood Elves and Trolls are often not too far away.

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We barely saw any significant Naga content in Legion, and just a little bit of OPTIONAL Illidari naga+blood elf content. TBC was the last time we really saw anything like that amount of naga+blood elf content, thus why I say over a decade. We certainly didn't see additional blood elf outposts with blood elf architecture and multi-storied tents in Legion, and have NEVER seen blood elves use their considerable magical capabilities to delve into hostile environments like underwater, with the closest thing being that we had them surviving in very hostile environments like the harshest areas of Outland like Shadowmoon and Nehterstorm, even working with ethereals who did create safe havens in the Netherstorm. Having them adopt a concept like that from the Ethereals and use it to create magic bubbles where they can give us outposts to allow them to work with Naga seeking help from the Horde is exactly something the Magisters would be good for. And actually, something I would love to see is to see some Naga in Quel'thalas. A diplomatic camp of Naga on those beautiful barely used Thalassian shores representing the Naga reaching out to the only Horde members they can even remotely relate to. I'd suggest it even more for the naga to reach out to the Horde through the Nightborne but the Nightborne given they are even more closely tied, but that would require more zone phasing and thus more work, plus the Nightborne have less sway in the Horde than the Sin'dorei.

As mentioned, the Blood Elf Farstriders and Nightborne Mages were all fighting the Naga. The former making it clear that they viewed the Naga as "fiends" and "monsters."

I don't believe the Silvermoon Sin'dorei are making preparations to hold a close allegiance with the Naga. The Sunfury did it, in Lordaeron to survive, but even as far back as the short pre-lude story to Wrath, Aethas (for all his faults) calls out the Naga allegiance as a mistake and Lor'themar has carried that outlook on, as both he and his Farstriders were brought to Nazjatar.

[Mace]

The alliance's highborne came into being SOLELY to give Night elves mages. Nightborne are highborne culturally.

Or maybe it was always the intention? Maybe those who paid attention to the reaction to night elf lore saw that many liked the dark elf arcane user of that group. The iea that night elves were only meant to be druids forest elves is a fan creation that makes it seems anything kaldorei and magi is just forced even though it's been part of their lore since the race's very introduction, from the moment you open the manual., to the 3 volume trilogy written during the planning of WC3.

To the race having PURPLE skin, SILVER eyes (the colour of arcane), the Well of Eternity, central to their entire storyline, you quickly discover that both nature and arcane have been a part of the race.

In the kaldorei story, the arcane was the height of their greatest civilization, but now it's no where near as esteemed because of the trouble it brought, but was sill used and was practised again after cataclysm too amongst the long vigil group. There were always Highborne too, the Shen'dralar could gain rep with in classic, and as they fleshed the story out, into Suramar and Azsuna, they continued on.

The Nightborne were going to be all destroyed and the Nightfallen restored to night elves, until players wanted those models playable, then although initially they would have defaulted to the alliance like every sub-race does to the faction its main race is, they had a debate, including bringing much wanted high elves to the alliance, and decided there would be a switch.

Anyway, both the kaldorei arcane mage, Azshara, Illidan, Malfurion and Tyrande along with the sentinel also representing demon hunters, druid and priest and hunter have epitomised the fantasy range of this group.


It's also interesting that the first expansion they actually continue the kaldorei story since classic, the mages, are an integral part of it, and the follow up in legion, showing lots of night elven mage (Highborne), druid, demon hunter and wardens (as part of the Order of Elune - not much from the Sentinels and Moon Priestesses in Legion except for the ghost ones in the Cathedral/ToS). It's only BFA that we start seeing less of the Highborne kaldorei playing story roles, they are still there ofc, in the assaults, and the ghosts in Zin'Azshari ruins ofc, the naga are a night elf story too, but we see more of the blood elves begin to play a role in their night elven past, for a change. The Kaldorei focus entirely switches to Queen Tyrande, , who's presented more like a forest queen than a high priestess of the moon, but hey... Where is Malfurion in all that forest and nature themed? oh wait, he's held in reserve to come and die.. i mean, he could have at least played a vibrant role alongside Tyrande.

But these days, a man cannot shine besides a woman, without the twitter crowd calling for your head. And corporations capitulate because

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Whatever the Nightborne are - they, along with the Sin'dorei, don't need Highborne Ruins to advance their lore. Yes, we see them in those places, but it's high time that those ruins got restored and it needs to go towards the Alliance Night Elf fans.

indeed, the Sin'dorei have never needed night elf lore or stuff, but the back story was nice, shows the connection and is what allows the sin'dorei and nightborne to interact, and also in the future the kaldorei and ren'odrei too. People forget there has laready been a kaldorei/quel'dorei healing, the Thalassian elves are now free to interact with the night elves an d would likely be with the shen'drlar's caste . however we still see Thalassian hatred of nigh telves in 7.1 with Vereesa's speech.

