Revert the RIO score system change

[craigw]

If anything you should lose score when you deplete a key so your mythic+ score is actually a reflection of your skill at completing keys, and instead have a sort of mmr system that shows what key level you can consistently complete.

Mythic plus score has been a poison to this game in the sense people always want to do keys higher than what they've ever done, no matter if that's starting to tip above their skill level, it made pugging a lot worse, and that rio change was in the right direction at least because pretty much anyone who can time a 20 can time a 22-23 with 10-15 minutes above the timer, it shouldn't get you more score.

this^^^^^ untimed keys and keys you bail on should lower your score. maintaining the same rating for failure should never happen in any game.

[brynhildrprot]

I am just baffled by the change with the m+ score where above 20 you basically get nothing if you deplete the key. As a 3.2k+ rio player it is incredibly frustrating to have to firstly get a decent run going on and secondly it is incredibly tilting to having the key deplete by 1-2 seconds for instance and getting absolutely nothing for it.

Few days ago we did a 25 nok, depleted it by legit 0.1 seconds and no score was received whatsoever. I mean who even asked for this change? Everyone is on board with getting better through runs and every mistake is a lesson of shorts. Timing the key sure has to be worth it but that's why depleted keys gave fewer points in the first place. There is a difference in gaining something over a well-played key with minor mistakes and just literally wasting 1 hour of your life for nothing.

Whoever thought / implemented the idea clearly has no clue of how pitch perfect runs 25 and above need to be in order to be timed.

Revert the change that no-one asked for in the first place, there are other ways of balancing the game or easy keys for instance. The whole idea was generated by people spamming SBG and COS for instance and inflating their RIO so don't take the easy route and actually go ahead and equalize the difficulty of the dungeons. You enforced a huge change without any regard of player effort and time investment.

3.2 rio played here.

The change is fantastic and prevents people from getting title by just depleting keys they couldnt realistically time.

Stop complaining

[Gaidax]

Oh damn son, guess you can't two chest easy 22/23 and then get a free score inting in 25 cancer dung for 2 hours. Wonder why they changed it, kappa.

[brynhildrprot]

Oh damn son, guess you can't two chest easy 22/23 and then get a free score inting in 25 cancer dung for 2 hours. Wonder why they changed it, kappa.

I depleted AV+25 3 times this week,first by 12 minute because we wiped on the last boss 3 times.

Then I depleted it by 20 seconds and last attempt by 7 seconds,and I am COMPLETELY fine with not getting score from it.

I know I am capable of doing it,I know what we did wrong to deplete it so as soon as I get the key again its timed.

[Azharok]

3.2 rio played here.

The change is fantastic and prevents people from getting title by just depleting keys they couldnt realistically time.

Stop complaining

I didn't see that angle. That's fair then.

[brynhildrprot]

I didn't see that angle. That's fair then.

Yes depleted keys below 20 give score so ppl can get ksm. Above that its a mechanism to Prevent ppl cheesing depleted keys for score

I mean I think a depleted 25 should NEVER give more score than a +24 timed, maybe it could be equal to a barely timed +23, but I think the current system is fine as it only impacts title pushers and the goal of the system is to TIME keys.

I also think its great that you get score from depleted keys below 20s as it gives icentives to finiah low keys and get score when you need it to upgrade gear

- - - Updated - - -

There is no RIO score change. Blizzard changed dungeon score.

It is a bad change. Previously failing, say, a 25 by up to 40% of the timer awarded approximately the same score as a barely timed 24, which made sense. People who could generally get within 40% of a 25 could usually time a 24.

An appropriate change would have been shortening the 40% window to 30%, or making the score for a missed 25 equal to a 23.



Why then did Blizzard do the nuclear option here?

Because they massively fucked up dungeon balance this season. The fact of the matter is that a 25 SBG is probably equivalent to a 20 AV, for example. So if you time a 25 SBG and get a 26 AV key, you have absolutely no hope of timing it. Players then either ditched their keystone (drop and reroll) or just ran other people's keys.

All in all this really solved very few problems (eliminated a few people from the top 0.1% title who had slightly failed most of their best keys) and caused many more issues ("dead key" is now worse than ever above a 20). In theory it means the people doing 25 SBGs have a reason to go join people doing a 21 AV to boost them a bit, but they can just run 21 AV with their group, so that won't really happen.

UNTRUE.

On tyrannical maybe,on fortified you are completely wrong.

Depleting 26 fortified key by 20% overtime is easier than 25, you just skip some of the dangerous pulls play less risky, and you will have an easier time finishing a +26AV with 6 minutes overtime than +25 timed.

