Bored after 2 months of DF

[Malkiah]

I’d think we’d just call that re playability and would have to separate it from actual quantity of content.

alright, fair enough.

DF has fuck-all replayability thus far compared to previous expansions.

[VMSmith]

that seems like a kinda useless way to use the term “content” personally.

Do you see dungeons and raids as one-time content, then? Because that seems to be what you're implying, that future runs of these don't count as content, only the very first time you go through them.

I'm not saying that's not a valid viewpoint, but I think you'll find hardly anyone agreeing with the concept that being repeatable does not increase the content value of a piece of content.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Do you see dungeons and raids as one-time content, then? Because that seems to be what you're implying, that future runs of these don't count as content, only the very first time you go through them.

I'm not saying that's not a valid viewpoint, but I think you'll find hardly anyone agreeing with the concept that being repeatable does not increase the content value of a piece of content.

Only way I could see one time content applying to wow would be things like quest lines or scenarios you can’t reply, a raid or dungeon you can go back and play as much or as little as you want it doesn’t become unavailable, if you could only kills boss once then ya it would be one time content but killing that boss continually doesn’t make it more content.

- - - Updated - - -

alright, fair enough.

DF has fuck-all replayability thus far compared to previous expansions.

Sure I can agree to that, I know I repeated world quest way more in say BFA then I will in DF.

[VMSmith]

killing that boss continually doesn’t make it more content.

Ok, thank you for answering. Your position appears to be that raids and dungeons (and everything) are only considered "content" for the first time a player partakes of them. Again, not saying that's not a valid position to hold, but I doubt nearly anyone would agree with you. particularly since this would make raids and dungeons the absolute worst value if your goal is to have a plethora of "content", given that they are expensive to make and can be completed within 30 minutes to a few hours and then they would no longer be content, by your definition.

This position seems antithetical to the entire concept of MMOs, which is that replayability is the focus of everything since there's no humanly possible way a dev team could create enough individual content to last more than a few days, tops.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ok, thank you for answering. Your position appears to be that raids and dungeons (and everything) are only considered "content" for the first time a player partakes of them. Again, not saying that's not a valid position to hold, but I doubt nearly anyone would agree with you. particularly since this would make raids and dungeons the absolute worst value if your goal is to have a plethora of "content", given that they are expensive to make and can be completed within 30 minutes to a few hours and then they would no longer be content, by your definition.

This position seems antithetical to the entire concept of MMOs, which is that replayability is the focus of everything since there's no humanly possible way a dev team could create enough individual content to last more than a few days, tops.

That’s the opposite of what I just said.

Repeating a boss not making it more content =/= killing a boss the first time makes it no longer content.

[Rageonit]

Any chance you could link to those post?

I think Malkiah explained it better than I've ever could (and would want to), but just for the sake of it: DF has not only less replayability; it also has less content, period. SL had more Renown/Campaign quests, by far; NF garden unlocked a bit of quests for the cosmetic souls; the Mushroom guy unlocked dailies; both Kyrian arena and Venthyr feasts unlocked plenty of quests in the open world; as, obviously, did the Necrolord weeklies. SL also had the Maw, since release, and all the quests related to Ve'nari.

But most of all, Shadowland systems/features made players interact with the world. Upgrading Cov features required Anima, which gave you incentive to do WQs/rares later on; NF garden required souls, which made you interact with the Maw; Kyrian arena items required world drops from all zones, which, again, made you interact with the world; Venthyr feasts obviously required you to do the quests for invitations, in the open world. No matter what you did, you had plenty of reasons to interact with the world.

What's exactly the incentive of interacting with open world in DF? Other than Renown, which I maxed out already. What's the point of doing it now? Especially if you consider the "quality" of content available: static races I already did on Gold; poor quality events like the soup and siege, which have, literally, zero variety; Tuskarr weeklies (scare off 10 mobs/catch 3 fish and throw them into the water, week in week out); climbing/photograph dailes that give zero tangible rewards... The core of an RPG game is character development. I don't care what kind of development it is, but there has to be something that makes those activities alluring. Because on their own, those features are bad, and more so in DF (again, lack of variety/quality). It's neither exciting nor challenging, to do a climbing daily. Why do it, then? It's an epitome of a damn "facebook game", and I truly believe people who praise/defend those things don't deserve any better.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

It's not exactly a fair comparison is it? DF is still early in its expansion whereas we have the whole of Legion, BFA, and SL to compare it to.