So it would take special circumstances to unite the two of them on very good terms, and there are many interesting avenues to take - i think void elf with night elf is a very interesting dynamic, because of all the history, but also the possible connections, void elves would be keen on joining or investigating the power of the night warrior and learn from Tyrande how to control, including give their own insights. Void elves could seriously help the druids with the nightmare void problem, and give rise to void elf druids, and off course, void elves and Shen'dralar should get on well, with the ancient void knowledge of the empire with them and Highborne kinship.

They'd also get on well with demon hunters are theya re the only group to share having the burden of wielding dangeorus power and the discipline and tenacity to not give in to corruption, just like they didn't give in to corruption of the arcane like the elves of the past did. And this could also be a source of contempt for the Nightborne, who did not overcome their addiction through discipline and will power, but like the blood elves, had to have a magical fix.

But yeh, Nightborne already have Suramar and the ancient kaldorei knowledge they need to build more, but I don't think they would, they are quite content with the ancient kaldorei city that ahs been their home for likely 15,000 years - they don't need to utilise ruins.

@Mace and I might disagree on ALOT, but I think common ground can be founded here. Highborne stuff needs to be given to the actual Highborne - not to those who don't need it (Blood Elves and Nightborne.) I actually don't think many Blood Elf fans even care about the Highborne ruins stuff anyway.

I think we agree on much more than we disagee, it's just that we go a lot into the little details we disagree, or interpretations.. largely most of our disagreements have cetnred around how things should go forward rather than how things are, and how groups are perceived.

Saying that, I am totally against the Highborne stuff been removed from the kaldorei, it is an entire section of the over all race, the Priesthood and the drudis are not the only kaldorei in existence, they have demon hunters, mages, highborne, moonguard, they have city folk too, traders, crafts people of extraordinary skill, most of these were not needed or used during the long vigil for various and obvious (if you know the lore ) reasons amongst the main group, but there were other groups and many amongst the main group into those things that didn't have use for them during that period.


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I don't see anything "new" if it's just 8.2, but an expansion's worth. Plus, underwater zones are NOT popular, they just aren't.
Look at Vashj'ir compared to Hyjal.

Night Elf Druid stuff triumphed over Naga/Highborne stuff because Vashj'ir was underwater and horrible to navigate. Literally, the only class I could play, whilst doing Vashj'ir was my Blood Elf Warlock, because she had unending breathe.

Blizzard knew they couldn't make Nazjatar an underwater zone - hell, the underwater boss of Eternal Palace was the least popular, so they had to create this "tidestone" story to open the sea and not make it like Vashj'ir.

And Blood Elves playing a role - again, we saw this with the Blood Elf Farstriders and Lor'themar. They were fighting against the Naga. In many situations, where Naga play a role, Night Elves, Blood Elves and Trolls are often not too far away.

I see your point, and it's not wrong, but you sometimes don't actually respond to what a person is saying, you focus on a point, and go into it, and it's not that what you are saying is wrong, it's just not what the other person was talking about specifically there. He did make a valid point there.

What you are saying is also a factor. Vashj'ir had some issues, it's not that underwater doesn't work, how they did it didn't work quite as well. This is why Naz'jatar was not underwater.

We barely saw any significant Naga content in Legion, and just a little bit of OPTIONAL Illidari naga+blood elf content. TBC was the last time we really saw anything like that amount of naga+blood elf content, thus why I say over a decade. We certainly didn't see additional blood elf outposts with blood elf architecture and multi-storied tents in Legion, and have NEVER seen blood elves use their considerable magical capabilities to delve into hostile environments like underwater, with the closest thing being that we had them surviving in very hostile environments like the harshest areas of Outland like Shadowmoon and Nehterstorm, even working with ethereals who did create safe havens in the Netherstorm. Having them adopt a concept like that from the.

We didn't, and that is mainly because it was about the Legion and the original kaldorei group who fought them. The Darnassians all come form this region, Suramar was their capital, and the setting we first meet them in the War of the Ancients trilogy too, they are the resisting group that fought the legion and rallied the world and the remnants of their empire not destroyed to fight the legion as you well know.

While the naga could have played a significant part, as I think was originally the plan for Thal'dranash - the 7.3 island that was changed to Argus, they didn't, and off course, why would the blood elves play a significant role? It wasn't about them, as you can see , they are totally out of the picture save for profession quests and small side story in the original planning of the expansion and the themed content.

