How did the Essence of Aszune end up in Dalaran Hold?

[Le Conceptuel]

In game: Goblin engineers teaching plus thirty years.

I believe it was actually three. There were also no Goblins present with Garrosh—he went to Draenor alone, only bringing schemata. There were no Goblin engineers until he presumably extracted them during the invasion.

The orcs on alternate draenor were FAR more advanced then the orcs on our draenor.
THe original orcs had no tech
but when garrosh went almost 40 years back in time to the alternate draenor he brought blackfuses tech blueprints with him, giving the orcs tech 40 years from the future, OF GOBLINS. Imagine if we went back to the 80's and taught them how to use current day tech.

Firstly, there's no strict evidence that the Orcs on Draenor were in any way more technologically-advanced prior to Garrosh's arrival. Secondly, the technological gap was certainly far more severe than the 80s-2020s. Although the same amount of time had passed, the actual gap in terms of realistic technological development would've been well one or two millennia (depending on exactly how advanced the Blackrock are, which is a little ambiguous—they definitely weren't near as advanced as they became afterwards). All this means is that the Iron Horde's engineers were able to learn how to read schemata, then go all the way from the basic metalworking the Blackrock already used to basic chemistry and eventually early industrial engineering. In establishing a rail line and outfitting their armies, then reorganizing their armies afterwards, they also would've had to invent the concept of early industrial logistics and military organization.

All of these things – the rapid development of advanced engineering, everything implicitly necessary in industrializing any society (i.e. a division of labor, which seems to exist in the Blackrock), the rapid acceleration of the trial-and-error learning needed to develop effective supply lines and military organization – suggest a great deal of intelligence—the fact that the technology was introduced from a foreign source was a non-issue. If I were to travel back in time and give a randomly-selected person from the early Iron Age the schemata for how to build a train and hoped they would pick it up from there, it would be remarkably impressive if their society was able to start establishing railways after three years of study.

Part of the reason for the confusion is that the Orcs are a very primitive race under normal circumstances, but that's precisely their situation—they aren't innately stupid, they're simply primitive. It's easy to forget precisely how long it took for modern society to develop—IIRC, the Orcs were above-ground for roughly eight hundred years. This makes what they'd already done by that point pretty impressive in itself, as a race that early in its development should naturally be expected to be primitive. Even then, technological development occurs through certain critical junctures and the very slow process by which that technology travels, so progress afterwards would naturally be slow.

[Feanoro]

All this means is that the Iron Horde's engineers were able to learn how to read schemata, then go all the way from the basic metalworking the Blackrock already used to basic chemistry and eventually early industrial engineering. In establishing a rail line and outfitting their armies, then reorganizing their armies afterwards, they also would've had to invent the concept of early industrial logistics and military organization.

WoD demonstrated more than any essay here ever could that Blizzard doesn't have the first atom of a clue how ANYTHING works. Stone Age to Industrial Age in a few years is ludicrous, and anyone defending it has clearly never gotten their hands dirty.

Even if we somehow ignore that absurdity, it would imply the AU orcs are geniuses beyond geniuses. They sure as hell wouldn't be waving axes and wasting time on conquest, let alone the unsustainable model of plundering.

It also introduces a paradox, namely for WoD to work, the orcs are both geniuses and idiots. If they were capable of Stone to Industrial Ages in a few years based on schematics (which despite what you might have seen in Roadrunner cartoons are very difficult for untrained readers), then they should have developed a great deal of the foundation skills necessary for that. The fact that they did not directly counters the idea of genius. WoD was piss poor writing even by NuBlizz's standards and didn't put even an iota of thought into the setting.

- - - Updated - - -

Last I checked, wasn't the Iron Horde completely wrecked and destroyed without any notable victory besides Nethergarde (which was an isolated keep caught off-guard)?

Maybe they shouldn't have trusted goblin engineers after all.

Yep, it was astonishing how quickly WoD knee-capped its marketed threat.

[Aucald]

Objectively proven wrong by the Lost Vikings Eastern Egg who is featured as a dungeon boss, and the Pandaren easter egg who is featured as an entire expansion.

Generally non-canonical. Easter eggs can become canon, sure; but the general rule of thumb is that they're non-canon until proven otherwise (e.g. there are no Zerg on Azeroth). Nothing about the Heart of Aszune was really an easter egg, it was a plot coupon in WC3 later re-visited in a previous expansion of WoW.

[FelPlague]

I believe it was actually three. There were also no Goblins present with Garrosh—he went to Draenor alone, only bringing schemata. There were no Goblin engineers until he presumably extracted them during the invasion.