However on tyrannical thats not quite the case, but still quite degenerate.

I can assure you depleting a key with a lot of overtime on +26 is easier than barely timing a +25 (with a few exceptions where you have big break point bosses that have one shot mechanics on +26 but dont on +25, think tempest on +26 vs +25, maybe 2nd boss in CoS).

I am at 3250 RIO with 6/8 keys done on 25 so I think I have some authority on the subject on +25/+26 difficulty. I am NOT a world class player,but am around top 200 and top 50 tank.

You are wrong.

The score system is a great change for anyone doing high keys.


Edit: I think people with low rio think depleting higher keys is harder because they just pull pack by pack and take zero risks and dangerous pulls to save time, something you need to do to time high enough keys.

So yea if you do Temple +21 and go pack by pack and deplete it by 5 seconds that will be harder than timing it by 5 seconds on +20, but realistically the pulls you need to do to time +25 TJS get infinitely harder with the scaling on +26, but if you have 6 extra minutes you just Split the two most dangerous pulls and you'll get more score (again this applies more to forti since you'll get walled on tyran on the last boss), so what I am saying is less true on tyrannical, but for forti 100%.

For reference tho before the change a timed +25 would give substantially less score than a depleted 26 with 19.9% overtime

[Tojara]

Oh damn son, guess you can't two chest easy 22/23 and then get a free score inting in 25 cancer dung for 2 hours. Wonder why they changed it, kappa.

I'm pretty sure you can't get score even under the old system if you went over 40% over. So for instance if you had a 30 minute timer and went to the 42 minute mark, you wouldn't get score regardless. Under the new system they just make it so if you don't time keys at 21 or higher, you get zero points.

Regardless the point remains. Under the old system I knew plenty of people who would buy higher keys from big key pushers or look for people who stumbled into easier keys in S3 and S4 of SLands. More prevalent amongst those chasing the top 0.5 or top 1% title (forget what % it is). Anyways they would get an easy key +2 it and then do the next key under the assumption they would fail the timer.

Now I don't really a stake in this, nor do I care about pushing much beyond 20. Right now I can time 20s, some 21s (not just SMBG/CoS) and would 100% be able to do CoS/SMBG on 22/23, but I don't really chase score. I don't get excited for easy key weeks where I spam keys trying to upgrade my score, I just do 4-8 keys (sometimes more, depending on what friends need) and whatever keys those happen to be is what we end up doing. Their stance on it seems sound to me. Aside from a fringe title (which they should probably just make another threshold than a gladiator type low %, like 3k or something), there's nothing to gain beyond 20s at the moment. If you can't time keys then you don't deserve the score from them.

People are also being a bit disingenuous as well as to how old keys under the old system worked too. If you want score now you plan around an example 30 minute timer. Time it you get points, don't time it, zilch. The old system at least how I viewed it in discords I was part of, people planned the key around a 42 minute timer instead. Which changes the entire landscape of that key by a landslide. You no longer have to merge dangerous pulls together to make up time, nor do you have to pull trash with bosses. With that much extra time it's more about playing the key extremely safe. Pull trash you normally wouldn't because some packs are more dangerous on that key level, or just simply sit there and wait for CDs to come back up because you can afford to do so on some bosses when you have an extra 40% of time to wait around.

As somebody who doesn't care about the title, I would just guess it doesn't effect the people who deserve that title in the slightest. The only people it really effects is the fringe people outside of that threshold who care about the title, grind keys like crazy but realistically aren't good enough to get it without just hardcore grinding dungeons until you luck into a massive amount of untimed keys lol.

There's a weird gap between those pushing the maximum reward keys and the people pushing some of the highest keys. You need to put in a lot of work to consistently push high keys which is cool, but it's not for a lot of players. Then there's the group that want to push for the title and are willing to put in the grind aspect without the 'understanding' aspect of actually timing high keys consistently. These are the people in my eyes that are being punished, and it's really not that many people.

[brynhildrprot]

I'm pretty sure you can't get score even under the old system if you went over 40% over. So for instance if you had a 30 minute timer and went to the 42 minute mark, you wouldn't get score regardless. Under the new system they just make it so if you don't time keys at 21 or higher, you get zero points.

Regardless the point remains. Under the old system I knew plenty of people who would buy higher keys from big key pushers or look for people who stumbled into easier keys in S3 and S4 of SLands. More prevalent amongst those chasing the top 0.5 or top 1% title (forget what % it is). Anyways they would get an easy key +2 it and then do the next key under the assumption they would fail the timer.