They are then written into 7.1 because after release, it was decided that 8.0 would actually have allied races and nightborne would not only be one of them but now would be on the horde. - initially Nightborne were not going to survive, we were going to wipe out Elisande's lot, and the nightfallen were going to have the Fruit restore them to their original night elven forms.. but players generated a lot of buzz for the Nightborne, and so they made perfect sense to be an expansion feature attraction, and for whatever reasons you believe were the motivation - whether horde bias, or many of the senior devs playing horde and finally willing to let the alliance have high elves to get the Nightborne on the horde, well, they went horde and because of this, the blood elves were written in favourably towards them. Even then, blood elves only have a role in the campaign to save Suramar in the 2nd half of the quest line, nothing else. It is still primarily a night elven story line about their city and showing us the arcane addiction and legion intervention first had, as it was in the books.

It was there way of telling that story without doing a time travel to the past, and while it isn't quite the same story i t has all the elements, legion amongst the elves, hubris, arcane addicted

As mentioned, the Blood Elf Farstriders and Nightborne Mages were all fighting the Naga. The former making it clear that they viewed the Naga as "fiends" and "monsters."

I don't believe the Silvermoon Sin'dorei are making preparations to hold a close allegiance with the Naga. The Sunfury did it, in Lordaeron to survive, but even as far back as the short pre-lude story to Wrath, Aethas (for all his faults) calls out the Naga allegiance as a mistake and Lor'themar has carried that outlook on, as both he and his Farstriders were brought to Nazjatar.

While you are correct they are not, I believe he was referring to the TFT/TBC alliance of naga, blood elf and night elf, which does continue in the demon hunter class order hall, but is certainly not the view of the current sin'dorei who now nkow a lot more about the naga and have had a chance to see how they behave /deal.

[Triceron]

As mentioned, the Blood Elf Farstriders and Nightborne Mages were all fighting the Naga. The former making it clear that they viewed the Naga as "fiends" and "monsters."

I don't believe the Silvermoon Sin'dorei are making preparations to hold a close allegiance with the Naga. The Sunfury did it, in Lordaeron to survive, but even as far back as the short pre-lude story to Wrath, Aethas (for all his faults) calls out the Naga allegiance as a mistake and Lor'themar has carried that outlook on, as both he and his Farstriders were brought to Nazjatar.

Time and time again, Blizzard has proven that 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' is the quickest and easiest solution to any of these problems. This even applies to downright 'villainous' factions that would never be playable ending up being playable, like the Ebon Hand .

Otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about Blood Elves on the Horde being possible because of pre-existing lore blatantly outlining how much deep-rooted emnity they have against the Horde. If anything, Blood Elves should have remained an independent faction with no lasting ties to either Alliance or Horde. But clearly, they are in the Horde, and so here we are discussing how other races can make their way into either the Alliance and Horde regardless of their ties.

Every existing race has no real reason to prefer either Alliance or Horde. The lines are arbitrary, and intentionally drawn by Blizzard. Why did Nightborne choose Horde over Alliance when both factions helped them equally in Legion? Night Elves have just as much of a connection to them historically, and have made huge leaps in accepting the Highborne and other Arcane users amongst their ranks. Any current lore reason they aren't is merely a product of the lore covering their decision to make them part of the Horde.

Lore isn't being used to define which faction the races would join. It's all a gameplay-driven decision to add a race to a particular faction, with lore being the means to explain why it happens. There's no particular reason why Worgen couldn't have been Horde, no particular reason why Blood Elves and Forsaken couldn't be Alliance, no particular reason why Pandaren even have to choose a side and break their neutrality. These are all down to gameplay driven choices, with the lore merely being the thinly-veiled explanation for why things are the way they are.

[Mace]

Time and time again, Blizzard has proven that 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' is the quickest and easiest solution to any of these problems. This even applies to downright 'villainous' factions that would never be playable ending up being playable, like the Ebon Hand .

Otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about Blood Elves on the Horde being possible because of pre-existing lore blatantly outlining how much deep-rooted emnity they have against the Horde. If anything, Blood Elves should have remained an independent faction with no lasting ties to either Alliance or Horde. But clearly, they are in the Horde, and so here we are discussing how other races can make their way into either the Alliance and Horde regardless of their ties.

Every existing race has no real reason to prefer either Alliance or Horde. The lines are arbitrary, and intentionally drawn by Blizzard. Why did Nightborne choose Horde over Alliance when both factions helped them equally in Legion? Night Elves have just as much of a connection to them historically, and have made huge leaps in accepting the Highborne and other Arcane users amongst their ranks. Any current lore reason they aren't is merely a product of the lore covering their decision to make them part of the Horde.

