Who were the souls that didn't deserve a chance in Revendreth?

[Calfredd]

I don't think the Maw rightly existed until the Jailer was sent there by the other 4 Eternal Ones for betraying his sacred duty.

Even then, the plot with Denathrius was only after the Jailer was locked up in the Maw. Now how long Denathrius was corrupt until then is another discussion.

[Palapop]

I still hope Shadowlands was just a bad dream. Lore wise especially.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I am still mad Zul'jin ended up in Revendreth, yet a monster like Vashj ended up in Maldraxxus.

Should he have gone to Bwonsamdi? Unless he's the soul that he lost a long time ago before Vol'jin.

[Revamp Man]

Garrosh would have gone to the maw because he refused to repent but he was milked

[ZazuuPriest]

Not at all. There are so many souls in the Universe, that you prolly won't find many bad Azeroth souls at Revendreth, let alone the Maw, due to the supply being so high lmaooo

So many souls in the universe and Azeroth denizens make up such a large portion of important covenant beings

[Aucald]

Even then, the plot with Denathrius was only after the Jailer was locked up in the Maw. Now how long Denathrius was corrupt until then is another discussion.

I would say even that is open to speculation. During the cinematic that plays on the Jailer's death, Denathrius' words are more conciliatory than accusatory, unlike the rest of his peers - that may be down to him fundamentally agreeing with Zovaal's position and not his actions, or it could imply that Denathrius was surreptitiously providing him material support even during his rebellion as the former Arbiter and continued to do so despite his imprisonment and exile from the pantheon of Eternal Ones.

As Denathrius' story appears to not be over, perhaps we'll learn more when and if he re-enters the story in the future.

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Garrosh would have gone to the maw because he refused to repent but he was milked

Garrosh was likely sent to the Maw as a gift from Denathrius, given the apparently prodigious amounts of anima his soul could provide.

[Powerogue]

Well let's just say I saw Lilian's dad there and there wasn't any option to save him.

Sylvanas: At last, after 10,006 1/2 years, the very last soul freed for re-judgement. Benedictus Voss.

Arbiter: ....

Lilian Voss: ....

B. Voss: Would it help if I said I was sorry?

[Khaza-R]

Well let's just say I saw Lilian's dad there and there wasn't any option to save him.

Sylvanas: At last, after 10,006 1/2 years, the very last soul freed for re-judgement. Benedictus Voss.

Arbiter: ....

Lilian Voss: ....

B. Voss: Would it help if I said I was sorry?

Could actually lead to an interesting villain arc in the future. Considering Sylvanas doesn't really know who was unjustly trapped in the Maw and who actually deserved to be there. I'm imaging she frees some heinous spirit, who did unspeakable things on some other world, and they evade being judged by the Arbiter again just to run amok in the Shadowlands or beyond.

[ABK Morgan]

Afaik we didnt come across Nathanos again either, not sure why, unless Blizz decided his ending with Tyrande in the pre-patch was all that was necessary for an ending.
Strange seeing as he was complicit with Sylvanas for all her misdoings.

[Powerogue]

Could actually lead to an interesting villain arc in the future. Considering Sylvanas doesn't really know who was unjustly trapped in the Maw and who actually deserved to be there. I'm imaging she frees some heinous spirit, who did unspeakable things on some other world, and they evade being judged by the Arbiter again just to run amok in the Shadowlands or beyond.

While possible, I for one hope not. The point of that arc was that having Sylvanas do this would allow for more healing for those harmed and generally just accomplish more good for the universe compared to decapitating her and hanging the head in Orgrimmar like we've done to previous supervillains.

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Afaik we didnt come across Nathanos again either, not sure why, unless Blizz decided his ending with Tyrande in the pre-patch was all that was necessary for an ending.
Strange seeing as he was complicit with Sylvanas for all her misdoings.

My current interpretation is that voice that we heard in the River of Souls crying out for Sylvanas to save them was him, and she never even knew he was down there. They might reunite briefly, only for him to have to go to some other afterlife and never see her again, or he might already be a pile of Soul Ash she has to sweep into a bin.