Consider Legion then PRIOR to 7.1.0, how much content was there? Suramar's questline at this point ended with the opening of Court of Stars and The Arcway. 2 "launch" dungeons that players couldn't access until they grinded the rep and storyline. Mage Tower wasn't added until 7.2 and Legion Legendaries were STUPID hard to get. It was actually faster to level up a WoD max level toon through Legion and get their first Legion legendary than to get a second legion legendary on your initial toon. Return to Karazhan was added as a mega-dungeon at 7.1 and wasn't converted to M+ status until later.

So Legion came out with M+ which was a brand new feature at the time. You had your artifacts and AP farm, artifact appearances, class order hall campaigns and artifcat knowledge, mission table, and some class order halls had their own mini-games. That's already more content than what DF has to offer. Aside from that, you had Suramar, Arcwine and Ancient mana farm, Withered Training, Light's Heart questline, Dalaran Underbelly, World Quests galore, Legendaries, Emissaries, and people actually had a reason to kill rares and spend time looking for chests.

You had something to do whenever you logged in because almost all of these activities provided meaningful rewards. You could get a legendary from a random chest or a random piece of loot could titanforge. DF is barren in comparison. The only meaningful activities are raiding and M+, but apparently people are fine with raiding simulator.

But what's even better is that you say it's too early to judge DF but it's already been almost 3 months since it dropped. By this point in Legion we already had EN, Karazhan, and ToV and people were preparing for the Nighthold. DF's next raid/dungeon seems to be at least 3 months away, could be even more than that. They really dropped the ball after Legion.

[FelPlague]

So Legion came out with M+ which was a brand new feature at the time. You had your artifacts and AP farm, artifact appearances, class order hall campaigns and artifcat knowledge, mission table, and some class order halls had their own mini-games. That's already more content than what DF has to offer. Aside from that, you had Suramar, Arcwine and Ancient mana farm, Withered Training, Light's Heart questline, Dalaran Underbelly, World Quests galore, Legendaries, Emissaries, and people actually had a reason to kill rares and spend time looking for chests.

You had something to do whenever you logged in because almost all of these activities provided meaningful rewards. You could get a legendary from a random chest or a random piece of loot could titanforge. DF is barren in comparison. The only meaningful activities are raiding and M+, but apparently people are fine with raiding simulator.

But what's even better is that you say it's too early to judge DF but it's already been almost 3 months since it dropped. By this point in Legion we already had EN, Karazhan, and ToV and people were preparing for the Nighthold. DF's next raid/dungeon seems to be at least 3 months away, could be even more than that. They really dropped the ball after Legion.

Artifact was not content, it was a weekly nerf, that is like saying the weekly azerite xp requirment reduction was content.
arcwine? wut? the arcwine item was an ancient mana consumable, why list arcwine and ancient mana when literally 100% the exact same thing. Where is gaidex now?
Also once you looted all the chests and rares once there was no longer a reason to kill them again unless it was a world quest rare, nor was there any more chests to get, as they didn't respawn, all chests in legion were 1 time loot treasures, no respawning.
Artifact appearances replaced the expansions weapon drops, so while cool in concept they were added at the expense of the expansions normal weapon drops.
imagine praising titan forging.


also you can't even really compare anything content wise to legion, cause no expansion before or since had almost 2 years of development because of how they abandoned wod LONG before they normally would an expansion.

also nighthold did not come out till 5 months after launch, if the new raid in 3 months away that only makes it 1 month later.
they dropped the ball after legion cause legion was an extreme exception.


and lastly wanna point out, legion did not drop during the holidays like dragonflight did, which will set it back atleast 2-3 weeks.

[VMSmith]

That’s the opposite of what I just said.

Repeating a boss not making it more content =/= killing a boss the first time makes it no longer content.

Ok, you're confusing me. You said that 15 one-time quests would be more content than 10 repeatable quests, but now you appear to be saying that killing a boss repeatedly is more content than killing it only once.

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you consider content at this point so I'd rather drop it and assume that, to you, what you like repeating is more content and what you don't like repeating is not more content.