Lore isn't being used to define which faction the races would join. It's all a gameplay-driven decision to add a race to a particular faction, with lore being the means to explain why it happens. There's no particular reason why Worgen couldn't have been Horde, no particular reason why Blood Elves and Forsaken couldn't be Alliance, no particular reason why Pandaren even have to choose a side and break their neutrality. These are all down to gameplay driven choices, with the lore merely being the thinly-veiled explanation for why things are the way they are.

not to mention they view themselves as the continuation fo the night elves, and 7.0 is exclusively night elf and nightborne working together against the legion aligned Nightborne.

Night elves joining the alliance is even more mysterious, why would they do that based on their lore.. and as we saw, the joining just cut the race down.

We all know from an integrated serious story telling perspective, blood elves would have either remained independent or later rejoined or had some of them back with the alliance, or formed new alliances - wait, this is EXACTLY what happened.. blood elves joined Illidan, who wasn't a villain - an important anti-hero, whiles some high elves remained with the alliance.


But the force every interesting race that becomes playable into your very limited faction box, which for the alliance side they simply refused to expand, basically simply ruined or at least severely diminished many of them.

And whiles it doesn't necessarily have to be the case, their story focus has never properly continued telling the story of the races enough to do their weird direction justice.

Being in the horde and alliance is entirely a gimmick for game play. They wanted two factions, where the natural state of the story created 4, and simply did not take the time to tell how four factions become 2 again, they just go "10 years after the burning legion.." see classic cinematic.. and so began the downfall of warcraft story telling.

now we all accept it as flavour to gameplay, but our nostalgia for a better time keeps us at it.


They don't seem to be willing to take the serious effort, to properly fix it in game.. which would require full race expansion, where you can level in a race story from start to finish, that actually tells , progresses , ties in, and advances the races, establishes them creates serious strong lore for them, etc, and a means to continue on even when the future expansions move back to a centralised story on a patch of land.

[Triceron]

They don't seem to be willing to take the serious effort, to properly fix it in game.. which would require full race expansion, where you can level in a race story from start to finish, that actually tells , progresses , ties in, and advances the races, establishes them creates serious strong lore for them, etc, and a means to continue on even when the future expansions move back to a centralised story on a patch of land.

Unpopular opinion, but I felt they should have always made a second expansion/campaign for Warcraft 3 that focused on bridging WC3 into WoW. Reforged had that potential, but they dropped the ball on that and no one wants to touch that game with a 10ft pole.

[Mace]

Unpopular opinion, but I felt they should have always made a second expansion/campaign for Warcraft 3 that focused on bridging WC3 into WoW. Reforged had that potential, but they dropped the ball on that and no one wants to touch that game with a 10ft pole.

Yeh, it seems their stories are best told in games, even though htey haven't done it that well in wow.

Another opinion my brother had, is that they should actually start doing single player games. if not strategy ones, then adventure ones that actually tell proper stories, and then launch a wow expansion that explores the details/aftermath. this is originally what wow was after all, exploring hte aftermath of the fixed events of WC3. It is TBc that started telling a story, and in this new format, TBC's story would have been told in a WC4 - single player game or strategy game, and then wow's outland expansion would launch where you now went through all the little details, tying up the loose ends, going to some of the dungeons the single player game mentioned, and exploring the continent, and perhpas stopping a carry on threat from the story game or a new or re-emerging situation.

It could also prep for the next game, so we could actually have launched a wotlk expansion, to tackle on the Lich king, but his actual demise now would be in a new game.

I mean hta is hte approach they could even use now.. so many stories to tell the main one in a single player game, and you can have a main narrative in the wow expansion, but now it can focus on the peoples, the reactions and new hidden threats.. but mainly exploring the areas in the single player game as an adventurer.

[Shadowferal]

Yknow...my rewrite will only go up to MoP...well, to most of it. My plan for what comes after is to go back to the past.
My timeline only references the distant past as "mythic" and "legendary." Too many cite the "Chronicles" or whatever as a source...instead, I'd want "you" to play out the history...as a separate race and different class structure. Mechagnome, Earthen, Mogu, Anubisath, Tol'vir...etc..be there when the Forge of Wills and Forge of Origination create you, the player. Or be among the earlier titan-forged, preparing to battle the Elemental Lords...or what comes after, the war against the Black Empire. I won't change the outcome, as I'm firmly against retcons, period. And knowing that might induce a lack of interest...at first. There will be small references peppered here and there in my initial rewrite in the current time frame that will allude to earlier titan heroes...(that will be an inaccurate reference to "you") But the perspective and seeing it all firsthand may just be a wild ride.

