[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Iliena]

Since the underlying paradox (you can only pick 2: leaving the EU, GFA and keeping the UK whole) can't be solved maybe the tactic is to cycle through the plans and agreements regarding NI indefinitely every couple months.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are hoping to spin the NI shitshow out till after the next election and Labour have to try to sort it out.

[Nymrohd]

I wouldn't be surprised if they are hoping to spin the NI shitshow out till after the next election and Labour have to try to sort it out.

They can spin it forever. It has no solution.

[Huehuecoyotl]

They can spin it forever. It has no solution.

It does, but it involves the UK signing up for a Norway style deal that means the border in the Irish Sea is no longer required. Won't happen immediately, but it will eventually and that solves the issue of keeping the wider UK (including NI) "whole".

If they keep kicking the can so that Labour have to pick it up, they could in theory use the NIP issue as an excuse to start the process of moving closer to Europe. Which would also have a beneficial impact on trade and the economy. I don't expect that to happen (or for the EU to respond well to any such attempts this early), but it would be an interesting political move.

Just one more reason why Brexit is dying.

[Nymrohd]

It does, but it involves the UK signing up for a Norway style deal that means the border in the Irish Sea is no longer required. Won't happen immediately, but it will eventually and that solves the issue of keeping the wider UK (including NI) "whole".

If they keep kicking the can so that Labour have to pick it up, they could in theory use the NIP issue as an excuse to start the process of moving closer to Europe. Which would also have a beneficial impact on trade and the economy. I don't expect that to happen (or for the EU to respond well to any such attempts this early), but it would be an interesting political move.

Just one more reason why Brexit is dying.

I remember discussing this forever back before Brexit. You cannot possibly claim to have exited the EU while being a member of the EFTA; that would be Brexit in name only. It's EU membership without the rights. I guess it is exactly the same kind of delusion constructed for countries that knew they had to be in the EU for trade to function locally but were afraid of asking the question politically which is a similar situation to what Labour has to face. Labour has struggled to regain power, they are finally poised to do so and bringing this conversation before the elections could cost them the win; bringing it any time after would likely make them a single term government.

[dribbles]

It is the EU that continue to damage the GFA by not accepting that the GFA is superior to the temporary NI Protocol. It is the NI protocol itself which prevents a solution and further concessions from the EU are required. Although the EU have bent the knee to the UK already, first by refusing a green and red lane proposal for goods entering NI from the UK and then accepting it, and secondly admitting that the NIP they signed is flawed, they need to do more.

The fact the NIP even exists is the fault of UK remainers in collusion with the EU (chief culprits Theresa May and the Benn Act) at the time of Brexit who were doing, and are still doing, all they can to subvert democracy by preventing a hard Brexit. If we had gone the WTO no deal route at the time of Brexit as all sensible people like me were demanding there would have been no need for the NIP. Another example of more Brexit = a better Brexit = more benefits.

However the solution will easily be found, the consent mechanism of the NI protocol kicks in next year and it is not renewed, or secondly UK legislation currently stalled is progressed so the UK unilaterally changes the protocol and can disapply or override it thereby protecting the GFA.

The NI protocol is ended or modified one way or another and the EU then face a choice as they always did of a hard border, should they choose to impose it the UK will not, between North and Southern Ireland breaking the GFA, or a border between Ireland and France.

[postman1782]

It is the EU that continue to damage the GFA by not accepting that the GFA is superior to the temporary NI Protocol. It is the NI protocol itself which prevents a solution and further concessions from the EU are required. Although the EU have bent the knee to the UK already, first by refusing a green and red lane proposal for goods entering NI from the UK and then accepting it, and secondly admitting that the NIP they signed is flawed, they need to do more.

The fact the NIP even exists is the fault of UK remainers in collusion with the EU (chief culprits Theresa May and the Benn Act) at the time of Brexit who were doing, and are still doing, all they can to subvert democracy by preventing a hard Brexit. If we had gone the WTO no deal route at the time of Brexit as all sensible people like me were demanding there would have been no need for the NIP. Another example of more Brexit = a better Brexit = more benefits.

However the solution will easily be found, the consent mechanism of the NI protocol kicks in next year and it is not renewed, or secondly UK legislation currently stalled is progressed so the UK unilaterally changes the protocol and can disapply or override it thereby protecting the GFA.

The NI protocol is ended or modified one way or another and the EU then face a choice as they always did of a hard border, should they choose to impose it the UK will not, between North and Southern Ireland breaking the GFA, or a border between Ireland and France.

The EU is thriving, the UK is failing.