Firstly, there's no strict evidence that the Orcs on Draenor were in any way more technologically-advanced prior to Garrosh's arrival. Secondly, the technological gap was certainly far more severe than the 80s-2020s. Although the same amount of time had passed, the actual gap in terms of realistic technological development would've been well one or two millennia (depending on exactly how advanced the Blackrock are, which is a little ambiguous—they definitely weren't near as advanced as they became afterwards). All this means is that the Iron Horde's engineers were able to learn how to read schemata, then go all the way from the basic metalworking the Blackrock already used to basic chemistry and eventually early industrial engineering. In establishing a rail line and outfitting their armies, then reorganizing their armies afterwards, they also would've had to invent the concept of early industrial logistics and military organization.

All of these things – the rapid development of advanced engineering, everything implicitly necessary in industrializing any society (i.e. a division of labor, which seems to exist in the Blackrock), the rapid acceleration of the trial-and-error learning needed to develop effective supply lines and military organization – suggest a great deal of intelligence—the fact that the technology was introduced from a foreign source was a non-issue. If I were to travel back in time and give a randomly-selected person from the early Iron Age the schemata for how to build a train and hoped they would pick it up from there, it would be remarkably impressive if their society was able to start establishing railways after three years of study.

Part of the reason for the confusion is that the Orcs are a very primitive race under normal circumstances, but that's precisely their situation—they aren't innately stupid, they're simply primitive. It's easy to forget precisely how long it took for modern society to develop—IIRC, the Orcs were above-ground for roughly eight hundred years. This makes what they'd already done by that point pretty impressive in itself, as a race that early in its development should naturally be expected to be primitive. Even then, technological development occurs through certain critical junctures and the very slow process by which that technology travels, so progress afterwards would naturally be slow.

It was not 3 years... Speaking going back 3 years wouldn't even bring him to Draenor, 3 years prior to mop was Wotlk, so he woulda still ended up in Outland. It literally is on the cinematic dude... And no he didn't bring goblins but he brought the technogy and the blueprints to do so. And teaching the BlackRock he was able to rocket their technology into the future, especially with draenors extremely powerful elementals being used to power the machines.
Also where the hell did you see them using basic chemistry? What? You think they actually made normal trains? Bro they ran the trains on living fire elementals. When your machines can run on sentient power sources your tech can go so much easier.

Imagine if you just stuck a arcane elemental in a glass pane, boom cellphone. No need for obscene amounts of technology.

- - - Updated - - -

WoD demonstrated more than any essay here ever could that Blizzard doesn't have the first atom of a clue how ANYTHING works. Stone Age to Industrial Age in a few years is ludicrous, and anyone defending it has clearly never gotten their hands dirty.

Even if we somehow ignore that absurdity, it would imply the AU orcs are geniuses beyond geniuses. They sure as hell wouldn't be waving axes and wasting time on conquest, let alone the unsustainable model of plundering.

It also introduces a paradox, namely for WoD to work, the orcs are both geniuses and idiots. If they were capable of Stone to Industrial Ages in a few years based on schematics (which despite what you might have seen in Roadrunner cartoons are very difficult for untrained readers), then they should have developed a great deal of the foundation skills necessary for that. The fact that they did not directly counters the idea of genius. WoD was piss poor writing even by NuBlizz's standards and didn't put even an iota of thought into the setting.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, it was astonishing how quickly WoD knee-capped its marketed threat.

Someone forgets they didn't need to be Insanely smart. Because they didn't need real technology. If they got a fire elemental, shoved it into a giant metal ball, suddenly they have a self building mechanical explosive battering ram, no obscene levels of technology needed.
Welcome to the iron horde, their cannons, self guiding artillery, and their trains were not some insane technological feat, they were elementals merged with metal, expanded over nearly 40 years.

[Le Conceptuel]

It was not 3 years... Speaking going back 3 years wouldn't even bring him to Draenor, 3 years prior to mop was Wotlk, so he woulda still ended up in Outland. It literally is on the cinematic dude...

That's thirty years back from the then-present. We still went back in time. The Iron Horde had three years to actually produce their technology, train their engineers, and implement the changes necessary to integrate the technology. Or, well, they would have had three years if I weren't actually wrong—they did it in two. They were doing this between years -4 and -2.

And no he didn't bring goblins but he brought the technogy and the blueprints to do so. And teaching the BlackRock he was able to rocket their technology into the future, especially with draenors extremely powerful elementals being used to power the machines.