[Ameonna]

To everyone who are sceptical about the "nagas on a mount how do you manage a non bipedal race on a mount" i want to explain to you that the way mounts works in WoW is not a problem for the nagas, let me explain it further;

You can clearly see when you summon a mount on any characters that your character be it bipedal or not is making one with the mount, actually it is because the mount and your char are merged together, when your char sumon a mount it "transeform" into a new entity, your char on a mount you can clearly see that both are merged into one when your mount move your char is moving with it in a very "weird" manner like if it was sticked to it, that is because they indead are "one"

You can clearly see also that Blizzard can do pretty much anything they want with the positioning of your char or the positioning of ANY limbs of your char on the mount, you can check it up when you mount with a draenai a vulpera or a dracthyr that the tails are placed in a very specific way that show ONLY when they mount up.

That being said, for naga it wont be any different, they can simply place their tail or their "leg" like any other tail of draenai or vulpera on a mount.

So yes, the "mounting" issue for naga is not an issue

[Triceron]

To everyone who are sceptical about the "nagas on a mount how do you manage a non bipedal race on a mount" i want to explain to you that the way mounts works in WoW is not a problem for the nagas, let me explain it further;

You can clearly see when you summon a mount on any characters that your character be it bipedal or not is making one with the mount, actually it is because the mount and your char are merged together, when your char sumon a mount it "transeform" into a new entity, your char on a mount you can clearly see that both are merged into one when your mount move your char is moving with it in a very "weird" manner like if it was sticked to it, that is because they indead are "one"

You can clearly see also that Blizzard can do pretty much anything they want with the positioning of your char or the positioning of ANY limbs of your char on the mount, you can check it up when you mount with a draenai a vulpera or a dracthyr that the tails are placed in a very specific way that show ONLY when they mount up.

That being said, for naga it wont be any different, they can simply place their tail or their "leg" like any other tail of draenai or vulpera on a mount.

So yes, the "mounting" issue for naga is not an issue

The simplest solution is have every Naga have a Visage form, similar to Dracthyr. A traditional Elf-like form that they interact with the world when the situation calls for it. This has been suggested numerous times in many fan-made Naga concepts.

So all mounting or vehicle driving is done in your visage form. Have it automatically toggle the way Worgen form always activates in combat; with a Visage form being specific to mounting or vehicle use.

[Efcharisto]

Whatever the Nightborne are - they, along with the Sin'dorei, don't need Highborne Ruins to advance their lore. Yes, we see them in those places, but it's high time that those ruins got restored and it needs to go towards the Alliance Night Elf fans.

Highborne ruins always have been and always should be part of Nightborne lore. They do need them. And while the Sin'dorei don't NEED them, they definitely aren't hurt by them for advancing their lore either and I always love seeing Sin'dorei in highborne ruins. We even see blood elf furniture occasionally used in Highborne structures.

No. I don't think it does need to be restored or go towards just Alliance Night Elf fans.

I don't see anything "new" if it's just 8.2, but an expansion's worth. Plus, underwater zones are NOT popular, they just aren't.
Look at Vashj'ir compared to Hyjal.

Night Elf Druid stuff triumphed over Naga/Highborne stuff because Vashj'ir was underwater and horrible to navigate. Literally, the only class I could play, whilst doing Vashj'ir was my Blood Elf Warlock, because she had unending breathe.

Blizzard knew they couldn't make Nazjatar an underwater zone - hell, the underwater boss of Eternal Palace was the least popular, so they had to create this "tidestone" story to open the sea and not make it like Vashj'ir.

Underwater zones are mainly unpopular because of technical issues that need to be addressed. No other valid reason. Bad argument.

Who the hell says the underwater boss of EP was the least popular?

As mentioned, the Blood Elf Farstriders and Nightborne Mages were all fighting the Naga. The former making it clear that they viewed the Naga as "fiends" and "monsters."

I don't believe the Silvermoon Sin'dorei are making preparations to hold a close allegiance with the Naga. The Sunfury did it, in Lordaeron to survive, but even as far back as the short pre-lude story to Wrath, Aethas (for all his faults) calls out the Naga allegiance as a mistake and Lor'themar has carried that outlook on, as both he and his Farstriders were brought to Nazjatar.

Who was fighting the Naga in 8.2 is irrelevant.

Idgaf about the Farstriders. They're the most boring part of all things blood elf. The Sunfury, for all we know didn't exist back in Lordaeron. That was ALL of Kael's blood elves. Not just the Sunfury. If we wanted to include ALL blood elves that work with the Naga we'd also have to talk about the Eclipsion and others as well. And that wasn't just in Lordaeron. It was in Dalaran, Outland, and Northrend as well. The fact you make these errors makes me question the significance of your input.

