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  1. #61
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    As opposed to raiding, which of course is well known as a completely different experience every time you enter and on your 150th wipe.
    Didn't used to be that way. Didn't used to wipe more than a few dozen times, progressed further in the raid, and then moved on to other raids...not the exact same raid with a slider turned up a notch.

    Blizz used to have the decency to provide more dungeons and more raids to keep you on the treadmill...not the same 9 scenes on a loop with the treadmill tilted up another degree....

  2. #62
    Valor is in no way a "catch-up" system? It's one of two prime sources of gear in M+, the other being vault.

    I don't really like the valor cap either, but if you want to remove it permanently you probably need to remove loot lockouts for raid as well*. Let the people farm raid bosses.

    I think end-of-dungeon loot is too good in M+, tbh. HC raid gear is useless outside items that are raid specific (trinkets, special weapons and tier). This is a weird setup, in that M+ gives you the vanilla high ilvl items (which you need) while raid gives the special items with oomph (which you also need), which means that at any level of raiding or M+ you really have to do both unless you make a conscious decision to forgo loot upgrades which you're otherwise good enough/geared enough to get.

    If end-of dungeon items were lowered (and you got more valor to compensate), at least M+ would have a weekly cap comparable to raid that could be tuned. You still have the problem of doing both raid and M+ giving double the rewards of doing either. The only solution for that would be to swap raids over to a valor system as well - raid drops get lower ilvl, but you can spend valor to upgrade them - which now also is a reward from raid bosses, and valor is still weekly capped.

    *I do not think this is a good idea

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Didn't used to be that way. Didn't used to wipe more than a few dozen times, progressed further in the raid, and then moved on to other raids...not the exact same raid with a slider turned up a notch.

    Blizz used to have the decency to provide more dungeons and more raids to keep you on the treadmill...not the same 9 scenes on a loop with the treadmill tilted up another degree....
    Ah yes, I remember when I cleared Kara on TBC release and walked straight into the next highest diffi oh wait there wasn't another raid until the next patch came out. So I just cleared Kara without wiping on a single boss more than ten times and then did the exact same thing with no semblance of challenge for another 6 months, that was pretty cool. It was made even better by how all the dungeon gear was completely useless and I never got to do small group content again once T5 came out. That was heaps better than having the option to do easy Heroic reclears, prog mythic, or do M+ with my friends. God I wish I had less choice again.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I am a key pusher and raids having better ilvl than what I can get + some clearly superior items (trinkets/rings) is not up my alley either. Almost as if Blizz had done something really good in SL S4 but deterministic loot somehow is the opposite what they want I suppose.

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    And raids are what? You get 8 different fights which would equate 8 different dungeons, except that after first kill of the boss - the boss never gets harder and always gets easier and there is minimal variation to it. I know it's not for everyone, but when you put it through that prism, raiding doesn't sound that interesting either.
    Actually pushing it through that prism is what makes it appealing to me. It means that once I kill the boss, I don’t need to go back (with exception for a BiS piece if it drops). I don’t raid for logs or gear, I raid to get that first kill with people I like!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Ah yes, I remember when I cleared Kara on TBC release and walked straight into the next highest diffi oh wait there wasn't another raid until the next patch came out. So I just cleared Kara without wiping on a single boss more than ten times and then did the exact same thing with no semblance of challenge for another 6 months, that was pretty cool. It was made even better by how all the dungeon gear was completely useless and I never got to do small group content again once T5 came out. That was heaps better than having the option to do easy Heroic reclears, prog mythic, or do M+ with my friends. God I wish I had less choice again.
    You say this sarcastically, but I loved that. A lot of room to have more banter once it was done. I also love the idea of taking a month or two off before the next tier without getting behind. Can’t really do that now. Even with taking a month or two off at the end of the tier in the good ole days, I was more consistently subbed than I am now.

  5. #65
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Ah yes, I remember when I cleared Kara on TBC release and walked straight into the next highest diffi oh wait there wasn't another raid until the next patch came out. So I just cleared Kara without wiping on a single boss more than ten times and then did the exact same thing with no semblance of challenge for another 6 months, that was pretty cool. It was made even better by how all the dungeon gear was completely useless and I never got to do small group content again once T5 came out. That was heaps better than having the option to do easy Heroic reclears, prog mythic, or do M+ with my friends. God I wish I had less choice again.
    I know this is obvious sarcasm but it many respects this was a far more casual friendly option. Yes it was easy for you but it was probably just about right for most everybody else and it didn't segregate people like today's current loop. It wasn't perfect by any means and parts of it were casual unfriendly but easier raids with only one difficulty available is far better for more people than today's set up which is primarily meant to cater to mythic raiders.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #66
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Raiding is harder to organize, takes more time, is not repeatable and rewards LESS than mythic plus... And to top that shit off, NOT timing a key still gives you that vault reward. How did that ever make it into the game?

    At this point they should just admit they care more for mythic plus and their horseshit MDI bullcrap than they do raiding.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    At this point they should just admit they care more for mythic plus and their horseshit MDI bullcrap than they do raiding.
    Well, if this was true it would be one of the very few things that have managed to make it past Ion's thick skull and his historical pro-raider bias. M+ is single-handedly keeping the game afloat, at least when it comes to PvE - just imagine what would DF look like without M+ (or with heavy nerfs to M+ loot): it would just be WoD all over again, except that the game is no longer in a position to withstand yet another WoD- (or SL-) sized trainwreck.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post

    "If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?


    Its only not an option because YOU choose to make it such. If you dont like doing it, just dont. The minimal upgrades aren't going to make or break anything for a guild progging this late.




    Don't attempt ruining the game for others because of your own personal demons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Raiding is harder to organize, takes more time, is not repeatable and rewards LESS than mythic plus... And to top that shit off, NOT timing a key still gives you that vault reward. How did that ever make it into the game?

    At this point they should just admit they care more for mythic plus and their horseshit MDI bullcrap than they do raiding.


    Even if they do care more (disagree on that but an argument for another time) does it really matter? M+ is likely more appealing to the majority of the playerbase due to the ease of finding a group, jumping in, and playing at whatever level is appropriate for your skill level. You dont need to organize your schedule with 20+ other players. You just log in when you have free time and there are always many groups ready to go at any hour of the day.



    Raiding still has the highest item level pieces in the game and now they also get special "rare" pieces, most of which are exceptionally powerful.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Ah yes, I remember when I cleared Kara on TBC release and walked straight into the next highest diffi oh wait there wasn't another raid until the next patch came out. So I just cleared Kara without wiping on a single boss more than ten times and then did the exact same thing with no semblance of challenge for another 6 months, that was pretty cool. It was made even better by how all the dungeon gear was completely useless and I never got to do small group content again once T5 came out. That was heaps better than having the option to do easy Heroic reclears, prog mythic, or do M+ with my friends. God I wish I had less choice again.
    Except for the part where TBC had most of its raids available on release. All the way to Hyjal, i.e. the first half of T6. So you couldn't have picked a worse example of an expansion here.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #70
    Where exactly did they say this? Because the developer attitude towards this has been that if you want the very very best gear, you might have to do other content than that which you prefer, and the devs are happy with this. Ion has said it many times in interviews these last expansions.

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