Now I don't really a stake in this, nor do I care about pushing much beyond 20. Right now I can time 20s, some 21s (not just SMBG/CoS) and would 100% be able to do CoS/SMBG on 22/23, but I don't really chase score. I don't get excited for easy key weeks where I spam keys trying to upgrade my score, I just do 4-8 keys (sometimes more, depending on what friends need) and whatever keys those happen to be is what we end up doing. Their stance on it seems sound to me. Aside from a fringe title (which they should probably just make another threshold than a gladiator type low %, like 3k or something), there's nothing to gain beyond 20s at the moment. If you can't time keys then you don't deserve the score from them.

People are also being a bit disingenuous as well as to how old keys under the old system worked too. If you want score now you plan around an example 30 minute timer. Time it you get points, don't time it, zilch. The old system at least how I viewed it in discords I was part of, people planned the key around a 42 minute timer instead. Which changes the entire landscape of that key by a landslide. You no longer have to merge dangerous pulls together to make up time, nor do you have to pull trash with bosses. With that much extra time it's more about playing the key extremely safe. Pull trash you normally wouldn't because some packs are more dangerous on that key level, or just simply sit there and wait for CDs to come back up because you can afford to do so on some bosses when you have an extra 40% of time to wait around.

As somebody who doesn't care about the title, I would just guess it doesn't effect the people who deserve that title in the slightest. The only people it really effects is the fringe people outside of that threshold who care about the title, grind keys like crazy but realistically aren't good enough to get it without just hardcore grinding dungeons until you luck into a massive amount of untimed keys lol.

There's a weird gap between those pushing the maximum reward keys and the people pushing some of the highest keys. You need to put in a lot of work to consistently push high keys which is cool, but it's not for a lot of players. Then there's the group that want to push for the title and are willing to put in the grind aspect without the 'understanding' aspect of actually timing high keys consistently. These are the people in my eyes that are being punished, and it's really not that many people.

I am 150 pts ahead of the title rn, so I am giga safe this season, but yea it would pomote degenerate gameplay for the people on the verge of getting it, it would also be weird on the leaderboards to have the top push grps with more depleted keys on top.

I just dont wanna deal with this type of degeneracy tho, I know my class is in a good spot this season (prot paladin), but when it's in the position of Guardian Druid this season, and I am sweating bullets trying to get the seasonal title as a badly tunned tank, I just don't want to deal with this sort of deplete metagame.

I know if the class I play is reasonably well tunned I dont struggle on title, so deplete scores wouldn't affect me too much aince I'd be in the 0.05% or higher instead of 0.1%, but assuming bad tunning, it is such a good change for the people on the verge of getting title.

[Artemol]

There are positives and negatives with the change.

Having timed every key +24, some 25 and some 26 i guess i'm entitled to give my opinion.

Positives: People are not able to cheese high scores by spamming sbg/cos rerolls to get +2s skipping an entire difficulty.

Say a player naturally does +24s and 25s and is able to time them, yet with the same group they are not able to time a +26 key.

Now, the group continuesly rerolls their keys into 25 sbgs and +2s them into 27s, they won't be able to get score from these keys.

Negatives: If a key looks to be slightly depleted, keyword being "looks" the majority of the time, the group will disband leading the keyholder to have the same key on a lower difficulty - now if this is one of the harder dungeons this'll push the player into an "evil loop" - if the key is hard for players naturally queuing for 27s it'll deplete into a 26, which again those needing it on 27 wont queue for - endless loop of depleting untill the key is easy enough for the majority of players to complete (who are searching for keys at that level).


TLR people will leave when they THINK, they wont be able to benefit from the key.
Now i've had runs before where it definitly looked like the key would deplete, but adjusting for that and pulls etc it turned out the key was just barely timeable.


The fix for this would be to have keys above +20 to give the same score as a key 2 levels below the current level.

+27 depleted by up to 20% would give the same score as a +25 key, from 20-35% to give the same score as a +24. anything higher than that, not yielding any score.


As the original DF system was, a depleted +27 would give MORE score than a +26 timed, which was stupid and dumb.

Implementing a -2 keylvl reward would be a major help for people pugging higher level keys, as there would still be incentive to finish a key that's slightly depleted.

Anyone doing 25-27s do not need gear, unless a change was made that any gear rewards from +25s and higher would yield the same ilvl rewards as the vault does.
Anyone doing 25-27s do not need Primal Chaos.
Anyone doing 25-27s do not need anything besides the score from the keys.