1. #14141
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The point is you can't build up to Infinity War/Endgame, and then sustain that level of engagement.
    Sure, that's part of the issue, but it's a bit of a different issue. Then again - it's their job to come up with something better than Infinity War/Endgame. Whether or not they can is a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not every film or show needs universe-shattering stakes.
    This is a common argument I hear, but imo it's more of a deflection. It's (at least implicitly) equating the quality of the experience with the gravity of the stakes involved - and I don't think it's that easy. At all. You can have great, epic stories without "universe-shattering" stakes. In fact, I find it very important to NOT slip into the death spiral of power-inflating one-upmanship by having every new set of stakes beat the previous ones. That gets out of hand real fast.

    Now, it's understandable WHY people would make that equivocation, and it's by no means easy to follow an act like Infinity War/Endgame. But it's not like you need the bigger massive big boom-boom that beats the previous massive big boom-boom in order to be a better movie. Look at, say, Star Wars, and how many people would argue that Empire Strikes back is better than A New Hope despite it not really having stakes near as big as the Death Star.

    And that's just not happening here. At least for me.

  2. #14142
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    what they need to nail is dr doom.

    almost all the recent kang stuff in comics is kang vs doom, kang vs doom. and weve got all this bruhaha about doom showing up soon and rumors doom might be the first villain to get his own movie.

    i think either doom is going to be the secret thanos of the multiverse saga or this one is gonna end with kang vs doom and then doom is the next next thanos
    I love Doom, but he doesn't translate easily. The problem is he's goofy. And terrifying. You've got to somehow build a character who can simultaneously believably take the place of God and hold the entire universe together out of sheer strength of will, and say lines that are the cheesiest goddamned things ever, speaking in the 3rd person all the time. You somehow have to have someone deliver lines like "Now you all shall feel the wrath of DOOM!" or "Doom shall aid you but only because Doom wills it." and have that actually be scary and powerful, rather than provoke a laugh.

    Otherwise, you may as well have Squirrel Girl swarm him with squirrels and sit on him till the cops show up, because he's never going to be less silly than that.

    I'm sure it can be done. I just don't see an easy path there; you need perfect casting. I do agree that a better intro for Doom would be a Doom-centered film entirely, but they're gonna have to be careful that Doom still presents as an anti-villain, not an anti-hero, the inverse of Loki basically. And since he's a brutal totalitarian, it has to be clear his ideological views are brutal and harmful, otherwise the whole thing'll come off as pro-totalitarianism. All those are challenges to doing this "right".


  3. #14143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i had this argument with a friend of mine who has hated the mcu since endgame. he was telling me it doesnt seem like they have a plan and none of it feels connected anymore and he kept saying the infinity stone and thanos arc was so strong and i was like dude. thanos didnt even show up until guardians and he was like NO HE SHOWED UP IN AVENGERS and i was like yeah he smiled at the end but the only thing connecting phase 1 were things like rdj or nick fury showing up at the end (almost like a certain sorcerer supreme) and a few infinity stones that WE DIDNT EVEN KNOW WERE ALL INFINITY STONES YET, like the tesseract, we didnt know it was an infinity stone until later, or the stone that was inside jane.

    i feel like people just forget phase 1 tbh and how similar it is to phase 4. kang has already had more dialog and screentime than thanos did at his point in his arc.

    what they need to nail is dr doom.

    almost all the recent kang stuff in comics is kang vs doom, kang vs doom. and weve got all this bruhaha about doom showing up soon and rumors doom might be the first villain to get his own movie.

    i think either doom is going to be the secret thanos of the multiverse saga or this one is gonna end with kang vs doom and then doom is the next next thanos
    this post here, you nail it. This is all building towards building two threats up: Kang and the Skrulls, with the Multiverse being a backdrop to both. The Marvels and Secret War D+ series will build the Skrulls up as an enemy, and other movies/Loki will build Kang & his alternates up as an enemy. I have faith in their plan; they delivered us the fantastic Phase 1, 2 and 3 which culminated in IW & Endgame, they can repeat that and you just know that they have a solid plan moving forward.