Yes, because it's clearly not indicative of intelligence to learn engineering from someone else, like every engineer in history did. Learning engineering from schemata alone is an impressive intellectual feat, especially since there was only one person who knew how to actually read blueprints.

Also where the hell did you see them using basic chemistry? What? You think they actually made normal trains? Bro they ran the trains on living fire elementals. When your machines can run on sentient power sources your tech can go so much easier.

So? They still had to develop a sufficient understanding of physics to understand the likes of steam-powered mechanical work, which is what the Fire Elementals were presumably being used for. Also, just because elementals were being used doesn't mean they didn't still have to learn how to effectively engineer a locomotive with all the necessary elements involved to make such a thing function.

None of what you said remotely counters the fact that a large chunk of the Orcish race were able to develop a near-modern understanding of physics and engineering, as well as modern logistics, in the span of two years with no direct help other than one non-engineer with a set of schemata (which they also would need to learn to read, as reading blueprints is a skill in itself).

[Feanoro]

Someone forgets they didn't need to be Insanely smart. Because they didn't need real technology. If they got a fire elemental, shoved it into a giant metal ball, suddenly they have a self building mechanical explosive battering ram, no obscene levels of technology needed.
Welcome to the iron horde, their cannons, self guiding artillery, and their trains were not some insane technological feat, they were elementals merged with metal, expanded over nearly 40 years.

You do understand I'm saying the claim "Hyper intelligent orcs went from Stone Age to Industrial Age in three years" is absurd?

[FelPlague]

You do understand I'm saying the claim "Hyper intelligent orcs went from Stone Age to Industrial Age in three years" is absurd?

Not 3 years, and not absurb when you consider the fact this is a fucking fantasy world.
Yeah if humans skipped from stone age to industrial age in 3 years that is absurd
but give humans FAR MORE then 3 years, and give humans magical sentient elementals, and suddenly you can go from stone age to the future in a moment.

I mean us as humans have not invented teleportation yet, and we are hundreds to thousands of years from learning how to preform teleportation if it is even possible
meanwhile these stone age orcs were able to teleport no problem it was just a thing that could be done.

that is why going "wow they got so advanced so quickly its bullshit" is the stupidist thing ever, when you consider these stone age orcs can make a futuristic cellphone by grabbing a plane of glass and shoving an elemental in it, and suddenly they have cell phones FAR more advanced then the cellphones we have in real life, including an infinite power source.

Technology does not progress in fantasy like it did in real life because of magic, things that seem impossible or are actually impossible, just become normal.

yeah making a train in real life was SUPER hard and took a lot of technology to do.

meanwhile in fantasy you just get a fire elemental, shove it into a bunch of metal, and feed it coal, and it will turn your wheels for you and rush down the tracks, cause it is getting yummy yummy coal, nor can it escape anyways if it wanted.

- - - Updated - - -

So? They still had to develop a sufficient understanding of physics to understand the likes of steam-powered mechanical work, which is what the Fire Elementals were presumably being used for.

No... they didnt need to use steam power mechnaisims... it is literally just a fire elemental controlling the machine.
Again this is fantasy, the fire elementals are literally just inhabiting the material itself, and MOVING the machines.

Same way these guys move, there is no steam power, they are literally just inhabiting the material and moving it.
They don't use steam, they literally just use the fire elemental, to move the machine, or fill it with just obscene latent fire energy, causing the engines to go. They use elemental cores that literally respond to you. They don't need some advanced technology.
They just need to know "hey make this shape, and put an elemental core in it, and it will work." because the cores literally make up the elemental and it binds to the objects around it.

Think of it like you are literally making an earth elemental but instead of rock you use metal, and use whatever shape you want it to work. The fire elemental will move the wheels and the belts and fire the cannons for you.

Like why do you think they had fully sentient vehicles?

[Le Conceptuel]

WoD demonstrated more than any essay here ever could that Blizzard doesn't have the first atom of a clue how ANYTHING works. Stone Age to Industrial Age in a few years is ludicrous, and anyone defending it has clearly never gotten their hands dirty.

Even if we somehow ignore that absurdity, it would imply the AU orcs are geniuses beyond geniuses. They sure as hell wouldn't be waving axes and wasting time on conquest, let alone the unsustainable model of plundering.