Have a nice day!

[FelPlague]

Ok, you're confusing me. You said that 15 one-time quests would be more content than 10 repeatable quests, but now you appear to be saying that killing a boss repeatedly is more content than killing it only once.

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you consider content at this point so I'd rather drop it and assume that, to you, what you like repeating is more content and what you don't like repeating is not more content.

Have a nice day!

Because fighting a boss is a challenge, it is fun and exciting. fighting bosses is not 100% about experiencing it for the first time, it is also about beating more difficult versions of them.
quests are easy, they are about their content as story, now if there was "Mythic quests" which were harder versions of the quests sure, but quests are one and done, while hard content like raids M+ and pvp because of their difficulty is what gives them their replayabiltiy.

[voskopoula]

Just my 2 words of wisdom.

it is like drugs i guess or ..sex with the same partner lol. You get less excited as the time goes by :P

Dragonflight is fun ,it was a good surprise for me at least. What you feel is normal and it is because we play the same game for years. We do breaks etc ok but we return for the memories we have from this game and the friends. You cant feel the same excitement as in vanilla etc. It is normal. Dont worry about it, you are not betraying your love/drug (wow). It is a common thing .

[Lolites]

And here's the kicker - I don't even need to compare to previous expansions to tell you that fucking soup and "siege" as world content is PATHETIC. How 'bout that, huh?

sounds like "i have nothing but my ego wont let me admit it"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think Malkiah explained it better than I've ever could (and would want to), but just for the sake of it: DF has not only less replayability; it also has less content, period. SL had more Renown/Campaign quests, by far; NF garden unlocked a bit of quests for the cosmetic souls; the Mushroom guy unlocked dailies; both Kyrian arena and Venthyr feasts unlocked plenty of quests in the open world; as, obviously, did the Necrolord weeklies. SL also had the Maw, since release, and all the quests related to Ve'nari.

Ah your right I had totally forgot about things like the covenant mini games and the maw.

Ya DF likely would be behind SL on the actual
Amount with those things as even though I only did the kyrian one it was huge so that X4 would be a ton even without the maw as well.

[Zorachus]

I think Malkiah explained it better than I've ever could (and would want to), but just for the sake of it: DF has not only less replayability; it also has less content, period. SL had more Renown/Campaign quests, by far; NF garden unlocked a bit of quests for the cosmetic souls; the Mushroom guy unlocked dailies; both Kyrian arena and Venthyr feasts unlocked plenty of quests in the open world; as, obviously, did the Necrolord weeklies. SL also had the Maw, since release, and all the quests related to Ve'nari.

But most of all, Shadowland systems/features made players interact with the world. Upgrading Cov features required Anima, which gave you incentive to do WQs/rares later on; NF garden required souls, which made you interact with the Maw; Kyrian arena items required world drops from all zones, which, again, made you interact with the world; Venthyr feasts obviously required you to do the quests for invitations, in the open world. No matter what you did, you had plenty of reasons to interact with the world.

What's exactly the incentive of interacting with open world in DF? Other than Renown, which I maxed out already. What's the point of doing it now? Especially if you consider the "quality" of content available: static races I already did on Gold; poor quality events like the soup and siege, which have, literally, zero variety; Tuskarr weeklies (scare off 10 mobs/catch 3 fish and throw them into the water, week in week out); climbing/photograph dailes that give zero tangible rewards... The core of an RPG game is character development. I don't care what kind of development it is, but there has to be something that makes those activities alluring. Because on their own, those features are bad, and more so in DF (again, lack of variety/quality). It's neither exciting nor challenging, to do a climbing daily. Why do it, then? It's an epitome of a damn "facebook game", and I truly believe people who praise/defend those things don't deserve any better.

Totally agree

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So Legion came out with M+ which was a brand new feature at the time. You had your artifacts and AP farm, artifact appearances, class order hall campaigns and artifcat knowledge, mission table, and some class order halls had their own mini-games. That's already more content than what DF has to offer. Aside from that, you had Suramar, Arcwine and Ancient mana farm, Withered Training, Light's Heart questline, Dalaran Underbelly, World Quests galore, Legendaries, Emissaries, and people actually had a reason to kill rares and spend time looking for chests.