[loras]

Oh, I agree totally. I always liked Garithos, even if he was controversial figure. Unfortunately seems like he's too much for today's WoW.

I, myself would love to see him back, even if only as another boss to kill. My dream in the past was to have him as twin-style fight together with Daelin Proudmore. Would have been fun to see those two together.

Yeah, i suppose the Infinite shenanigans could allow for that to happen, sadly you're probably right that present WoW would probably have an aneuryism if they tried to make genuinely good content involving Garithos.

[bullseyed]

According to the lore of the Maw, it was reserved for souls whose existence itself was a threat to the Shadowlands and the greater machinery of Death - basically, anyone who shared in the crime that originally got Zovaal put there. Due to the fact that Revendreth's leadership was corrupt and souls were being sent there illicitly long before the machinery of Death was broken in Legion, it's hard to really quantify who, if anyone, wound up there from a direct sentence by the previous Arbiter. It's possible that the four giants Bahmethra, Hrestimorak, Nilganihmaht, and Salaranga were sentenced to the Maw by the second Arbiter - although it's unknown if this was a direct sentence or if they simply failed to be rehabilitated in Revendreth (or were again illicitly sent to aid the Jailer by Sire Denathrius).

Varithoman the Penitent is another possible candidate for direct sentencing, but beyond him being the Jailer's personal chronicler we have no real lore on this entity.

It is really odd to say "Zovaal" in one sentence and "the previous Arbiter" in the next. Why not just say Zovaal both times? He is the real arbiter.

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Well, we know of a few people that were sent there by the Arbiter-Automa. Namely the group of giants that then rebelled against Zovaal and were subsequently turned into disembodied hands for us to ride as mounts.

But in general it seems to be extremely rare. Probably you need to have tried something bad on a planetary scale or disrupted the order of life and death in a fundamental way. Post-SLs Sylvanas would most likely be a candidate.

But at the same time, there are logicstical reasons why this happens rarely. The anima that strong souls deliver would go to waste (or worse, to the Jailer) if they were sent down there. Much better to torture them in Revendreth for a few millenia to use them as batteries, as happened with both Kael and Garrosh. At least in theory that anima would benefit the Shadowlands as a whole.

There was no jailer when Zovaal was the arbiter. So people "properly" sent to the maw would not be giving "anima to the jailer" as there was no jailer.

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The biggest issue with Shadowlands isn't really its extended narrative but rather the characterization of the many NPCs who are part of said story - from its marquee villain the Jailer, who suffers from an appalling lack of gravitas, to the characterization of Sylvanas and Tyrande who are forced into 2-dimensional roles to facilitate the story. Beyond that, though; the structure of the story is at least mechanically sound.

That's what happens when you retcon the story midway thru and scrap a tier due to people not understanding the original story.

[Aucald]

It is really odd to say "Zovaal" in one sentence and "the previous Arbiter" in the next. Why not just say Zovaal both times? He is the real arbiter.

There have been three Arbiters that we know of. The first one was Zovaal or the Jailer, the second one is unnamed and is the one I referred to as the previous Arbiter or the second Arbiter, and the third and current Arbiter is Pelegos. As the Maw didn't exist prior to Zovaal being sent there, and the four giants predate Pelegos as the Arbiter, it could only be the previous or second unnamed Arbiter who sent them to the Maw (assuming that they bypassed Revendreth).

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That's what happens when you retcon the story midway thru and scrap a tier due to people not understanding the original story.

Perhaps, but I would say it's difficult to not understand or misunderstand a story that was never related. As for the characterization issues, except for the Jailer they predate Shadowlands and mostly stem from issues with BfA. The Jailer unfortunately has all his gravitas and build-up done mimetically behind the scenes - I guess the closest analogy I can think of is that the Jailer is all stolen valor, with his threat as a villain more or less stolen from other figures as he was retroactively plugged into previous events. It's not the best way to build up a major character and though it can be done that way, it requires a deft hand and more than a little foreshadowing, neither of which were present for Zovaal's ultimate inclusion.

