Is the state of Retribution Paladin really that bad?

[Gloriandus]

"Holystrike" damage is a new thing (afaik); it means both Holy and Physical damage. Holy has traditionally been great since it bypasses armor and is thematically consistent; I'm curious as to how the talents that increase Physical damage only will work in the toolkit.

[Snowfunk]

Crusader Aura might see some use now, and that means a slight increase to Steed's speed. One downside - the Judgement speed buff is on the same node as Healing Hands. That's an annoyance, though with an auto-heal a smaller WoG might be acceptable.

Judgement buff is on the left, that's the BoFreedom speed that shares. But I feel like the buffed auto WoG is too good to pass upon.

"Holystrike" damage is a new thing (afaik); it means both Holy and Physical damage. Holy has traditionally been great since it bypasses armor and is thematically consistent; I'm curious as to how the talents that increase Physical damage only will work in the toolkit.

I was told on the Ret discord, that it will allow abilites to choose the damage type that faces the least resistance.
So I guess, at least in PvE, it just makes most of your abilites deal Holy damage for the most part.

In PvP however, this is could be interesting. There's A LOT of absorbs and defensives that mitigate "magical", which Holy falls victim too, and being able to switch to dealing Physical with many of your abilities could be useful.

Not sure how worth the 20% Increased Phys node will be, maybe it will tip the favor in some cases and be a dps increase, but it will still cost a talent.

[Kalisandra]

"Holystrike" damage is a new thing (afaik); it means both Holy and Physical damage. Holy has traditionally been great since it bypasses armor and is thematically consistent; I'm curious as to how the talents that increase Physical damage only will work in the toolkit.

Historically Holy was great because it bypassed armour (as all non-physical damage does) and there was no resistance to it, back when resistances were a thing.

[Zmagoslav]

RIP Radiant Decree...
that was one additional button i didn't mind clicking.

[kliffharry]

I really liked Radiant Decree as well. Didn't feel like it added any button bloat at all.

We might see our secondary stat priority go to mastery/crit with some of the Holystrike builds available on PTR. I'm kinda over the haste stacking we've done for so long now.

[Thundering]

why has blizzard made this huge change when all they need to do is add deacent mobility to paladins...

[Eon Drache]

why has blizzard made this huge change when all they need to do is add deacent mobility to paladins...

There were a lot of problems with ret.

[tomten]

The issue is, we are even worse than DKs because as has been explained, Divine Steed if notable worse than Death's Advance. If Steed was also off the GCD and gave immunity from movement effects (including forced movement), we'd be in a much better state.

Does DK's also have freedom, bubble and bop?

[Jester Joe]

Does DK's also have freedom, bubble and bop?

This isn't a comparable situation.

Death's Advance does more than Freedom does, there's been so many raid abilities they can ignore with Death's Advance, like Raz's knock back.

Bubble is on a 3.5m CD with talent reduction, and BoP is a talent point that is only situationally taken on a 5m CD. Which uh...neither are used for mobility really.

You do realize Steed is like, the only mobility in game actually ON the GCD still, right?

[tomten]

This isn't a comparable situation.

Death's Advance does more than Freedom does, there's been so many raid abilities they can ignore with Death's Advance, like Raz's knock back.

Bubble is on a 3.5m CD with talent reduction, and BoP is a talent point that is only situationally taken on a 5m CD. Which uh...neither are used for mobility really.

You do realize Steed is like, the only mobility in game actually ON the GCD still, right?

The person I quoted talked about not having immunity from movement impairing effects, which freedom gives? The talent for movement speed on freedom also carried over from sl or no?
That argument goes both ways though? You can also bop/bubble out of tons of mechanics, some of them moving impairing effects?

Shield charge is still on the gcd, you can argue its a damage ability but it's also used for the charge.
I'm sure there are more than that across 40 specs?

[Jester Joe]

The person I quoted talked about not having immunity from movement impairing effects, which freedom gives? The talent for movement speed on freedom also carried over from sl or no?
That argument goes both ways though? You can also bop/bubble out of tons of mechanics, some of them moving impairing effects?

