Dungeons was more fun before M+

[Merin]

Challenge mode should exist along side M+

Also, you and your friends never did M+ as some unit and came to a conclusion that had literally no details associated with it. You can dislike something without lying about participating in it.

[LDancer]

I still wish challenge mode were a thing i was so happy i completed my mage, hunter, warlock and monk full tmog set after clearing them all in xpacs till they announce challenge mode were no longer a thing and converted into mythic+. By the time i tried them out and feel it's dog water content for me and most of my friends lost completely interest from it. Well, Mythic+ isn't for my taste, it's an another formula copy paste coming from diablo 3 rifts mob with afflixes and scale into wow bs and ppl be worrying about their Personal score time attacks, Lol Do what you do to get to your KSH/KSM/KSC.

Completely agree here. Why couldn’t the content have remained. Some don’t want the endless rift slog, and would enjoy setting a toon up to run CM for unique transmog. And when completed, there would be another toon to do it all again on.

When CMS went, my interest in alts diminished. I’m not saying remove M+ as it sings to some players interests. But CMS also we’re for another type of player that gave them challenge, and enjoyment.

[Zayele]

I believe they meant the design etc.

New dungeons have very specific streamlined designs, where OP prefers a more optional, branching and open design.
Playing new dungeons on normal/heroic doesn't change the design of it.

Nonlinear dungeons are certainly still a thing. Even the current expansion has a few - e.g. Neltharus, Algeth'ar Academy, and there are plenty of other examples from the last couple of expansions as well (think Eye of Azshara or Waycrest Manor). You can even get that 'open / exploration' experience when doing a mega-dungeon in the first few weeks after one releases. As remarked earlier in the thread, this is a concept that had been entirely abandoned from TBC all the way up until Legion.

[Kikazz]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

no they werent more fun, when M+ wasnt around.

as after you got what you wanted from them, you never went back.
and you ran out of content to do.

the Fact M+ is around adds to replayability, and people asking for it to go obviously are happy having no content, and should just stop playing.

[Hctaz]

To be fair, some of the recent changes (DF, SL, and BFA) to dungeon design was in part due to MDI and upper tier gameplay. It's very unfortunate as it means adding affixes, mob abilities, etc to slow down gameplay or prevent the old "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" gameplay which is quite boring to watch on stream.

100% agree with that take. Making things more "esports" pretty much ruins just about every franchise or game I see it happen in.

They should focus on making the game fun to play IMO instead of trying to make it fun to watch- and that goes for every game and franchise who has done something similar.

[Grimbold21]

To be fair, some of the recent changes (DF, SL, and BFA) to dungeon design was in part due to MDI and upper tier gameplay. It's very unfortunate as it means adding affixes, mob abilities, etc to slow down gameplay or prevent the old "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" gameplay which is quite boring to watch on stream.

I don't know what you have in mind when you mention the pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down. In my case, I think of Wotlk and MoP dungeons, and I was greatly disappointed by these. I recall watching TotalBiscuit's Cata beta's streams and being thrilled at the possibility of harder heroics, despite his cautionary remarks.

You mentioned before that without m+, dungeons would have a short timespan. Well, the ability to blast through a dungeon in 10mins or less is, personally, the antithesis of "fun", and of what I think should be the level of difficulty for a dungeon.

[Soikona]

no they werent more fun, when M+ wasnt around.

as after you got what you wanted from them, you never went back.
and you ran out of content to do.

the Fact M+ is around adds to replayability, and people asking for it to go obviously are happy having no content, and should just stop playing.

Yea? You make it sound like having a finishing line for content is bad. I don’t believe it is. I like to finish raids, and dungeons on the hardest difficulty and move on. Forever growing difficulty in content is not entertaining for me and many others. For me, it’s because things just hit harder and live longer. No difference between doing a 22 and a 26 for me. Miss an interrupt, accidentally pull too much, and the key is dead. It doesn’t change.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, some of the recent changes (DF, SL, and BFA) to dungeon design was in part due to MDI and upper tier gameplay. It's very unfortunate as it means adding affixes, mob abilities, etc to slow down gameplay or prevent the old "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" gameplay which is quite boring to watch on stream.