LMFAO the fact you even use Aethas to justify ANYTHING makes me cease to care about anything you have to say. Aethas is a clown and is barely relevant.

Doesn't matter if you believe the Silvermoon Sin'dorei are making preparations to hold a close allegiance with the Naga. They're more likely to make preparations to have diplomatic talks with them if Nagas initiate diplomacy with them more than anyone else.

Or maybe it was always the intention?

Regardless, Highborne lore and ruins are equally valid lore and relevant gameplay opportunities for Sin'dorei and Nightborne as they are for Night Elves.

While you are correct they are not, I believe he was referring to the TFT/TBC alliance of naga, blood elf and night elf, which does continue in the demon hunter class order hall, but is certainly not the view of the current sin'dorei who now nkow a lot more about the naga and have had a chance to see how they behave /deal.

The current Sin'dorei, aside from the Sunfury and Demon Hunters (whom I am still waiting to be integrated into primary Blood elf society) don't know that much about the Naga outside of what occurred in Najatar.

NO ONE would be likely to work with the Naga, unless approached by the Naga diplomats for help or an alliance (and even then it is going to be something handled cautiously by those the Naga approach), but the blood elves are the most plausible to be approached. New leadership for the Naga would make it more plausible that the Blood elves would be willing to talk to them.

The simplest solution is have every Naga have a Visage form, similar to Dracthyr. A traditional Elf-like form that they interact with the world when the situation calls for it. This has been suggested numerous times in many fan-made Naga concepts.

So all mounting or vehicle driving is done in your visage form. Have it automatically toggle the way Worgen form always activates in combat; with a Visage form being specific to mounting or vehicle use.

Actually the simplest solution is just... side saddle. For vehicle use... who cares. We don't need to know how they work the pedals with their tail. They just do. Bikes might look a LITTLE goofy but meh. Magic.

[Flatspriest]

Why would the Naga not just ride side saddle like women used to have to do all the time?

[Mic_128]

The simplest solution is have every Naga have a Visage form, similar to Dracthyr.

No, the simplest solution is

[Raisei]

For the most part, Queen Azshara's story that began 20 years ago and is culminating with Eternity's End that began 10,000 years ago with her transformation into a naga, ended in 8.2 and 8.3 of BfA.


The naga have been built up since Warcraft III as well as the 'Shadowlands' story and personally, as far as recurring bad guys/threats ago, I've always like the naga. Monstrous and vile ex-elves with a hard on to drown the planet and kill all who are not ocean-based lifeforms.


When 'Rise of Azshara' came around I was stoked. I loved the introduction of new naga variations (the crab legged ones, and specifically the "elite" tentacles-for-legs variation of naga) I felt like this revamped naga could carry as an expansion arching force.


Do you think the naga have served their purpose and their story is done? Would you like to see the naga return sometime down the line?

In theory there are still more then enough Naga left. We only beat a part of Azshara's army in a small part of Nazjatar. Most of the commanders and officers might be dead tho, so they have a similar problem as the Legion. They are headless.

However, since Azshara herself went to "the seat of real power" instead of dying there is a chance she will return one day. Likely in a story connected to the Void Lords and/or the First Ones again. She would very likely be able to use what is left of her forces then.

Personally I assume that she will ally with whatever threat the Jailer and N'zoth have seen in the future to gain more power. Consequently the Naga might be transformed into even more powerful creatures.

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No, the simplest solution is

To quote my Broomstick Instructor: "None of that side-saddle nonesense. One breeze and you fall."

[Tanaria]

Who was fighting the Naga in 8.2 is irrelevant.

Idgaf about the Farstriders. They're the most boring part of all things blood elf. The Sunfury, for all we know didn't exist back in Lordaeron. That was ALL of Kael's blood elves. Not just the Sunfury. If we wanted to include ALL blood elves that work with the Naga we'd also have to talk about the Eclipsion and others as well. And that wasn't just in Lordaeron. It was in Dalaran, Outland, and Northrend as well. The fact you make these errors makes me question the significance of your input.

It doesn't matter about who you give an f about.
The leader of the Blood Elves and his Farstrider retinue who joined with him, were killing Naga with the leader of said Elves, referring to the Naga as fiends and monsters.

Lor'themar, a former Farstrider Captain, also playing a huge role in the battle against the Naga Queen.

NO ONE would be likely to work with the Naga, unless approached by the Naga diplomats for help or an alliance (and even then it is going to be something handled cautiously by those the Naga approach), but the blood elves are the most plausible to be approached. New leadership for the Naga would make it more plausible that the Blood elves would be willing to talk to them.