[Muzjhath]

It is the EU that continue to damage the GFA by not accepting that the GFA is superior to the temporary NI Protocol. It is the NI protocol itself which prevents a solution and further concessions from the EU are required. Although the EU have bent the knee to the UK already, first by refusing a green and red lane proposal for goods entering NI from the UK and then accepting it, and secondly admitting that the NIP they signed is flawed, they need to do more.

The fact the NIP even exists is the fault of UK remainers in collusion with the EU (chief culprits Theresa May and the Benn Act) at the time of Brexit who were doing, and are still doing, all they can to subvert democracy by preventing a hard Brexit. If we had gone the WTO no deal route at the time of Brexit as all sensible people like me were demanding there would have been no need for the NIP. Another example of more Brexit = a better Brexit = more benefits.

However the solution will easily be found, the consent mechanism of the NI protocol kicks in next year and it is not renewed, or secondly UK legislation currently stalled is progressed so the UK unilaterally changes the protocol and can disapply or override it thereby protecting the GFA.

The NI protocol is ended or modified one way or another and the EU then face a choice as they always did of a hard border, should they choose to impose it the UK will not, between North and Southern Ireland breaking the GFA, or a border between Ireland and France.

You ro know that the GFE and a hard UK border cannot exist right?

And because if that the UK trading on WTO rules will be that everything through every port is as if it enters through an open place.

But, if you want the Troubles 2.0.
I'm sure English people in the sunny* uplands are fine with that.

*let's face it. They are rainy uplands

[Twdft]

@dribbles: which of these do you pick

- leaving the EU
- GFA
- UK = England+Wales+Scotland+Northern Ireland

If you pick all 3 please explain to the class how it can be achieved simultanously.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It is the EU that continue to damage the GFA by not accepting that the GFA is superior to the temporary NI Protocol. It is the NI protocol itself which prevents a solution and further concessions from the EU are required. Although the EU have bent the knee to the UK already, first by refusing a green and red lane proposal for goods entering NI from the UK and then accepting it, and secondly admitting that the NIP they signed is flawed, they need to do more.

The fact the NIP even exists is the fault of UK remainers in collusion with the EU (chief culprits Theresa May and the Benn Act) at the time of Brexit who were doing, and are still doing, all they can to subvert democracy by preventing a hard Brexit. If we had gone the WTO no deal route at the time of Brexit as all sensible people like me were demanding there would have been no need for the NIP. Another example of more Brexit = a better Brexit = more benefits.

However the solution will easily be found, the consent mechanism of the NI protocol kicks in next year and it is not renewed, or secondly UK legislation currently stalled is progressed so the UK unilaterally changes the protocol and can disapply or override it thereby protecting the GFA.

The NI protocol is ended or modified one way or another and the EU then face a choice as they always did of a hard border, should they choose to impose it the UK will not, between North and Southern Ireland breaking the GFA, or a border between Ireland and France.

Sigh. We've explained this to you before dribbles. You believing that your obdurate ways make you immune to reality doesn't make it so.

If the UK break the NIP, then it creates a hard border in Ireland. So....to keep this nice and simple for you; the UK breaks the NIP. Ergo the creation of the hard border in Ireland, which occurs because the NIP is broken, is because of the actions of the UK.

So it isn't a "choice of the EU". That's utter nonsense that nobody with functioning braincells would believe.

If it were as easy as you think, the ERG would have demanded that the NIP be broken already. In fact they would never have voted for it in the first place. They did vote for it, because they knew they didn't have a single viable alternative to offer. Just like you still don't have an alternative to offer that doesn't involve ignoring reality.

And no it's NOTHING to do with Remainers. This was created by Brexiteers, voted through by Brexiteers. Own this shitshow, like a real grown up person. Instead of pretending it's nothing to do with you like a petulant child.

[dribbles]

@dribbles: which of these do you pick

- leaving the EU
- GFA
- UK = England+Wales+Scotland+Northern Ireland

If you pick all 3 please explain to the class how it can be achieved simultanously.

We have left the EU.
The GFA is intact until the EU decide to break it, the UK will not.
The UK Union, including Northern Ireland is intact.

We have right now achieved all three simultaneously. Class dismissed.

Sigh. We've explained this to you before dribbles. You believing that your obdurate ways make you immune to reality doesn't make it so.

If the UK break the NIP, then it creates a hard border in Ireland. So....to keep this nice and simple for you; the UK breaks the NIP. Ergo the creation of the hard border in Ireland, which occurs because the NIP is broken, is because of the actions of the UK.

So it isn't a "choice of the EU". That's utter nonsense that nobody with functioning braincells would believe.