[Aurabolt]

The Jailer unfortunately has all his gravitas and build-up done mimetically behind the scenes - I guess the closest analogy I can think of is that the Jailer is all stolen valor, with his threat as a villain more or less stolen from other figures as he was retroactively plugged into previous events. It's not the best way to build up a major character and though it can be done that way, it requires a deft hand and more than a little foreshadowing, neither of which were present for Zovaal's ultimate inclusion.

...Correct and Blizz clearly realized their mistake too late. They also realized too late they worked themselves into a corner in terms of SL's storytelling. At least when they ran into similar problems with WoD they changed the ending mid-expansion (Grom Hellscream was clearly being built up to be the final boss but that was changed in favor of Gul'Dan/Archimonde for continuity into Legion). The quality of WoD's story was sacrificed mid-expansion for Legion. To their credit, Blizz is trying to salvage plot points from WoD with the playable Mag'har Orcs and other things though.

With SL, it's clear by now they mostly want to forget that expansion ever happened. About five significant things happened in SL Lorewise:

• We learn about the system of Death: Obviously the most important thing. Bastion, Ardenweld, Maldraxxus and Rivendereth as well as Oribos, The Maw and Zereth Mortis are places we visit but it's made clear they are an untold number of realms in the Shadowlands.
• We learn the Nathrezim were created by Sire Denathrius: Probably the second-biggest revealation lorewise. We've seen them cause all kinds of grief on Azeroth but in the grand scheme of things, they were just killing time. Among those things include prettymuch being responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion AND Breaking the Automata Arbiter. They were the ones who proposed to Sargeras that they infuse Argus' World Soul with Death Magic so the Legion would respawn instantly. What it also did was ensure when Argus was slain, the Automata Arbiter would Blue Screen.
• We learn about the First Two Arbiters: Goes without saying. Zovaal The Jailer was the First Arbiter (hence the hole in his chest). He became disillusioned after Millenia of sorting countless souls and tried to break the system of Death. He was banished to The Maw and subsequently replaced by an unnamed Automata Arbiter simply referred to as "The Arbiter". The First Ones chose a machine as the second Arbiter to avoid a repeat of what happened with Zovaal but since it didn't have a heart, souls were just sorted based on data and special circumstances weren't taken into account. When the Automata Arbiter Blue Screened after Legion, all the souls simply went into The Maw to empower Zovaal.
• Pelegos becomes the Third Arbiter: When Pelegos became the new Arbiter he was able to stop all new souls from going straight to The Maw and sort them to where they should go. This stopped Zovaal from getting an endless power boost among other things. After Zovaal is dealt with, Sylvanas is exiled to The Maw to find and send every soul sent there after the Second Arbiter Blue Screened to Pelegos who would judge and send them where they belonged.
• Time Skip on Azeroth Post-SL: We know that time flows differently in the Shadowlands from the Mortal Realm. It's revealed two years pass during SL and another three years pass after it. King Anduin Wrynn, who was MC'd by Zovaal falls into depression after his experience goes on hiatus. Turalyon becomes Regent Lord of Stormwind in his absence. Horde side, Lorthe'mar Thera and High Arcanist Thallysra get married.

...That's about it in terms of big stuff.

SL could have been the best expansion to date--in terms of storytelling--if Blizzard eluded to what's revealed in it in past expansions. You do find out anecdotally during SL about a lot of things but it would've been MUCH more impactful if we got hints in advance. I look at the Nathrezim being revealed to have predated The Legion as a BIG one. Blizz missed their biggest window with this in Legion. They could have had one or two Dreadlords you encounter reveal their true loyalties lie with a power even greater than Sargeras. THAT would've kept you guessing into BFA. Then when SL is announced, you assume it's the Jailer when it fact it's Sire Denathrius.

My point is foreshadowing and pointing to events to come is extremely important in Fantasy storytelling. The art has largely been lost over the last 25 years mostly because of the internet and social media. People want to know all the details and spoilers up front and content creators are under enormous pressure from consumers to oblige.

[Aucald]

My point is foreshadowing and pointing to events to come is extremely important in Fantasy storytelling. The art has largely been lost over the last 25 years mostly because of the internet and social media. People want to know all the details and spoilers up front and content creators are under enormous pressure from consumers to oblige.