Accommodating streaming and esports, imo, is what has ruined WoW.

[Rageonit]

To be fair, some of the recent changes (DF, SL, and BFA) to dungeon design was in part due to MDI and upper tier gameplay. It's very unfortunate as it means adding affixes, mob abilities, etc to slow down gameplay or prevent the old "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" gameplay which is quite boring to watch on stream.

Have you ever seen good guilds doing high keys? Like, dunno, during MDI? Those people pull multiple groups ALONG with bosses. It's not to prevent those kind of pulls, because those pulls still happen. It's to make them challenging and not a WotLK borefest of spamming 2 button AoE rotation.

[Grimbold21]

no they werent more fun, when M+ wasnt around.

as after you got what you wanted from them, you never went back.
and you ran out of content to do.

the Fact M+ is around adds to replayability, and people asking for it to go obviously are happy having no content, and should just stop playing.

To be fair, the replayability is a double-edged sword.

Well, M+ as a whole isn't a straightforward thing. It could be said that M+ was an answer to both people who wanted harder 5 man content, as well as those who only wanted to do that particular content.

Did it make dungeons have a longer lifespan? It did, but we can't ignore the fact that when you do too much of anything - especially if you're only playing 1 thing - then eventually you'll grow tired of it.

Your point on people dropping dungeons as soon as they got what they wanted is fair, however we can't ignore that m+'s replayability dillutes the significance of gear.

[Alroxas]

Have you ever seen good guilds doing high keys? Like, dunno, during MDI? Those people pull multiple groups ALONG with bosses. It's not to prevent those kind of pulls, because those pulls still happen. It's to make them challenging and not a WotLK borefest of spamming 2 button AoE rotation.

Yes but consider the affixes, dungeon design (especially mob abilities), and even AoE caps. These were all steps (IMO) taken to counter the "pull as much as possible then burst AoE down" strategy.

You can still have challenging dungeon content but streaming and e-sports are driving both class and dungeon design in such a way that those things filter down to the rest of us. And it's not always for the better/enjoyment for the rest of the playerbase.

I don't know what you have in mind when you mention the pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down.

Go back and watch the MDI from back in Legion, then consider the changes in BFA that Blizzard made to dungeon, class, game system designs as they relate to M+. Then follow that analysis from BFA to SL to DF.

Yes, in terms of time efficiency, players will opt to gather as many mobs that you can reasonably kill before the damage gets too high for the healer to keep up with. But at the same time, you'll see that several changes over the recent expansions try to stymie time efficiency so you can't group up multiple packs (at least not easily).

Consider the change to AoE Caps, why limit them? Most raid encounters typically don't have huge AoE issues. Priority Target, Cleave fights, maybe an intermission with adds but mostly a few targets (like under 3~4).

I mean trash mobs pre legion really didn't do anything, and people would boss rush. Trash being inconsequential isn't really good design

Boss rushing only works if you overgear the dungeon to an extent. For example Grim Batol at launch was fairly difficult and required extensive use of CC but because of the non-scaling nature, eventually it became easier as player progression increased.

But this can be quite dangerous for the long term health of the game. Just look at M+ currently (especially now that valor cap is gone). You have highly geared (and high scored) players dropping down to +2 keystones for valor farming. They literally blow through dungeons super fast but it's not allowing players to learn said dungeons in M+.

Fast forward when these inexperienced players get to higher keys and are still clueless to how simple mechanics work (see other thread about Court of Stars
fails on the first boss).

CMS weren't popular so people clearly didn't want challenges (wod had CM dailies that you could complete even if you couldn't make bronze) regardless.

I dunno, MoP CM were quite popular (amongst my guildmates/friends) because of the class transmog it provided. WoD was less popular as the transmog was a weapon set (very animated but only weapons) compared to armor sets.

You don't need gear past 0 if you don't want to challenge yourself..

In total agreement with you here. Not sure why players want 421 ilv when they aren't doing the highest difficulty content in the game. Like what purpose does it solve?

For my alts (who might not get to 2.4k score), they are fine at around 400 ilv. They don't need the ~20 points of additional ilv.

[kenn9530]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Players only did dungeons when there was something to get from them, most of the time it wasnt for gear it was just for valor, mythic plus is designed to give relevant rewards and keep dungeons relevant throughout an expansion, mythic plus is far superior to anything done before.