If it were as easy as you think, the ERG would have demanded that the NIP be broken already. In fact they would never have voted for it in the first place. They did vote for it, because they knew they didn't have a single viable alternative to offer. Just like you still don't have an alternative to offer that doesn't involve ignoring reality.

And no it's NOTHING to do with Remainers. This was created by Brexiteers, voted through by Brexiteers. Own this shitshow, like a real grown up person. Instead of pretending it's nothing to do with you like a petulant child.

It will be for the people of Northern Ireland and the DUP to decide if the NI protocol is acceptable or even continues, not the UK or the EU and is provided for in the consent mechanism that at Brexit D-Day remainers in the UK drew up and the EU agreed to.

In a demonstration of democracy NI get the chance to vote on the continuation of the NIP and have a say next year. The ERG are demanding nothing other than the wishes of the DUP, the consent mechanism and the Belfast Agreement are respected, the EU accept the obligations they signed up to at the time of Brexit and democracy is restored to Northern Ireland.

It is the fault and a flaw of the EU that they think they can apply EU laws to Northern Ireland, with ECJ oversight, without any democratic representation or say in where those laws are made. Northern Ireland is not a colony of some EU empire as you seem to think it should be. The NIP was intended to be temporary and subservient to the GFA in the short term to get Brexit done but that cannot be acceptable moving forwards long term to the UK or the people of Northern Ireland and certainly means the EU are not taking consideration of ‘necessary measures, considering the obligations of the parties to the 1998 [Belfast (Good Friday)] Agreement’ as they agreed and signed up to.

No one forced the EU to sign the flawed and created by remainers, not Brexiteers who wanted to go WTO at the time, NIP other than they were persuaded by remainers who knew exactly what they were doing trying to thwart Brexit. That was the choice and free will of the EU complicit with devious remainers, you saying otherwise does not make it true.

It is anti-democratic remainers and the EU who have conspired to break the GFA not the UK or Brexiteers. It is your shitshow to own, not mine.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It will be for the people of Northern Ireland and the DUP to decide if the NI protocol is acceptable or even continues, not the UK or the EU and is provided for in the consent mechanism that at Brexit D-Day remainers in the UK drew up and the EU agreed to.

In a demonstration of democracy NI get the chance to vote on the continuation of the NIP and have a say next year. The ERG are demanding nothing other than the wishes of the DUP, the consent mechanism and the Belfast Agreement are respected, the EU accept the obligations they signed up to at the time of Brexit and democracy is restored to Northern Ireland.

It is the fault and a flaw of the EU that they think they can apply EU laws to Northern Ireland, with ECJ oversight, without any democratic representation or say in where those laws are made. Northern Ireland is not a colony of some EU empire as you seem to think it should be. The NIP was intended to be temporary and subservient to the GFA in the short term to get Brexit done but that cannot be acceptable moving forwards long term to the UK or the people of Northern Ireland and certainly means the EU are not taking consideration of ‘necessary measures, considering the obligations of the parties to the 1998 [Belfast (Good Friday)] Agreement’ as they agreed and signed up to.

No one forced the EU to sign the flawed and created by remainers, not Brexiteers who wanted to go WTO at the time, NIP other than they were persuaded by remainers who knew exactly what they were doing trying to thwart Brexit. That was the choice and free will of the EU complicit with devious remainers, you saying otherwise does not make it true.

It is anti-democratic remainers and the EU who have conspired to break the GFA not the UK or Brexiteers. It is your shitshow to own, not mine.

Answer me one simple question then dribbles; if all this bullshit you've peddled in this post is true (it isn't, but let's play a thought exercise nonetheless), WHY DID THE ERG AND ALL THE OTHER BREXITEERS VOTE FOR THE NIP?

Were they stupid? Did they not understand what they were voting for? Were they acting in bad faith, voting for something they intended to unpick at the earliest opportunity? Which isn't a great look for a country needing to negotiate a LOT of new treaties with countries outside of the EU now.

There isn't a third option. Either Brexiteers are all fucking idiots and voted for something they didn't understand, or they voted for an international agreement they intended to renege on. Which of those covers you dribbles?

So which are they dribbles? Stupid or untrustworthy?

- - - Updated - - -

We have left the EU.
The GFA is intact until the EU decide to break it, the UK will not.
The UK Union, including Northern Ireland is intact.

We have right now achieved all three simultaneously. Class dismissed.

There is currently a trade border between the UK mainland and NI. Are you suggesting that trade border is irrelevant to the cohesion of the UK? Because if you are, it solves the problem of the NIP, you can just leave it there.

Or you're being deliberately disingenuous. Class dismissed my fucking arse.