Only Rommath (and it's pushing it), would ever enter into a diplomatic conversation with the Naga.
And to gain any allegiance from the Sin'dorei, the Naga would essentially have to stop being Naga in the way that we know them. They renounce Azshara, they allow Neptulon to hold free reign over the seas, uncontested, they primarily follow Sin'dorei law.

They become Snake Blood Elves in all but name.

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Highborne ruins always have been and always should be part of Nightborne lore. They do need them. And while the Sin'dorei don't NEED them, they definitely aren't hurt by them for advancing their lore either and I always love seeing Sin'dorei in highborne ruins. We even see blood elf furniture occasionally used in Highborne structures.

No. I don't think it does need to be restored or go towards just Alliance Night Elf fans.

Nightborne spent 10,000 years inside Suramar.
Suramar is their "Highborne home" in full glory - they don't need the ruins like Eldre'Thalas or Bashal'Aran or Mathystra to keep them going.

And it is time the Night Elves and their fanbase finally got something, instead of things being taken away. The biggest thing that they can be given would be Eldre'Thalas and the West Wing be opened to the Azeroth map.

North and East Wings could be merged into 1 dungeon where Alliance players do quests with the Night Elf Mages and Night Elf Druids and Horde players do quests with Nightborne Mages and Tauren Druids.

[Shadowferal]

The simplest solution is have every Naga have a Visage form, similar to Dracthyr.

While my rewrite of the naga will have a visage form, it won't be a long-lasting magic. It'll strictly be for breathing and communicating with the world above. (Their chosen ambassadors however will be the more amphibious murlocs...*looks around* Don't scoff. Once you see how they're written in you won't jeer or laugh)
The naga are built for the watery depths. People need to stop "humanizing" other races. While the naga (and other races) may display qualities that are humanistic, they are NOT human.

[Triceron]

No, the simplest solution is

Not really, since it wouldn't work for most vehicle mounts like this:


Tail would clip straight through the thing. You don't really have this problem with legs and multiple sitting positions. A Visage form would be reusing existing biped skeletons and animations.

That's why Visage would be the simplest solution.

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Actually the simplest solution is just... side saddle. For vehicle use... who cares. We don't need to know how they work the pedals with their tail. They just do. Bikes might look a LITTLE goofy but meh. Magic.

If your reply is 'who cares' then it's not exactly a simple solution, but a sloppy one.

It's not about how they work the pedals, it's how the tail doesn't really fit the cockpits at all, and would need to be scaled down and coiled up to fit appropriately. Fit for each unique cockpit, like Shredders or Flying Machines or Spider Mechs, and they'd have to fit appropriately. These mechs were all designed to fit legs in there, not a giant coiled up tail.

If the solution is just 'have the tail clip, who cares' then it's not really a solution at all.

[Mace]

Highborne ruins always have been and always should be part of Nightborne lore. They do need them. And while the Sin'dorei don't NEED them, they definitely aren't hurt by them for advancing their lore either and I always love seeing Sin'dorei in highborne ruins. We even see blood elf furniture occasionally used in Highborne structures.

No. I don't think it does need to be restored or go towards just Alliance Night Elf fans.

Agreed. While I continue to advocate for alliance night elves to have sufficiently strong Highborne involvement for night elf related stuff - after all the caste and term Highborne is strictly kaldorei -, and now Shal'dorei as a night elven off shoot race. I think sometimes the friendship with the sin'dorei has caused people to forget that the Nightborne are a kaldorei group and it is a kaldorei/sin'dorei friendship based only on shared arcane interest and addiction struggles - that represents the Azshara end time era of the kaldorei. [i state it this way, because I expect a ren'dorei/kaldorei friendship to develop but on a much more diverse basis as they have cause to connect to the priests via dark moon void knowledge and control Tyrande has learnt as well as techniques that could help other dark moon sect night elves, Highborne off course, which they should be on good terms because of shared ancestry , esp with the Shen'dralar and if the Moonguard remnant and Farondis get added to the Darnassian fold, and finally they and the druids would want to work together to solve the nightmare - allowing afar more diverse friendship - furthermore, the elven state on the alliance is in a far more dire state, so they actually have useful things to do together, like protect the dream form the void nightmare, gain greater control and power with the priest groups and help rebuild elven civilization with the Highborne group - this is afar more interesting and different than what the sin'dorei and Shal'dorei have together - because they are so similar - all you can write about is love stories or how well they get along.)

But yes, Highborne ruins are very relevant to the Shal'dorei as they are to the kaldorei, especially the Highborne kaldorei that cataclysm clearly demonstrates deeply care about restoring their civilization to the heights they once were.

