Bored after 2 months of DF

[Gaidax]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. They kinda abandoned SL too, and BfA before that. You'd think DF would have been filled to the brim with features. It's embarrassing to make excuses for why expansions are bad and barren. This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it.

You're also forgetting that between EN and Nighthold they released a Mega dungeon and a mini-raid. In DF they released.. a new haircut for your Orc.

That is practically my problem with DF.

With Blizzard's resources, they absolutely could do more.

[Alroxas]

I did them out of fun. Nothing in Legion ever felt like a chore to me.

Not everyone shared that opinion so then the bigger issue is then how would Blizzard even attempt to satisfy all sides? The answer is they can't. Some players will feel bored while others find it refreshing to have a natural stopping point that doesn't cause FOMO.

I mean I don't know how many times you need to be told at this point that unless you were a Cutting Edge mythic raider the game never forced you to grind your brains out to clear content.

Utter bullshit. If player power exists in the game, players will pursue it, grind for it, and then complain that it's a horrible system. And yes, it's true that the game never "forces" you to do anything but if you want to do any group activity you need to "do the grind".

Nobody is going to take a random player with little to zero M+ score (especially after the season has already been started for 2+ months). Similarly, what group leader is going to take a barely 380 ilv toon over say ilv 400+ geared toons at this point?

You even have players who don't do high level M+ or mythic raiding saying that their "player power progression" is stuck at around 390 ish because there are no more systems they can solo grind and it's not like the content they are doing requires that kind of gear in the first place.

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. They kinda abandoned SL too, and BfA before that. You'd think DF would have been filled to the brim with features. It's embarrassing to make excuses for why expansions are bad and barren. This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it.

You're also forgetting that between EN and Nighthold they released a Mega dungeon and a mini-raid. In DF they released.. a new haircut for your Orc.

Did Legion, BFA, or SL (or if you want to compare WotLK, Cata, MoP, BC or even Vanilla) ever have an actual roadmap like the one Blizzard showed? Here's the image again.



We literally know more about what's coming in DF than any other expansion to date in WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

That is practically my problem with DF.

With Blizzard's resources, they absolutely could do more.

But it's not just "Blizzard's" resources - It's also Activision's and it's not like WoW is the only project that Blizzard is working on. You've got D4 around the corner, whatever the teams are dong for Overwatch and Hearthstone.

And the idea that you can just sink more developer resources into a project to speed it up looks good on paper but rarely works out that way in corporate world. You bring in more programmers, artists, designers, and you'll also need to bring in more managers to coordinate all the different moving parts. Add in more Quality Assurance and testing to make sure that the thing one group is working on doesn't break something else that another group has already finished.

Moreover, what used to take a simple approval process might now involve multiple departments which overall slows down overall process.

[Glorious Leader]

Not everyone shared that opinion so then the bigger issue is then how would Blizzard even attempt to satisfy all sides?

Thats easy. Be as reward agnostic as possible and any all complaints about forced or mandatory content can and should be ignored. People are literally asking to play their game less. Why would you ever respond to this?-

[JustaRandomReindeer]

Not everyone shared that opinion so then the bigger issue is then how would Blizzard even attempt to satisfy all sides? The answer is they can't. Some players will feel bored while others find it refreshing to have a natural stopping point that doesn't cause FOMO.

Why would they have to satisfy all sides? There's nothing in this world that is universally liked. Was Legion the best modern expansion? Did it revitalize a dying game? These are the things you need to care about. It's the only modern expansion that they have called a success and it certainly felt that way.

Utter bullshit. If player power exists in the game, players will pursue it, grind for it, and then complain that it's a horrible system. And yes, it's true that the game never "forces" you to do anything but if you want to do any group activity you need to "do the grind".

Nobody is going to take a random player with little to zero M+ score (especially after the season has already been started for 2+ months). Similarly, what group leader is going to take a barely 380 ilv toon over say ilv 400+ geared toons at this point?

You even have players who don't do high level M+ or mythic raiding saying that their "player power progression" is stuck at around 390 ish because there are no more systems they can solo grind and it's not like the content they are doing requires that kind of gear in the first place.

Let me put it this way - nobody cares if people needlessly forced themselves to grind when they didn't have to. Why was ilvl and M+ score an issue in Legion but not in DF? You think anyone is gonna take you in their +15 m+ run if you don't have a decent score? You think anyone is gonna take you to Mythic Vault if you are not an appropriate ivl? How many times have people checked your artifact level before they took you to a raid in Legion? I literally just told you that I managed to clear all Legion raids on heroic while only having a few hours a day to play the game.

At this point you guys are parroting some complete bullshit and trying to gaslight people. Grinds have never mattered outside of World First and Cutting Edge mythic raiding. I played Legion - I know.

But it's not just "Blizzard's" resources - It's also Activision's and it's not like WoW is the only project that Blizzard is working on. You've got D4 around the corner, whatever the teams are dong for Overwatch and Hearthstone.

Stop making excuses. It's embarrassing. You know damn well they have the resources to release good products.

[Malkiah]

Not everyone shared that opinion so then the bigger issue is then how would Blizzard even attempt to satisfy all sides? The answer is they can't. Some players will feel bored while others find it refreshing to have a natural stopping point that doesn't cause FOMO.

true they can't satisfy all sides, but one side exists because they like the product and want to play it, and the other side exists because they are (apparently by their own anecdotes) mentally incapable of not going out of their way to force themselves to hate the game they're playing.

which, to me at least, means that in terms of game design one side has a valid point about what should be in the game world, and the other side should seek professional help.