[Twdft]

We have left the EU.
The GFA is intact until the EU decide to break it, the UK will not.
The UK Union, including Northern Ireland is intact.

We have right now achieved all three simultaneously. Class dismissed.

As mental gymnastics go I rate this a perfect 10.

But I think I'm getting your thought process. My mistake was to assume that Brexiteers accept any consequences of their actions. You leave the EU but will not accept this means a border somewhere, not between NI and the rest of the UK and also not between NI and Ireland. You close your eyes and accuse EU of breaking the GFA when it erects a border that became necessary due to leaving the EU.

[dribbles]

Answer me one simple question then dribbles; if all this bullshit you've peddled in this post is true (it isn't, but let's play a thought exercise nonetheless), WHY DID THE ERG AND ALL THE OTHER BREXITEERS VOTE FOR THE NIP?

Were they stupid? Did they not understand what they were voting for? Were they acting in bad faith, voting for something they intended to unpick at the earliest opportunity? Which isn't a great look for a country needing to negotiate a LOT of new treaties with countries outside of the EU now.

There isn't a third option. Either Brexiteers are all fucking idiots and voted for something they didn't understand, or they voted for an international agreement they intended to renege on. Which of those covers you dribbles?

So which are they dribbles? Stupid or untrustworthy?

The ERG only voted for the NIP if the consent mechanism was included within it. Something that has to be re-validated every four years surely cannot be considered as permanent, so of course the ERG knew what they voted for and the EU agreed to this temporary arrangement.

The primary concern at that time was to get Brexit done, and the temporary NIP agreed by all sides that could be unpicked at any time in the future enabled this.

I am sure it wasn't the intention at the time of the remainers or the EU who put together the NIP to break the GFA, but just look at what you have done with that meddling in the Brexit process. If only the result of the Brexit referendum had been accepted and respected.

Don't try to pin this on Brexiteers...

[jonnysensible]

If only the result of the Brexit referendum had been accepted and respected.

Don't try to pin this on Brexiteers...

It was and its been done by brexiteers. This is what you won. Brexit is going to dominate politics for the rest of our lives.

Aren't you constantly banging on about leaving the ECHR which would break the GFA?

We know you dont give a fuck about the GFA why bother with the pretense?

[Gorsameth]

The ERG only voted for the NIP if the consent mechanism was included within it. Something that has to be re-validated every four years surely cannot be considered as permanent, so of course the ERG knew what they voted for and the EU agreed to this temporary arrangement.

The primary concern at that time was to get Brexit done, and the temporary NIP agreed by all sides that could be unpicked at any time in the future enabled this.

I am sure it wasn't the intention at the time of the remainers or the EU who put together the NIP to break the GFA, but just look at what you have done with that meddling in the Brexit process. If only the result of the Brexit referendum had been accepted and respected.

Don't try to pin this on Brexiteers...

the NIP is a Brexit idea, not EU. May (was it may? you go through PM's so fast these days) couldn't get Brexit to work because she wasn't willing to break up the Union. Boris was happy to throw out NI, that is why he 'got Brexit done'. The NIP is a Brexit idea.

[Iliena]

Don't try to pin this on Brexiteers...

We don't need to try, its 100% dumbfuck Brexiteers fault and isn't even up for debate.

[Huehuecoyotl]

The ERG only voted for the NIP if the consent mechanism was included within it. Something that has to be re-validated every four years surely cannot be considered as permanent, so of course the ERG knew what they voted for and the EU agreed to this temporary arrangement.

The primary concern at that time was to get Brexit done, and the temporary NIP agreed by all sides that could be unpicked at any time in the future enabled this.

I am sure it wasn't the intention at the time of the remainers or the EU who put together the NIP to break the GFA, but just look at what you have done with that meddling in the Brexit process. If only the result of the Brexit referendum had been accepted and respected.

Don't try to pin this on Brexiteers...

You got your Brexit. Your Brexiteers got complete control over Brexit. You can fuck off with attempting to wriggle out of responsibility for this pile of shit now that it's all gone wrong.

The NIP was the ONLY way you could get Brexit and not break the GFA. Which means it's only temporary if you're happy to break the GFA agreement when you wriggle out of it. That's your choice; keep the GFA and NIP, and have a border between GB and NI, or lose the NIP and GFA and have a border in Ireland.

Those are your only choices, and it doesn't matter if you're a Remainer or Brexiteer. Where you stand on this doesn't alter the facts.

The only way to avoid it would be to get a Norway style deal, which would be in all regards WORSE than the position we were in as part of the EU. It would still be better than what we have today, though.