You had something to do whenever you logged in because almost all of these activities provided meaningful rewards. You could get a legendary from a random chest or a random piece of loot could titanforge. DF is barren in comparison. The only meaningful activities are raiding and M+, but apparently people are fine with raiding simulator.

But what's even better is that you say it's too early to judge DF but it's already been almost 3 months since it dropped. By this point in Legion we already had EN, Karazhan, and ToV and people were preparing for the Nighthold. DF's next raid/dungeon seems to be at least 3 months away, could be even more than that. They really dropped the ball after Legion.

Legion was hands down the best expansion we've had in years. I would give Legion an A- grade, then BfA a grade of C, and then Shittylands a grade of D. Right now it's too early to grade Dragonflight, but so far I'd give it a B- / C+ grade. But they need to release more content ASAP or it will start losing players quick.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ok, you're confusing me. You said that 15 one-time quests would be more content than 10 repeatable quests, but now you appear to be saying that killing a boss repeatedly is more content than killing it only once.

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you consider content at this point so I'd rather drop it and assume that, to you, what you like repeating is more content and what you don't like repeating is not more content.

Have a nice day!

Um no I just said that killing a boss repeatedly doesn’t make it more content.

Like just look at my post about DS 2 and elden ring, the fact that I like to repeat DS2 doesn’t mean I think it has more content then elden ring which I’ll never repeat.

[Alroxas]

So Legion came out with M+ which was a brand new feature at the time. You had your artifacts and AP farm, artifact appearances, class order hall campaigns and artifcat knowledge, mission table, and some class order halls had their own mini-games. That's already more content than what DF has to offer. Aside from that, you had Suramar, Arcwine and Ancient mana farm, Withered Training, Light's Heart questline, Dalaran Underbelly, World Quests galore, Legendaries, Emissaries, and people actually had a reason to kill rares and spend time looking for chests. .

But how many of those activities were done out of "fun" or out of progression? Not saying that they can be both but for the majority of players, what you call "content" was effectively "chores" to do on the off-chance it gives you a power gain (i.e. Legion Legendary) or a incremental power gain that is harder to measure day to day but could show up as a significant difference after weeks (if not months) of grinding.

You had something to do whenever you logged in because almost all of these activities provided meaningful rewards. You could get a legendary from a random chest or a random piece of loot could titanforge. DF is barren in comparison.

Conversely you could also see that you should always be doing something in game during that expansion because you were never really done with progression. Run that extra M+ for AP, complete that extra emissary for building up that BLP so eventually (maybe) you get another legendary (hopefully a good one and not a utility one).


It may seem barren to you, but it also means that unless you do M+/raiding there is a very distinct END POINT that can easily be achieved. Even with M+ and raiding, there are finite endpoints sooner rather than later.

For a portion of the playerbase this is good. We don't feel like little hamsters running in a wheel chasing that 0.00001% power gain each time we log in. We can say, hey we've reached X plateau of player power and to go higher is either not possible or not worth the effort to do so.

[Rageonit]

It may seem barren to you, but it also means that unless you do M+/raiding there is a very distinct END POINT that can easily be achieved. Even with M+ and raiding, there are finite endpoints sooner rather than later.
For a portion of the playerbase this is good. We don't feel like little hamsters running in a wheel chasing that 0.00001% power gain each time we log in. We can say, hey we've reached X plateau of player power and to go higher is either not possible or not worth the effort to do so.

What you're missing here is that, for a portion of the playerbase, that distinc END POINT means that there's nothing else to do. The game basically ends, because there's a wall that cuts any kind of progress. So that thing that's supposedly "good for a portion of the playerbase" comes at a cost of the other portion of the playerbase being, in practice, deprived of any incentive to play. And why? Because some players are unable to simply acknowledge that, even when there's a nebuolus goal to chase, you really don't HAVE TO chase it right here and right now. But alas, if you don't, you won't win the meters, and it will be so, so painful that we all should sympathize and renounce the things we enjoy so you don't have to suffer that terrible pain.