It also introduces a paradox, namely for WoD to work, the orcs are both geniuses and idiots. If they were capable of Stone to Industrial Ages in a few years based on schematics

Correct. WoD was terribly-written and the premise is downright ludicrous. The assertion that it is possible for any race to rapidly ascend from a relatively primitive tribal society to an industrial society with a division of labor and advanced technology is ludicrous. That does not change that it is canon. It's also nonsensical for anything that happened in Shadowlands to happen, yet it is canon nonetheless. Similarly, the plot of WoD is predicated on nonsense, yet the implications (namely re: Orcish intelligence) must be accepted on their face because it happened.

(which despite what you might have seen in Roadrunner cartoons are very difficult for untrained readers)

This is precisely my point, thank you.

then they should have developed a great deal of the foundation skills necessary for that. The fact that they did not directly counters the idea of genius. WoD was piss poor writing even by NuBlizz's standards and didn't put even an iota of thought into the setting.

What specific foundational skills? Are you suggesting a model of perpetual conquest doesn't support technological development? It's certainly terrible for your economy, living standards, and the sustainability of your society, but it certainly doesn't preclude technological development—if anything, it necessitates it. If you mean that they ought to have developed a bit more than they were in general due to their intelligence, I would counter that by saying their entire civilization is only around eight hundred years old according to the timeline. Humans weren't exactly building wonders eight hundred years into their tenure as a species.

[FelPlague]

Correct. WoD was terribly-written and the premise is downright ludicrous. The assertion that it is possible for any race to rapidly ascend from a relatively primitive tribal society to an industrial society with a division of labor and advanced technology is ludicrous..

Except it is not, because they didn't get advanced technology, they got fucking magic that worked like technology

did you ever hear the term
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
the whole point is it is that term, but ACTUALLY magic. They do not have advanced technology, they have magic.
Fel reavers are futuristic tech to us as real life humans, these giant sentient mechs that have no problem walking even though they are extremly huge, heavy, and top heavy at that?
That must be extremly complicated and futuristic technology!
no it is magic. Shove fel-ementals into a giant suit of armor with a basic ass "engine" and it works just fine.

[Le Conceptuel]

They don't need some advanced technology.
They just need to know "hey make this shape, and put an elemental core in it, and it will work." because the cores literally make up the elemental and it binds to the objects around it.

Think of it like you are literally making an earth elemental but instead of rock you use metal, and use whatever shape you want it to work. The fire elemental will move the wheels and the belts and fire the cannons for you.

Like why do you think they had fully sentient vehicles?

Even if that is the case and it truly is unnecessary for the Orcs to understand steam power and any chemistry or physics that needs to be understood in connection to it, the Iron Horde would also still have to understand engineering sufficiently to create effective engines of war on a design level—let's take a Tank, for instance. Of course, an Elemental could be what fires the weapon and moves the tank as opposed to any kind of reaction usually employed to produce the desired result—however, the Iron Horde's engineers would still have to create an effective design. The Iron Horde would need to weigh the conflicting need for armor and speed, for instance, or determine the width and length of the cannon and what kind of rounds would be most useful.

It does significantly reduce the requisite intelligence to produce their technology if they're not employing steam power or anything more complex than "tell Elemental to make it move", but it would still require a good deal of intelligence to produce effective designs. It doesn't matter if you can build artillery, for instance, if the round won't reach the right spot because the cannon or ammunition is poorly-designed. Similarly, the actual structure of the machines would not change significantly—the mechanisms used to allow the machine to move would still be required for it to function even if it were active work by a Fire Elemental rather than steam-powered mechanical work that put the machine's mechanisms in motion.

In fact, to go even further than this, we can discard the need for design on top of that. We'll assume that every single machine used by the Iron Horde was specifically designed by the Blackfuse Company, not just the Grimrail and the Iron Star itself. Even then, the engineers themselves would still need the intelligence to produce the machine and build it to specification. The overseers of the Orcish manufacturing lines would also need to be intelligent enough to instruct their workers in how to effectively divide their labor, and they would need to create and maintain efficient production systems. After the machines are created, the Iron Horde's military would need to have competent theorists who can rapidly adapt to the introduction of new technology and integrate them into the Orcish military. They would also need to determine the strategic niche of each new invention and readjust their strategies for conquest accordingly. Then they'd need smart logistical officers who could devise methods of delivery to keep their armies supplied throughout their conquest, and these logistical systems would need to be effective enough to keep up with the rate of the Orcs' conquests. Beyond the strategic and logistical foundations of their technology's application, another level of theory would be needed to employ the new technology effectively on a tactical level. Once the machinery is deployed, it would also need to be manned by competent crews who know how to use their weapons to their fullest potential—at least a cursory knowledge of physics would be needed by the Orcs manning artillery, for instance, and tanks would need crews who understand the capabilities of their vehicles and how best to apply them.