Brexiteers broke this, Brexiteers can fucking fix it.

[Edge-]

@dribbles oh no, the express seem to have been taken over by eurochums.

Who could have ever predicted these outcomes from brexit except literally everyone with a brain who has been paying any attention.

Truly, the envy of the developed world what with those peacetime, non-famine driven rationing of produce.

[dribbles]

You got your Brexit. Your Brexiteers got complete control over Brexit. You can fuck off with attempting to wriggle out of responsibility for this pile of shit now that it's all gone wrong.

The NIP was the ONLY way you could get Brexit and not break the GFA. Which means it's only temporary if you're happy to break the GFA agreement when you wriggle out of it. That's your choice; keep the GFA and NIP, and have a border between GB and NI, or lose the NIP and GFA and have a border in Ireland.

Those are your only choices, and it doesn't matter if you're a Remainer or Brexiteer. Where you stand on this doesn't alter the facts.

The only way to avoid it would be to get a Norway style deal, which would be in all regards WORSE than the position we were in as part of the EU. It would still be better than what we have today, though.

Brexiteers broke this, Brexiteers can fucking fix it.

Actually many wise sages in the current Tory government are openly saying the EU have already broken the GFA.

With its Protocol, the EU has broken the Belfast Agreement’s promise of consent The EU’s insistence that all new laws passed by the EU apply to Northern Ireland breaks that promise of consent

https://www.centrefortheunion.co.uk/...ereign-country

Perhaps the GFA and the EU's failed remainer and brokered NIP is something we no longer have to worry about.

@dribbles oh no, the express seem to have been taken over by eurochums.

Who could have ever predicted these outcomes from brexit except literally everyone with a brain who has been paying any attention.

Truly, the envy of the developed world what with those peacetime, non-famine driven rationing of produce.

Temporary supermarket profiteering who have taken the decision not to stock items that have risen in price, they can't easily make a profit on, due to the global cost of living crisis caused by ridiculous pandemic lockdowns and the Ukraine situation driving up energy costs. At this time of year much of Britain's food imports come from Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt, last I looked not in the EU, who have faced an unusually cold winter coupled with the Tomato brown rugose virus. Nothing to do with Brexit.

Most farmers and suppliers have said they do not believe the UK’s exit from the EU is the main reason for the UK’s empty supermarket shelves

https://www.theguardian.com/business...k-supermarkets

Home grown Brexit veg tastes and is far better for you in any case. No shortage of seeds at my local Garden Centre, thank you for reminding me to stock up. But if there is any loose connection to Brexit which can be found, which I doubt, then a bit of encouragement for some exercise in the garden and better vegetables on the table as a result can surely be seen as a Brexit benefit.

[Edge-]

Temporary supermarket profiteering who have taken the decision not to stock items that have risen in price, they can't easily make a profit on, due to the global cost of living crisis caused by ridiculous pandemic lockdowns and the Ukraine situation driving up energy costs. At this time of year much of Britain's food imports come from Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt, last I looked not in the EU, who have faced an unusually cold winter coupled with the Tomato brown rugose virus. Nothing to do with Brexit.

Most farmers and suppliers have said they do not believe the UK’s exit from the EU is the main reason for the UK’s empty supermarket shelves

https://www.theguardian.com/business...k-supermarkets

Home grown Brexit veg tastes and is far better for you in any case. No shortage of seeds at my local Garden Centre, thank you for reminding me to stock up. But if there is any loose connection to Brexit which can be found, which I doubt, then a bit of encouragement for some exercise in the garden and better vegetables on the table as a result can surely be seen as a Brexit benefit.

Are things worse in the UK than the rest of Europe?
It seems so. There are no reports of shortages in France and Germany and European shoppers have shared photos on social media of full supermarket shelves, in stark contrast to British supermarkets.

One issue is reduced output from British farms. The president of the National Farmers’ Union (NFU), Minette Batters, told the union’s annual conference on Tuesday that “domestic production of salad, including cucumbers and tomatoes, has fallen to its lowest level since records began in 1985”.

In the UK, a cold snap and frost before Christmas also damaged field crops including cauliflower, cabbage and carrots.

Batters has warned there might be further rationing of salad items to come, especially if growers’ energy bills remain high.

With many British tomato and salad growers having chosen to delaying planting in recent months because of economic uncertainty, UK production will not be able to pick up the slack for several weeks, and will probably begin later than in a normal year.

As a result, demand for Spanish and Moroccan produce to fill the gap has outstripped supply, and retailers cannot access as much food as they need, or face paying significantly higher prices for what is available.

Rofl, eurochums are still eating good.