Shield charge is still on the gcd, you can argue its a damage ability but it's also used for the charge.
I'm sure there are more than that across 40 specs?

No, they were talking about how bad mobility is because of Divine steed being our only one to use.

And that making divine steed immune to movement effects would make it nicer. And the movement speed was only for PvP, it's being added in 10.0.7.

[Tangra58]

I like a lot of the changes, my only suggestion is that button bloat should be addressed not just when it comes to our dps rotation, but also our outrageous excess of single-target friendly abilities. Mutiple heals, bop, sac, cleanse, bos, loh... that's a lot macros for a melee, since switching targets is a dps loss.

[Donkeywing]

The person I quoted talked about not having immunity from movement impairing effects, which freedom gives? The talent for movement speed on freedom also carried over from sl or no?
That argument goes both ways though? You can also bop/bubble out of tons of mechanics, some of them moving impairing effects?

No you can't, you actually get gripped by sennarth inside bubble, you know our 5min defensive ''immunity'', you'll fall the fuck down inside divine shield. I sure as fuck did. Meanwhile dks just cheese the main mechanic of the whole fight with death's advance. Raszageth is similar. I like how you say bubble ''out of tons of mechanics'' when in reality bubble is such a long cd you probably only bubble out of 1 mechanic and that one mechanic won't be the main mechanic of the fight.

Also, Freedom isn't nearly as usefull as you think, it's very specific. Death's advance is on another powerlevel entirely. Trying to argue otherwise is foolish, DK mobility is absurdly good compared to ret.

[tomten]

No you can't, you actually get gripped by sennarth inside bubble, you know our 5min defensive ''immunity'', you'll fall the fuck down inside divine shield. I sure as fuck did. Meanwhile dks just cheese the main mechanic of the whole fight with death's advance. Raszageth is similar. I like how you say bubble ''out of tons of mechanics'' when in reality bubble is such a long cd you probably only bubble out of 1 mechanic and that one mechanic won't be the main mechanic of the fight.

Also, Freedom isn't nearly as usefull as you think, it's very specific. Death's advance is on another powerlevel entirely. Trying to argue otherwise is foolish, DK mobility is absurdly good compared to ret.

Are you really trying to say bubble/bop is useless? Dont forget being able to talent into spell ward too.
You have 2 of them and you wont be the target for every mechanic every time. And if you dont use it on the "main mechanic" why are you using it then?
I never said steed was equal to deaths advance? I'm saying you're looking at one ability in your toolkit when you have multiple and when its toolkit vs toolkit instead of ability vs ability, ret is far from dogshit in comparision?
Saying bubble/bop is not on a different powerlevel entirely because it doesn't work for every single mechanic is equally foolish?
Freedom gives the exact component that you're praising deaths advance for? Its just 2 abilities vs 1.

Or are you advocating for every class to be identical? Being able to skip mechanics is huge, specially soak abilities that you can do yourself and remove the damage for entire raid.

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No, they were talking about how bad mobility is because of Divine steed being our only one to use.

And that making divine steed immune to movement effects would make it nicer. And the movement speed was only for PvP, it's being added in 10.0.7.

But why should ret have 2 movement immune abilities? On top of their already huge utility?
That would be bit OP, no?
Having freedom baked into divine steed, while still keeping freedom?

I can agree with removing steed being on the GCD but giving them essentially 2 freedoms, bubble, bop, spell ward etc. Like, cmon? What are you advocating for here, really? Every class can't be the best at everything?

[Eon Drache]

Are you really trying to say bubble/bop is useless? Dont forget being able to talent into spell ward too.
You have 2 of them and you wont be the target for every mechanic every time. And if you dont use it on the "main mechanic" why are you using it then?
I never said steed was equal to deaths advance? I'm saying you're looking at one ability in your toolkit when you have multiple and when its toolkit vs toolkit instead of ability vs ability, ret is far from dogshit in comparision?
Saying bubble/bop is not on a different powerlevel entirely because it doesn't work for every single mechanic is equally foolish?
Freedom gives the exact component that you're praising deaths advance for? Its just 2 abilities vs 1.