- - - Updated - - -

Except it is not, because they didn't get advanced technology, they got fucking magic that worked like technology

did you ever hear the term
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
the whole point is it is that term, but ACTUALLY magic. They do not have advanced technology, they have magic.

This comment doesn't make sense. The quote has nothing to do with the topic other than covering one potential way in which the relationship between magic and technology could manifest. If anything, what you mean to bring up is the opposite—not technology that appears to be magic, but magic that appears to be technology. As such, I will bring up the quote in question's inverse—any sufficiently-analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology. And, in this particular case, the keyword is "indistinguishable". Insofar as the function of the technology goes, it is still technology by any measure. Once magic has become sufficiently analyzed to deploy it in a fashion wholly indistinguishable from technology, it may as well be technology. There is no confusion as to how it works, and no underlying superstition. The rules of reality are reasserted, and demystified magic becomes only another realm of science.

Sure, the technology originates from a magical source—does it matter? I went over everything else that went into designing and deploying that technology just now, and it is quite the same as any other kind of technology. Magic, in this connection, is just a fuel source. There is nothing else that magic governs—the laws of physics don't otherwise dissipate in connection to the technology in question. The technology still operates the same as it would were it using any other fuel source. And even within the context of magic, they'd have to be analyzing this magic effectively to apply it as they are.

[Feanoro]

@FelPlague Let me try again. I am not the person making the claim "hyper intelligent orcs went from the Stone Age to the Industrial Age in three years". I'm the one pointing out that is an utterly absurd premise. I did not address magic because the claim I'm talking about doesn't involve magic.

In other words, you can stop attacking me for a stance that I don't have or support.

@Le Conceptuel What foundational skills? Let's see, off the top of my head:

1) Literacy
2) Anything higher than arithmetic through the advanced mathematics such schematics would involve
3) Far better smelting and metalworking than simple blacksmithing
3a) to create steel strong enough for train engines, such as the pressurized boiler tanks
3b) to create steel strong enough for train tracks and wheels, very different requirements from 3a
3c) to create artillery capable of withstanding the pressures of their armaments

4) Fine machining, such as being able to produce consistent, standardized screws, nuts, and bolts (Look into the history sometime if you don't realize just how difficult this is)
3a) Therefore all the iterations of improving tools to create tools capable of such work

5) Shipbuilding (at bare minimum, an understanding of buoyancy is needed for the steel ships we saw)

This list is brief to the point of ridiculously incomplete and oversimplified, but an exhaustive list would be a multi page paper.

Your statement of hyper intelligent orcs is NOT canon. It is an inference you made in an attempt to explain the absurdity of the Iron Horde, not that I blame you for such an attempt. If orcs have the intelligence necessary for this scenario, they should have developed foundational skills and Garrosh simply sped up their work. That is not canon though. They canonically were simple hunter gatherers with no evidence of those skills. Back to inferences, they cannot possibly have the intelligence you attempt to assign, or they would have made those developments to improve their quality of life as well as defense against all the threats of Draenor.

Thus, the paradox. If orcs are hyper intelligent enough to make the advances necessary for the Iron Horde, their failure to do any of the groundwork prior to Garrosh makes them idiots as they would have realized the benefits of such. WoD's premise of the Iron Horde only remotely works if you both dismiss it all as magic and, like Blizzard, are completely ignorant of the impossibility of fitting an astronomical amount of learning and work into the stated time period.

[Le Conceptuel]

1) Literacy
2) Anything higher than arithmetic through the advanced mathematics such schematics would involve
3) Far better smelting and metalworking than simple blacksmithing
a) to create steel strong enough for train engines, such as the pressurized boiler tanks
b) to create steel strong enough for train tracks and wheels, very different requirements from 3a
c) to create artillery capable of withstanding the pressures of their armaments
4) Fine machining, such as being able to produce consistent, standardized screws, nuts, and bolts (Look into the history sometime if you don't realize just how difficult this is)
a) Therefore all the iterations of improving tools to create tools capable of such work
5) Shipbuilding (at bare minimum, an understanding of buoyancy is needed for the steel ships we saw)

If orcs are hyper intelligent enough to make the advances necessary for the Iron Horde, their failure to do any of the groundwork prior to Garrosh makes them idiots as they would have realized the benefits of such.