    As for Dr Doom I think the reason we haven't seen a great Doom (or F4 for that matter) is because of casting. But if there is one thing that Marvel do well it's casting. Even some of the worse movies in the MCU have had good casting.

  4. #14144
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I love Doom, but he doesn't translate easily. The problem is he's goofy. And terrifying. You've got to somehow build a character who can simultaneously believably take the place of God and hold the entire universe together out of sheer strength of will, and say lines that are the cheesiest goddamned things ever, speaking in the 3rd person all the time. You somehow have to have someone deliver lines like "Now you all shall feel the wrath of DOOM!" or "Doom shall aid you but only because Doom wills it." and have that actually be scary and powerful, rather than provoke a laugh.

    Otherwise, you may as well have Squirrel Girl swarm him with squirrels and sit on him till the cops show up, because he's never going to be less silly than that.

    I'm sure it can be done. I just don't see an easy path there; you need perfect casting. I do agree that a better intro for Doom would be a Doom-centered film entirely, but they're gonna have to be careful that Doom still presents as an anti-villain, not an anti-hero, the inverse of Loki basically. And since he's a brutal totalitarian, it has to be clear his ideological views are brutal and harmful, otherwise the whole thing'll come off as pro-totalitarianism. All those are challenges to doing this "right".
    they need a james earl jones level voice, even if it means pulling a vader and having the voice actor and screen actor seperate. and he should have the mask on as much as possible
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  5. #14145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    they need a james earl jones level voice, even if it means pulling a vader and having the voice actor and screen actor seperate. and he should have the mask on as much as possible
    Tom Hardy or Alan Ritchson?

  6. #14146
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I am aware. The projections are still 90-120m though.
    Which would make it the third highest opening weekend in a February. Only behind Black Panther and Deadpool.

    I don't know why you seem to think it's as terrible as you're making it sound.
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  7. #14147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I am aware. The projections are still 90-120m though.
    Is that considered good or bad? Your comment "brutal" confused me which way the bruteness will go. Win or loss?
    /spit@Blizzard

  8. #14148
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Is that considered good or bad? Your comment "brutal" confused me which way the bruteness will go. Win or loss?
    If they hit 100m it would be okay and they can save face. 120, which is generous, would be successful. Less than 100 on a holiday weekend would be embarrassing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Which would make it the third highest opening weekend in a February. Only behind Black Panther and Deadpool.

    I don't know why you seem to think it's as terrible as you're making it sound.
    All projections are over estimated. The low RT score, having a few poorly recirved films and under performing in a row is not being viewed positively right now.

    Iger said he was giving department head's more release freedom but is holding them more accountable. This was a direct comment on the performing status of the D+ and franchise films.

    If Antman doesn't hit the century, they will look at this as another poorly positioned film in these last two release slates.

  9. #14149
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    If they hit 100m it would be okay and they can save face. 120, which is generous, would be successful. Less than 100 on a holiday weekend would be embarrassing.

    - - - Updated - - -


    All projections are over estimated. The low RT score, having a few poorly recirved films and under performing in a row is not being viewed positively right now.

    Iger said he was giving department head's more release freedom but is holding them more accountable. This was a direct comment on the performing status of the D+ and franchise films.

    If Antman doesn't hit the century, they will look at this as another poorly positioned film in these last two release slates.
    Even at 90 million it's still the third highest opening weekend for any February release. Low RT scores don't mean box office failure, much like high RT scores don't guarantee success.

    Phase 4 was generally poorly received, outside of NWH and Wakanda Forever, the latter helped rebuild some public faith in the MCU. They're banking on Kang to be the main appeal to people seeing this film, and the general lack of cinema releases since Avatar 2 lately means audiences are hungry for something. Also it's a visual spectacle that won't transcribe as well on home screens, bit like watching an Avatar movie, they don't look anywhere near as good on your TV as they do on screen.

    I think it'll do fine, won't be breaking box office records but it'll certainly be a good seller. Expecting Guardians 3 to be the biggest MCU hit this year.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  10. #14150
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Even at 90 million it's still the third highest opening weekend for any February release. Low RT scores don't mean box office failure, much like high RT scores don't guarantee success.
    The RT score is embarrassing for Disney. This is why they deflected from engagement on Antman.