I would someday love blizzard to show both Highborne groups on the alliance and horde (which they shouldn't be considering any Thalassian elf, because while Highborne descendants, they are not what we consider Highborne as they've moved on from being night elves and establish a parallel culture of their own.. Highborne refers to night elf arcane mastery, the pre-sundering era works, and the post sundering fate of the Moonguard, Shen'dralar, Nightborne and Darnassians who were once Highborne and now returned. It refers to that aspect of the kaldorei which is a huge third of the current night elf make up and the whole of the current Nightborne make up, even though not all Nightborne are Highborne - another point many don't seem to get. [I mean who do they think the guards slur lowborne at - that won't be the case if all the Nightborne were Highborne.]

There will be differences in the kaldorei Highborne and the Shal'dorei for sure. Shal'dorei would be a Highborne society in the legion era of the pre-sundering night elf age under Azshara, while the kaldorei Highborne are new phase, where they are a mix between a caste and an Order - spear heading all mage functions. - they would be more in the vein of how Highborne were culturally before addiction and arrogance took place , and when both the priesthood were a powerful caste rivalling the Highborne and the new druid order an equally powerful caste (in their way of thinking) - being corruption free which = no warlocks and a certain mindset I think Prince Farondis is written well to portray, while holding the legendary personification of the Highborne in them - this is the original lot after all, all Moonguard, Shen'dralar and those Darnassians who returned to being Highborne - so there would be differences.

[Efcharisto]

It doesn't matter about who you give an f about.

If I don't, chances are other people won't either for the same reasons.

Lor'themar, a former Farstrider Captain, also playing a huge role in the battle against the Naga Queen.

This is irrelevant. If you paid any attention you'd realize that because one of the big ideas in this thread is that playable Naga would have turned against said Queen. Also, lmfao huge role?

Only Rommath (and it's pushing it), would ever enter into a diplomatic conversation with the Naga.

Says you. I don't see how it would be pushing it for Rommath to enter into a diplomatic conversation with the Naga. And Lor'themar was willing to entreaty Orcs, Trolls and undead, despite far greater enmity between him and them in the past.

The leader of the Sunfury would also likely enter into diplomacy. While such a character has not been introduced, they almost definitely exist.

And to gain any allegiance from the Sin'dorei, the Naga would essentially have to stop being Naga in the way that we know them. They renounce Azshara, they allow Neptulon to hold free reign over the seas, uncontested, they primarily follow Sin'dorei law.

They become Snake Blood Elves in all but name.

"Allegiance" you keep using that word incorrectly.

Renouncing Azshara would not make the Naga stop being Naga. I've already stated this. Multiple god damn times.

Who the HELL says they'd have to allow Neptulon to hold free reign over the seas to get any Alliance with the Horde via the Sin'dorei. And even if that were true, (which there is 0 reason it would be) why would that make the Naga cease to be Naga as we know them?

I'm sorry... but what? Follow Sin'dorei law? Again, SAYS WHO? Just stop. Now you are making completely baseless assertions.

Nightborne spent 10,000 years inside Suramar.
Suramar is their "Highborne home" in full glory - they don't need the ruins like Eldre'Thalas or Bashal'Aran or Mathystra to keep them going.

And it is time the Night Elves and their fanbase finally got something, instead of things being taken away. The biggest thing that they can be given would be Eldre'Thalas and the West Wing be opened to the Azeroth map.

North and East Wings could be merged into 1 dungeon where Alliance players do quests with the Night Elf Mages and Night Elf Druids and Horde players do quests with Nightborne Mages and Tauren Druids.

... what you said amounts to "All the Nightborne need to keep going is one zone from an aging expac!"

That makes no sense.

The rest of what you're saying is derailing the thread.

If your reply is 'who cares' then it's not exactly a simple solution, but a sloppy one.

It's not about how they work the pedals, it's how the tail doesn't really fit the cockpits at all, and would need to be scaled down and coiled up to fit appropriately. Fit for each unique cockpit, like Shredders or Flying Machines or Spider Mechs, and they'd have to fit appropriately. These mechs were all designed to fit legs in there, not a giant coiled up tail.

If the solution is just 'have the tail clip, who cares' then it's not really a solution at all.

Sloppy and simple are not exclusive from one another.

The tail can fit the cockpits just fine coiled. Especially if the vehicle is scaled up a little.

As if the game doesn't have plenty of character models secretly clipping through stuff as is...

To quote my Broomstick Instructor: "None of that side-saddle nonesense. One breeze and you fall."

Erroneously put by your Broomstick instructor. With a good grip and proper positioning of your bottom on your saddle compared to your legs (or in this case your tail) a breeze can not do shit.

Also, notice how the tail is actually hooked back over for added stability.

This argument has been put to bed many times over.