These things and many others I already took into account, and many of them were implicitly contained within certain things I said before, and this was part of what led me to reach the conclusion I did. I will again return to my statement that their race has existed for eight hundred years—Humans emerged ~two million years ago, whereas the first and simplest of the things you listed first appeared in the form of Cuneiform script around the year 3400 BC, well after the initial emergence of Homo Sapiens. The Cairn of Barnenez may have been constructed at any point ranging from a century to a millennium prior to the invention of Cuneiform script. It is perfectly sensible to assume a race as ludicrously primitive as the Orcish race would be technologically-backwards, as Humans were also fairly technologically-backwards in their first eight hundred years of existence.

Your statement of hyper intelligent orcs is NOT canon. It is an inference you made in an attempt to explain the absurdity of the Iron Horde. If orcs have the intelligence necessary for this scenario, they should have developed foundational skills and Garrosh simply sped up their work. That is not canon though. They canonically were simple hunter gatherers with no evidence of those skills. Back to inferences, they cannot possibly have the intelligence you attempt to assign, or they would have made those developments to improve their quality of life as well as defense against all the threats of Draenor.

WoD's premise of the Iron Horde only remotely works if you both dismiss it all as magic and, like Blizzard, are completely ignorant of the impossibility of fitting an astronomical amount of learning and work into the stated time period.

Once again, I am making no effort to deny the absurdity of it. I am merely extrapolating this from the canonical fact that the Orcish race learned engineering equivalent to the real-world early industrial age, and presumably the aforementioned set of foundational skills necessary to create this technology, in the span of two years. It is not so much an effort to explain it as a simple observation of what occurred—it's simple inductive reasoning. Even though it is ludicrous, and was certainly not the intention of the writers, the events from which I drew my conclusion happened. I am drawing my conclusions re: Orcish intelligence from the same line of reasoning that allows us to understand that the Kyrians are all blithering idiots—the writers presumably didn't intend for the entire population of Bastion to be absolute morons, but that was the undeniable conclusion that had to be drawn from the evidence.

[Varodoc]

@FelPlague Let me try again. I am not the person making the claim "hyper intelligent orcs went from the Stone Age to the Industrial Age in three years". I'm the one pointing out that is an utterly absurd premise. I did not address magic because the claim I'm talking about doesn't involve magic.

In other words, you can stop attacking me for a stance that I don't have or support.

@Le Conceptuel What foundational skills? Let's see, off the top of my head:

1) Literacy
2) Anything higher than arithmetic through the advanced mathematics such schematics would involve
3) Far better smelting and metalworking than simple blacksmithing
3a) to create steel strong enough for train engines, such as the pressurized boiler tanks
3b) to create steel strong enough for train tracks and wheels, very different requirements from 3a
3c) to create artillery capable of withstanding the pressures of their armaments

4) Fine machining, such as being able to produce consistent, standardized screws, nuts, and bolts (Look into the history sometime if you don't realize just how difficult this is)
3a) Therefore all the iterations of improving tools to create tools capable of such work

5) Shipbuilding (at bare minimum, an understanding of buoyancy is needed for the steel ships we saw)

This list is brief to the point of ridiculously incomplete and oversimplified, but an exhaustive list would be a multi page paper.

Your statement of hyper intelligent orcs is NOT canon. It is an inference you made in an attempt to explain the absurdity of the Iron Horde, not that I blame you for such an attempt. If orcs have the intelligence necessary for this scenario, they should have developed foundational skills and Garrosh simply sped up their work. That is not canon though. They canonically were simple hunter gatherers with no evidence of those skills. Back to inferences, they cannot possibly have the intelligence you attempt to assign, or they would have made those developments to improve their quality of life as well as defense against all the threats of Draenor.

Thus, the paradox. If orcs are hyper intelligent enough to make the advances necessary for the Iron Horde, their failure to do any of the groundwork prior to Garrosh makes them idiots as they would have realized the benefits of such. WoD's premise of the Iron Horde only remotely works if you both dismiss it all as magic and, like Blizzard, are completely ignorant of the impossibility of fitting an astronomical amount of learning and work into the stated time period.

Why are we even acting like orcs are "hyper intelligent" for using guns and railways when that's basic knowledge in the Warcraft universe?

Humans also use guns and cannons, Daelin Proudmoore is literally depicted with a pistol in official artwork and a Human ship used cannons in the MoP intro cinematic. Beyond that, railways are not impressive in Azeroth because people can literally teleport.

Maybe if the Iron Horde focused on teleportation instead of railways, they would have actually accomplished anything at all on Draenor.