Or are you advocating for every class to be identical? Being able to skip mechanics is huge, specially soak abilities that you can do yourself and remove the damage for entire raid.

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But why should ret have 2 movement immune abilities? On top of their already huge utility?
That would be bit OP, no?
Having freedom baked into divine steed, while still keeping freedom?

I can agree with removing steed being on the GCD but giving them essentially 2 freedoms, bubble, bop, spell ward etc. Like, cmon? What are you advocating for here, really? Every class can't be the best at everything?

I Just want to point out that ret actually can't talent into spellwarding and bop is, in fact, useless this tier for anything.

[Just Passing through]

I main and level as a prot paladin, but do random 5 mans as ret (because who needs the aggrevation of tanking with randoms?) and mostly I find that I always have a spell to cast, an ability to use as prot...but as ret this is lacking.

Maybe I am doing it wrong...but prot is fun...retri is meh to me...hell...I would queue as dps and still enter in a prot specc. Doing world quests and my daily business, I even feel I kill more nad faster as prot.

But yeah...possibly I just suck at that specc

[Donkeywing]

Dont forget being able to talent into spell ward too. [...] Freedom gives the exact component that you're praising deaths advance for? Its just 2 abilities vs 1.

Stating such falsehoods disqualifies you in any serious discussion regarding ret. We don't even have spellwarding and you can't equate freedom to parts of death's advance, also acting as if bop is a substitude for bubble is ridiculous. Your lack of knowledge regarding ret is a major problem because this stuff is very technical and doing a toolkit or even ability comparison of powerlevel is complicated and requires at the very least a basic understanding of what the fuck you're talking about.

One other note

Are you really trying to say bubble/bop is useless?

Don't frame that opinion upon me when my post litteraly includes the following;

when in reality bubble is such a long cd you probably only bubble out of 1 mechanic

That is not the definition of 'useless' by any means. It's extremely disrespectfull to insinuate that to be my opinion.

[EverDash]

Honestly, in PvE content like World Quests, Ret takes a ridiculous amount of damage. My Paladin isn't amazing at the moment (about 391), but it's decent. And taking on 2 or 3 enemies can kill me if I don't constantly heal myself over and over.

But flipping over to Prot (with the exact same gear, obviously) I can take on 15-20 enemies in about the same amount of time without even getting close to 75% of my health.

I've never had this issue in any expansion since end of BC. Not sure what it is right now, but we're bizarrely fragile.

[Gloriandus]

My #1 use of BoP is...preventing fall damage on myself

[Verissaugh]

This isn't a comparable situation.

Death's Advance does more than Freedom does, there's been so many raid abilities they can ignore with Death's Advance, like Raz's knock back.

Bubble is on a 3.5m CD with talent reduction, and BoP is a talent point that is only situationally taken on a 5m CD. Which uh...neither are used for mobility really.

You do realize Steed is like, the only mobility in game actually ON the GCD still, right?

"Maneuverability
We aren’t done with maneuverability yet; we have a few ideas we’re currently exploring internally and will have more to share here in the future. Additionally, we’ve removed Divine Steed from the GCD, since Retribution Paladins rely on this as their major movement ability. Retribution Paladins now receive Blessing of Freedom for free as a part of their Specialization and can talent into a new talent “Unbound Freedom” which provides increased movement speed."

So they are removing GCD from Divine Steed. Quite sure I did read that a few days ago, so werent sure why you argued that its still on GCD so had to check it up myself again xd

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Its really hard to argue about paladins movement atm when they are doing quite alot of changes to it that have the potential to even be overpowered. And if they dont change how judgement work (in PvP) with Lawmaker and Judgement of the pure it could even be broken. But ive started to get optimistic about not only ret but also prot for my own feelings, but can really only wait and see how PTR keeps turning out. Atm its buggy as hell with divine toll not working correctly so cant check how different things works with it.

Just be happy they are actually making huge changes for ret that could be rly interesting and fun.