[Grimbold21]

In total agreement with you here. Not sure why players want 421 ilv when they aren't doing the highest difficulty content in the game. Like what purpose does it solve?

For my alts (who might not get to 2.4k score), they are fine at around 400 ilv. They don't need the ~20 points of additional ilv.

My suspicion ties in with the popular argument often brought up: "the game has changed, and so have the players". You might even say it relates to what you said earlier: such people are not doing the hardest content in the game, but I'd wager they still want the best gear so they can do whatever content they're doing faster.

It somewhat confuses me that people are not doing mythic raids or high end m+, but still expect the game to reward them with gear on that level. The argument? "Why shouldn't it?"

People ought to drop this nonsense about judging others for finding and wanting prestige from such gear. It's an indication of what they've accomplished, not matter how much one wishes to dillude the argument and subsequent achievement with talks of carries.

[Cracked]

What dungeons before M+? The ones nobody ever ran after first 3 days of expansion? Even challenge modes you did once for gold and never touched again unless you boosted it for gold.

[Rageonit]

Yes but consider the affixes, dungeon design (especially mob abilities), and even AoE caps. These were all steps (IMO) taken to counter the "pull as much as possible then burst AoE down" strategy.

What you're talking about is not "strategy"; pulling everything in sight to spam AoE buttons is a "non-strategy", that's the whole point - and the changes made to dungeons made proper strategy a requirement. Strategy is something that requires planning and execution - it's exactly what you can see in MDI pulls.

So it was more to counter the mindless "gameplay" (I was there, and it was mindless); and only to a certain extent. Why? Becasue even nowadays you can easily do that in lower keys. You can mess up interrupts, stand in fire and still kill packs. It only becomes impossible (as it should) at a certain level of gameplay.

[dacoolist]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Here's the situation OP: you know you can just run the normal dungeon and move along right? The issue here is this: ALL I DO in wow right now is log in Monday - Friday and run 1-2 hours of Mythic+ , I don't Raid, I'm not currently PVP'ing or doing anything else in the game.. If you were to take out M+ that's literally wow for me..

So instead of trying to delete wow for idk at least 2 million characters on RIO then I think the option you have is to just run the normal dungeon and move on so that the rest of us can have fun?

[procne]

You mentioned before that without m+, dungeons would have a short timespan. Well, the ability to blast through a dungeon in 10mins or less is, personally, the antithesis of "fun", and of what I think should be the level of difficulty for a dungeon.

Weird, because that's how dungeons were before m+. I remember doing the daily heroic dungeon in WoD and blasting through packs and bosses like through butter, just to get some bag of goodies

[Gaidax]

To be fair, some of the recent changes (DF, SL, and BFA) to dungeon design was in part due to MDI and upper tier gameplay. It's very unfortunate as it means adding affixes, mob abilities, etc to slow down gameplay or prevent the old "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" gameplay which is quite boring to watch on stream.

In case you did not notice in MDI - "pull as much trash as possible and AoE burst down" is very much alive and well despite the affixes and what not, except now you need actual skill to handle it all.

- - - Updated - - -

Having to do a 20 to stay relevant is what has made me quit raiding, and without raiding there is nothing in the game for me. A 15 was tolerable, but 20’s are just horribly boring.

Try to actually do damage or get people who can do damage. Or better yet, simply guild run.

When I see pugs rolling in with their 50-60k overalls for 20s, it is a pain in the ass. I run 20s only in guild where I know I won't get bads who can't do damage and make key last eternity.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea? You make it sound like having a finishing line for content is bad. I don’t believe it is. I like to finish raids, and dungeons on the hardest difficulty and move on. Forever growing difficulty in content is not entertaining for me and many others. For me, it’s because things just hit harder and live longer. No difference between doing a 22 and a 26 for me. Miss an interrupt, accidentally pull too much, and the key is dead. It doesn’t change.

So... don't?

It's precisely why I only do 20s, because it's a last stop in M+ where you get anything of use - that is your finishing line. Nobody forces you to do 26 or shit like that.