Magic will always be better than technology. The Kaldorei Empire was the greatest and most powerful mortal civilization on Azeroth, and they used 100% magic and 0% technology. Goblin and Gnomes use technology instead of magic and they are meme joke races that everyone laughs at. The Iron Horde also focused on technology and, surprise surprise, they are the most pathetic and forgettable villain in WoW.

[Ardenaso]

For the same reason a zerg ended up in Ashenvale during the Third War.

Ever heard of an "easter egg"?

I don't think that's an easter egg considering it's in the same Warcraft universe and on the same Warcraft 3 plot

[Feanoro]

@Le Conceptuel Then I've misunderstood you as trying to claim hyper intelligent orcs were canon, which they are not as the writers didn't remotely consider it. It's truly funny though: To make those advances, they must be hyper intelligent. Because they failed to do so without outside prompts, they cannot be hyper intelligent.

[The Stormbringer]

@Feanoro Just a note, but the Draenor Orcs before Garrosh showed up weren't Stone Age. They were probably Iron Age, or around there. Yes, they made use of certain stones and bones and things, but because those were supernaturally useful. They had worked with the Blackrock Ore for a long time before Garrosh showed up, just not in giant industrial/elemental furnaces. The Blackrock Clan was well known for being smiths and armorers before then.

[Le Conceptuel]

Then I've misunderstood you as trying to claim hyper intelligent orcs were canon, which they are not as the writers didn't remotely consider it. It's truly funny though: To make those advances, they must be hyper intelligent. Because they failed to do so without outside prompts, they cannot be hyper intelligent.

No, I'm saying it is canonical. It's just not intentional. And as I said, a species that has only existed for eight hundred years probably wouldn't have made any of the foundational advancements you mentioned by such a point—they are evidently capable of extrapolating every necessary skill in the span of two years from the minimal information they were given, because that is precisely what we are shown by the game and supplementary materials. Inductive reasoning proves my claims about Orcish intelligence must be canonical because there is no other viable Watsonian explanation, even though we know that the Doylist explanation is that the writers didn't care.

- - - Updated - - -

@Feanoro Just a note, but the Draenor Orcs before Garrosh showed up weren't Stone Age. They were probably Iron Age, or around there. Yes, they made use of certain stones and bones and things, but because those were supernaturally useful. They had worked with the Blackrock Ore for a long time before Garrosh showed up, just not in giant industrial/elemental furnaces. The Blackrock Clan was well known for being smiths and armorers before then.

I also was about to bring this up—the Orcs, as I think I said earlier at some point or another, were more accurately around the early Iron Age. They were fairly primitive, but they certainly weren't cavemen.

[Feanoro]

@Le Conceptuel If it's not intentional and requires us to extrapolate an explanation, it's speculation not canonical. That's us attempting to fill in a gap, not a definitive statement by Blizzard. Otherwise, I can point out things like Tauren players wiping out Centaurs when Cairne wouldn't face them to claim Tauren are canonically cowards, which isn't the case.

@The Stormbringer The reason I keep saying Stone Age is that they're shown as hunter/gatherers. That is only sustainable with small tribes where everyone is involved in obtaining food. For the necessary technology and support structures for smiths to exist, there have to be farms and larger, more organized villages. This isn't the case for the orcs. Obviously, it once more is ignorant writers, but from a historical perspective, they're telling us people in animal skins are actually attending an eighteenth century grand royal ball.

[Aucald]

No, I'm saying it is canonical. It's just not intentional. And as I said, a species that has only existed for eight hundred years probably wouldn't have made any of the foundational advancements you mentioned by such a point—they are evidently capable of extrapolating every necessary skill in the span of two years from the minimal information they were given, because that is precisely what we are shown by the game and supplementary materials. Inductive reasoning proves my claims about Orcish intelligence must be canonical because there is no other viable Watsonian explanation, even though we know that the Doylist explanation is that the writers didn't care.

I don't think the orcs adapting to and following the instructions for use of the Iron Horde machinery necessarily denotes "hyper-intelligence" in any tangible form. Intelligence, yes, is something the orcs have always possessed to varying degrees, but not really hyper-intelligence. The Iron Horde doesn't really do anything new with the technology provided to them by Garrosh and his Blackfuse cohorts, aside from mounting them on Gronn to use as siege weapons, which isn't really a feat of monumental intellect. Pauli Rocketspark of the Blackfuse goblins was the creator of the Grimrail and its logistics, and presumably he and other Blackfuse Company goblins built up Blackrock Foundry and similar structures in use by the Iron Horde across Draenor.