I think what the Jailer really needed, at least in the WoW context, was what I refer to as the N'Zoth Treatment. Give him about a 2-3 expansion lead-up with oblique references - the occasional offhand mention, the occasional bit of flavor lore, etc. Slowly let that build over time until you have actual marquee NPCs and such making references to him. Then you'll have built up at least some degree of scaffolding for presentation, and only need to finally give him a chance in the limelight. The Jailer had no such build-up and it was left to us to shoehorn him into existing lore, with decidedly mixed results.

[GabrielKnight]

I try not to think much about Shadowland's lore, mostly because I'm still pissed about how they handled Arthas. Seriously? Not even a goodbye message for Jaina and Uther? He deserved better.

It's sad how the current writes are full of resentment for the story that came before them and the world was built upon.

[Aurabolt]

I think what the Jailer really needed, at least in the WoW context, was what I refer to as the N'Zoth Treatment. Give him about a 2-3 expansion lead-up with oblique references - the occasional offhand mention, the occasional bit of flavor lore, etc. Slowly let that build over time until you have actual marquee NPCs and such making references to him. Then you'll have built up at least some degree of scaffolding for presentation, and only need to finally give him a chance in the limelight. The Jailer had no such build-up and it was left to us to shoehorn him into existing lore, with decidedly mixed results.

True.

It's why I said what I said in that paragraph. The product changed to keep pace with consumers. They basically can't do longterm storytelling anymore but at the same time, a large percentage of people whine about Blizz creating new lore or revising established lore every expansion. If they didn't do that, WoW could have just ended at Wrath. Or MoP. Or Legion. Or BFA. Maybe. LOL.

[Nymrohd]

I think what the Jailer really needed, at least in the WoW context, was what I refer to as the N'Zoth Treatment. Give him about a 2-3 expansion lead-up with oblique references - the occasional offhand mention, the occasional bit of flavor lore, etc. Slowly let that build over time until you have actual marquee NPCs and such making references to him. Then you'll have built up at least some degree of scaffolding for presentation, and only need to finally give him a chance in the limelight. The Jailer had no such build-up and it was left to us to shoehorn him into existing lore, with decidedly mixed results.

Reference him during Legion by having some followup to the Helya deal or just having Helya drop a clue about a Jailer. Actually drop hints during BfA about what Sylvanas was doing. We were supposedly investigating but in practice we learned nothing. Let him show up in one of the Afterlife shorts and do a decent job making him a menace. It really wasn't that hard

[Le Conceptuel]

I try not to think much about Shadowland's lore, mostly because I'm still pissed about how they handled Arthas. Seriously? Not even a goodbye message for Jaina and Uther? He deserved better.

It's sad how the current writes are full of resentment for the story that came before them and the world was built upon.

It's a pathetic obsession with one-upping the previous writers to build up their preferred characters and new concepts—part of it almost felt spiteful towards the audience that dared to prefer the lore which came before to the lore which was established after. Is "let Arthas be forgotten" not the most transparent part of that? Yet, the great irony is that Arthas remains a memorable character, and more will keep him in mind and heart than anybody will the likes of, say, Pelagos or nu-Sylvanas. The defilement of old lore for the benefit of the new was a central feature of that expansion, with every concept proposed there being something akin to "here's something that already existed, but BETTER (trust us, we'll tell you but not show you)".

[DracoTH]

Evidently, Sicco Thermaplugg is a worse person than Kael'Thas or Garrosh, both of whom went to Revendreth, and both Kel'Thuzad and that one doctor from Scholomance, who both went to Maldraxxus.

Well, I mean... Sicco is worse than Kael'Thas, Garrosh? Idk, I think they could be on the same level, but if not, Sicco would be worse, at least Garrosh had a twisted view of honor, Kel'Thuzad and the other doctor from Scholomance were part of the Jailer's plan.

And why do I think Sicco is worse? He didn't care at all for the other gnomes, a gnome that killed other gnomes wanting power, and even if his plan failed he didn't regret anything, he was a horrible being, he is no gnome any more.

Yes, I'm a Gnome enjoyer