I just don't get these takes, if 26 would give you something you can't have in 20, I'd understand - but it doesn't, it's just a pure self-pleasuring for score.


===

Honestly this whole thread is one hot take after the other. You ok, people? One guy hates the replayability, another feels forced to do 26s because there is no finishing line (where there is), then some guy hates M+ dungs take so much, when in fact you can clear them sub 20 mins with any sort of decent group even without MDI BS.

What a weird world here in MMOC, just the usual I guess.

[potis]

My suspicion ties in with the popular argument often brought up: "the game has changed, and so have the players". You might even say it relates to what you said earlier: such people are not doing the hardest content in the game, but I'd wager they still want the best gear so they can do whatever content they're doing faster.

Its the lack of knowledge? Intelligence? Game experience? to tell apart games, genres, gameplays, call it whatever.

So when they game hop from one game to another, into games that have a different reward structure for multiple reasons (lack of content, slow updates) or a simply irrelevant gearing system like GW2 or ESO where despite the game being good for -what it is-, reaching maximum gear levels is easy, when obviously its not its main target as a game.

Or you have other weirdos that think that because they managed to clear a boss in a normal raid with a pug after trying 10 times once in their lifetime, they are somehow considered "raiders", and therefor the game must change, so they can get the maximum rewards also, not sure how this logic appears, but i have seen it on here.

And then the butthurts, that see others of their same level that cant actually play the game they buy boosts because they can afford it IRL, therefor the game must change so they can get the gear also, without the need to buy boosts, despite the game being exactly like this now..No, it must change so no boosts are required, but when you explain it "Dude..the game is like this now, boosts arent required, you are just bad", nope, reward must be given for existing, so boosts wont be needed.

In other words, people on here like showing how clueless and terrible they are at games, and how taking the majority of people on here seriously is a mistake.

[Coldkil]

M+ saved the game. With more and more people playing the game solo or basically being used to being able to play however and whenever they wanted, M+ made possible for this kind of players to have a relevant progression.

The downside is that now you don't need a guild, a group or even to be a decent human being, because the M+ playstyle allows people to treat others as disposable NPCs wothout basically any repercussion. The "pushing to the max" group of people is actually a very very low % of the playerbase, most people only care about getting their gear and either stop playing when reached a certain threshold or roll alts, and other players are just a needed tool much like the dungeon finder or r.io

I love how M+ is structured. I don't like the playstyle and how most of the community devolved. If only raids instead of keeping their outdated structure took inspiration from M+ and evolved into a more modern system.

[jeezusisacasual]

M+ saved the game. With more and more people playing the game solo or basically being used to being able to play however and whenever they wanted, M+ made possible for this kind of players to have a relevant progression.

The downside is that now you don't need a guild, a group or even to be a decent human being, because the M+ playstyle allows people to treat others as disposable NPCs wothout basically any repercussion. The "pushing to the max" group of people is actually a very very low % of the playerbase, most people only care about getting their gear and either stop playing when reached a certain threshold or roll alts, and other players are just a needed tool much like the dungeon finder or r.io

I love how M+ is structured. I don't like the playstyle and how most of the community devolved. If only raids instead of keeping their outdated structure took inspiration from M+ and evolved into a more modern system.

Before M+ i would raid weekly until we cleared the content on Mythic granted i kind of talked to them but it was still the say way i view the people i pug with in seasons now as hopefully good enough people to tolerate be around until i accomplish my own personal goals. Now i was not an asshole but i sold CMode carries with my mates not my guild. I compare it to how modern society as a whole operates ( here in the UK ).

M+ is the only reason why i sub for a few weeks each season because without it i would have stopped playing WoW a long time ago and i even gave raiding a chance this season its just to much of a long form content that requires more scheduling when i just want pick up and play in every game i operate in, i want more LoL less Everquest if that makes sense. Raiding being a relic from the days of everquest minus the non instanced bosses is what hurts the game more then anything. Another thing is how the overall raiding community views those who want to learn on the job so to speak who refuse to read guides and instead take a more natural learn as you go approach ( but also the mechanics have gotten so much harder i wonder if thats even possible ) but the smaller raid size was good at the very least.

Its not 2009 anymore they are competing with every single online gaming space which has far more connectivity then WoW.