The Iron Star and its accompanying tech were actually created to be simplistic and easy to understand and adapt, precisely for the point of providing the traditionally low-tech orcs a leg up on the competition, an easy-to-use and highly versatile engine that orcish technicians and engineers could be quickly trained to use and eventually expand upon. In this sense, the True Horde and later the Iron Horde's use of it is understandable and not-at-all surprising or even narratively inconsistent - they implemented it precisely along the reasons it was created. But they don't really go much beyond basic usage, and they're almost always assisted by subject matter experts in the form of the goblins in Garrosh's employ.

If the orcs were hyper-intelligent we would've seen tremendous advances in orcish technology and society to go alongside their essential uplift through the gift of alien tech. They would've taken the base concepts and rolled with them, making the tech their own in short order. The Iron Horde decidedly doesn't do that, and ultimately their over-reliance on said tech without fundamentally understanding it constitutes one of the many reasons for their ultimate defeat.

[Le Conceptuel]

I don't think the orcs adapting to and following the instructions for use of the Iron Horde machinery necessarily denotes "hyper-intelligence" in any tangible form. Intelligence, yes, is something the orcs have always possessed to varying degrees, but not really hyper-intelligence. The Iron Horde doesn't really do anything new with the technology provided to them by Garrosh and his Blackfuse cohorts, aside from mounting them on Gronn to use as siege weapons, which isn't really a feat of monumental intellect. Pauli Rocketspark of the Blackfuse goblins was the creator of the Grimrail and its logistics, and presumably he and other Blackfuse Company goblins built up Blackrock Foundry and similar structures in use by the Iron Horde across Draenor.

The Iron Star and its accompanying tech were actually created to be simplistic and easy to understand and adapt, precisely for the point of providing the traditionally low-tech orcs a leg up on the competition, an easy-to-use and highly versatile engine that orcish technicians and engineers could be quickly trained to use and eventually expand upon. In this sense, the True Horde and later the Iron Horde's use of it is understandable and not-at-all surprising or even narratively inconsistent - they implemented it precisely along the reasons it was created. But they don't really go much beyond basic usage, and they're almost always assisted by subject matter experts in the form of the goblins in Garrosh's employ.

If the orcs were hyper-intelligent we would've seen tremendous advances in orcish technology and society to go alongside their essential uplift through the gift of alien tech. They would've taken the base concepts and rolled with them, making the tech their own in short order. The Iron Horde decidedly doesn't do that, and ultimately their over-reliance on said tech without fundamentally understanding it constitutes one of the many reasons for their ultimate defeat.

This is all perfectly fair—I was speaking mostly facetiously in response to the excessive over-indulgence re: the topic of Orcish intelligence and highlighting my point by extrapolating this somewhat absurd conclusion from in-game evidence. Were I analyzing this more seriously, I'd probably have taken a similar stance to you. The point that Orcs are "hyper-intelligent" was mainly Feanoro's words, which I indirectly endorsed for the purpose of my argument. The actual thing I was trying to underline is that Orcs are hardly the innately-idiotic race Feanoro, Varodoc, et al. were undertaking to portray them as—I find that when you rely excessively on this kind of hearsay and draw beyond the point of reason from your observations, you can come to extreme and possibly nonsensical conclusions, and I was sort of indulging the opposite side of that.

I also definitely think that it still demonstrates that the Orcish race is far from the place of inherent idiocy my interlocutors suggested—of course their adaptation to this technology was highly haphazard, as they are both still highly unfamiliar with it, lack the societal or scientific foundations to fully apply it, and are simply probably less innately intelligent than Goblins. However, the capacity to build the Iron Star and its associated technologies still suggested a degree of intelligence. That they need tutors or help adapting the technology to be anywhere near useful is expected, and the claim that the Orcs really are the race of geniuses as was implied is obviously nonsensical. My underlying meaning, which is that the portrayal of Orcs as by-and-large blithering morons is inaccurate, certainly remains.

No longer speaking so facetiously or disingenuously, the Iron Horde still does suggest that Orcs are of at least Human intelligence because the Orcs demonstrate a marked capacity for rapid adaptation (though it is, as you said, facilitated by the deliberately-simple design and inherent versatility of the Iron Star) to new technology and situations, as well as the general capacity to operate, maintain, and even build this technology. Although the designs were crude and the application was often faulty, this is to be expected of a previously-primitive society adapting to the rapid introduction of new technology.