    Being a hit for Feburary isn't relevant. They want all these films to clear a 100 million opening at a minimum. The 3rd film in the franchise, with more stars, one holiday weekend ought to clear higher- most think it won't.

    It's about perception of the brand at this point. Also why they pulled The Little Mermaid trailer from the superbowl, it's being recut after so-so focus.

    Even The Marvels was recut after focus scores were low. There is a whole musical planet scene in the Marvels that didn't play well, for example.

    The last investor call for Disney was about assuring people the brand was going to refocus on creative quality and 4 quadrant performance. Which Disney has not been doing during Chapek's tenure. (There is some failings with ancillary too)

    So from the industry POV, this Antman movie is contentious. Hence the projections and talk on the street.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2023-02-18 at 04:27 PM.

  11. #14151
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    I sometimes get the feeling that Fencers hypes up projects he/she is involved with and the other way around. I could be wrong though...

  12. #14152
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    I sometimes get the feeling that Fencers hypes up projects he/she is involved with and the other way around. I could be wrong though...
    I don't have anything to do directly with these blockbusters. I'm just reading the trades and emails afforded to me and speaking on what piques my interest. None of the things I talk about are super-secret and one can go and track down the information on their own. My only claim to fame is Hotel Transylvania, haha.

    Most stuff is under NDA. If I talked about many of the things I work on directly, I would be living under a bridge grilling a rat. I am free to comment on what proposals are sent out because media companies send those out to everyone- that is how they are bid on. Anyone can listen to investor calls too.

    Unless you want to ask me about product analytics, I am just a regular gal talking about the movies and the business of movies.

  13. #14153
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't have anything to do directly with these blockbusters. I'm just reading the trades and emails afforded to me and speaking on what piques my interest. None of the things I talk about are super-secret and one can go and track down the information on their own. My only claim to fame is Hotel Transylvania, haha.

    Most stuff is under NDA. If I talked about many of the things I work on directly, I would be living under a bridge grilling a rat. I am free to comment on what proposals are sent out because media companies send those out to everyone- that is how they are bid on. Anyone can listen to investor calls too.

    Unless you want to ask me about product analytics, I am just a regular gal talking about the movies and the business of movies.
    Wasn't an attack at all, sorry if it came over that way. Just a bad hunch, as you proved.

  14. #14154
    I do find it amusing that this thread is graced with an active and current expert in the business side of cinema and she still gets disagreement about her knowledge in her field of expertise from armchair hobgoblins

    Not meaning you, @Hansworst. Your query seemed more tongue-in-cheek.

  15. #14155
    I'm surprised that much stock is put into rotten tomatoes scores.

  16. #14156
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    I'm surprised that much stock is put into rotten tomatoes scores.
    Is it a surprise that aggregators get a lot of attention? Metacritic scores can literally affect video game developer salaries, and whether or not a sequel gets made.

  17. #14157
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Movie was ok. Finally pushing the main story forward. The world was gorgeous, the creatures imaginative. Although the movie was darn dark in my cinema.

    Kinda surprised this Kang got iced, was expecting him to be the main main villain, with his iconic gear. Should know better, after seeing "Kang Dynasty" subtitle. MODOK was hilariously grotesque, but his 180 after a 20 sec pep talk was just dumb. No idea what Bill Murray was doing there, his character brought NOTHING to the story during it's literal 5 sec of screen time. Was nice to see Loki in the after credits, bringing series and movies together more.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-02-18 at 09:27 PM.
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  18. #14158
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    I'm surprised that much stock is put into rotten tomatoes scores.
    Personally I put more stock in the audience scores. If a movie has good reviews but low audience score I'm gonna get suspicious.

  19. #14159
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by everydaygamer View Post
    Personally I put more stock in the audience scores. If a movie has good reviews but low audience score I'm gonna get suspicious.
    You really can't put any faith in audience scores whatsoever; brigading is a constant factor in audience scores, as these aggregators have often directly admitted. Critics are, at least, vetted by RT before including them in their metrics.


  20. #14160
    B cinema score for Antman. The lowest since Eternals.

    This is ain't looking good.

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