[Aliven]

Multiple people gave you multiple examples already. There's no point to do it anymore, because you've proven, again and again, that you're organically unable to differentiate between "lazy content" and "content you personally don't enjoy". One can give you an example of the most ambitious feature, and you will simply respond that you didn't enjoy it and you enjoy the soup event, therefore the soup event is better. Having a meaningful conversation with you is impossible, becasue you refuse to follow the very principles of a honest conversation - either on purpose, or because you don't understand them. Even when factually wrong, you put the blame on your interlocutor. As such, I would strongly discourage anyone of trying to prove anything to you. It's a futile task; a waste of time, to speak plainly.

Yeah, he/she will defend blizzard and be so white knightly to progress into brown knighting.

[jeezusisacasual]

What you're missing here is that, for a portion of the playerbase, that distinc END POINT means that there's nothing else to do. The game basically ends, because there's a wall that cuts any kind of progress. So that thing that's supposedly "good for a portion of the playerbase" comes at a cost of the other portion of the playerbase being, in practice, deprived of any incentive to play. And why? Because some players are unable to simply acknowledge that, even when there's a nebuolus goal to chase, you really don't HAVE TO chase it right here and right now. But alas, if you don't, you won't win the meters, and it will be so, so painful that we all should sympathize and renounce the things we enjoy so you don't have to suffer that terrible pain.

Just do as i have done since M+ has came about. Get KSM, unsub then pick a new spec / class every content patch to make figuring out the game a bit more enticing. Once you get on that playing schedule you will stop giving a shit about ranking etc and you get that itch to come back for 4-6 weeks and allows you to spend more time in other gaming avenues.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

But how many of those activities were done out of "fun" or out of progression? Not saying that they can be both but for the majority of players, what you call "content" was effectively "chores" to do on the off-chance it gives you a power gain (i.e. Legion Legendary) or a incremental power gain that is harder to measure day to day but could show up as a significant difference after weeks (if not months) of grinding.





Conversely you could also see that you should always be doing something in game during that expansion because you were never really done with progression. Run that extra M+ for AP, complete that extra emissary for building up that BLP so eventually (maybe) you get another legendary (hopefully a good one and not a utility one).


It may seem barren to you, but it also means that unless you do M+/raiding there is a very distinct END POINT that can easily be achieved. Even with M+ and raiding, there are finite endpoints sooner rather than later.

For a portion of the playerbase this is good. We don't feel like little hamsters running in a wheel chasing that 0.00001% power gain each time we log in. We can say, hey we've reached X plateau of player power and to go higher is either not possible or not worth the effort to do so.

I did them out of fun. Nothing in Legion ever felt like a chore to me. I mean I don't know how many times you need to be told at this point that unless you were a Cutting Edge mythic raider the game never forced you to grind your brains out to clear content. I mean you do realize there are people who think M+ and raiding are a chore as they are the only way to progress in DF. Should we get rid of them too?

I was able to clear all heroic raids in Legion even tho I could play only a few hours a day. I was also having fun outside of raiding and M+. DF is unable to provide that kind of enjoyment.

Artifact was not content, it was a weekly nerf, that is like saying the weekly azerite xp requirment reduction was content.
arcwine? wut? the arcwine item was an ancient mana consumable, why list arcwine and ancient mana when literally 100% the exact same thing. Where is gaidex now?
Also once you looted all the chests and rares once there was no longer a reason to kill them again unless it was a world quest rare, nor was there any more chests to get, as they didn't respawn, all chests in legion were 1 time loot treasures, no respawning.
Artifact appearances replaced the expansions weapon drops, so while cool in concept they were added at the expense of the expansions normal weapon drops.
imagine praising titan forging.


also you can't even really compare anything content wise to legion, cause no expansion before or since had almost 2 years of development because of how they abandoned wod LONG before they normally would an expansion.

also nighthold did not come out till 5 months after launch, if the new raid in 3 months away that only makes it 1 month later.
they dropped the ball after legion cause legion was an extreme exception.


and lastly wanna point out, legion did not drop during the holidays like dragonflight did, which will set it back atleast 2-3 weeks.

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. They kinda abandoned SL too, and BfA before that. You'd think DF would have been filled to the brim with features. It's embarrassing to make excuses for why expansions are bad and barren. This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it.

You're also forgetting that between EN and Nighthold they released a Mega dungeon and a mini-raid. In DF they released.. a new haircut for your Orc.