And yes, it's true that the game never "forces" you to do anything but if you want to do any group activity you need to "do the grind".

except that it literally doesn't.
i know you've already gotten several replies on this that say the same thing but i can't just let this go.
i played legion every. single. day. that the expansion was out. i ran 15s in M+ and i raided heroic and dabbled a bit in mythic.
i never once ran maw of souls except as part of my weekly M+ rotation, i never utilized some quasi-exploit to boost my AP totals. i never even went out of my way to do AP world quests.
ditto BFA. ditto shadowlands.

YOU forced you to grind. YOU excluded yourself from group activities unless you spent some proportion of your play time grinding.
YOU were not in a world or server first guild. YOU are not basically paid to maximize your character to the utmost conceivable level.
YOU, and every single poster in MMO-champion including myself, are a middle-tier (at best) shlub of a player whose stats really don't mean jack shit excepting obvious and notable plateaus of significant upgrade.

Nobody is going to take a random player with little to zero M+ score (especially after the season has already been started for 2+ months). Similarly, what group leader is going to take a barely 380 ilv toon over say ilv 400+ geared toons at this point?

i can pretty much absolutely promise you that at no point in legion or BFA did anyone you EVER grouped with bother to pull up your armory profile and look at your equipment and then kick you out of the group because your concordance of the legionfall was only at level 59 instead of 63.

i know it's hyperbolic but i'm willing to lay cash money - fiat fucking currency - on an absolute statistical surety that nobody, EVER, had that happen to them.
not even once.

[FelPlague]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. They kinda abandoned SL too, and BfA before that. You'd think DF would have been filled to the brim with features. It's embarrassing to make excuses for why expansions are bad and barren. This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it.

You're also forgetting that between EN and Nighthold they released a Mega dungeon and a mini-raid. In DF they released.. a new haircut for your Orc.

How the hell did they abandon BFA?
it had 2 whole post launch expansion zones, which is more then most expansions.
it had 3 raid tiers, and a total of 4 raids
while also introducing more new races then all past expansions combined.
BFA was shit for many reasons, "Being abandonded" was not one of them.

In Dragonflight they released a few new types of world content, a new zone, new types of races, the trading post, white/grey item transmogs.
also I love the line "This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it. "

This is literally the "They are scientists, if they wanted to invent time travel, they have the resources to do it"
That is not how production works, you can't "Just make it"

We are getting a brand new zone next patch, something even legion did not do.

- - - Updated - - -

i can pretty much absolutely promise you that at no point in legion or BFA did anyone you EVER grouped with bother to pull up your armory profile and look at your equipment and then kick you out of the group because your concordance of the legionfall was only at level 59 instead of 63.

I can confirm this was done A LOT as there was literal fucking addons for this, exorsus raid tools being the best, to let you sort by level, and see if people had their weapons maxxed out, or if they even had their azerite gear high enough level to use all the traits, and the second you ready-checked, if anyone was below your set parameters it messaged you.

Not high enough azerite to have all your shoulders traits? WARNING X IS TOO LOW AZERITE
less then level 60 azerite? WARNING X IS TOO LOW AZERITE
Missing a legendary? WARNING NO LEGENDARY
artifact weapon not fully maxxed out? WARNING MINIMAL ARTIFACT
concordance level below your threshhold? WARNING LOW ARTIFACT LEVEL.

and i remember it well cause i had exorsus after hearing about their addon after they won world first in emerald nightmare, and i remember it proccing ALLLLL the time, and then seeing them getting kicked if it was bad enough.
like the addon is extremly good, you can just open it and it shows your entire raids items all lined up, and highlights any with missing gems or enchants, highlights any with weak versions of gems or enchants. shows if they are missing food or potion or flask buff and even links them in chat.

[Lolites]

You're also forgetting that between EN and Nighthold they released a Mega dungeon and a mini-raid. In DF they released.. a new haircut for your Orc.

ehm... megadungeon (kara) was done in 7.1, miniraid (trial of valor) too, and although nighthold technicaly was added in 7.1 it was not opened until 7.1.5, 3 months after 7.1 was released...
dragonflight is currently in 10.0.5, so comparing it to other expansion at patch x.1.5 is incredibly stupid... i know you dont want fair comparison, you only want to shit on game, but still, have some standards at least...

not to mention legion came after WOD, which had one, ill repeat it, ONE major content patch (bcs selfie camera patch added literaly no new content, just tweaks and shit)...
SL had definitely less content than average wow expansion but still A LOT more than WOD, basicaly at 9.1 SL already had more content added than WoD had at its end, and SL still got one more major content patch...

[Soon-TM]

ehm... megadungeon (kara) was done in 7.1, miniraid (trial of valor) too, and although nighthold technicaly was added in 7.1 it was not opened until 7.1.5, 3 months after 7.1 was released...
dragonflight is currently in 10.0.5, so comparing it to other expansion at patch x.1.5 is incredibly stupid... i know you dont want fair comparison, you only want to shit on game, but still, have some standards at least...

Kara 2.0 came after EN and before NH, so yes, it did come between those, ditto for ToV. It doesn't really matter if it came in the x.0 or the x.1 patch, especially since we know for certain that 10.1 will feature neither a mega dungeon (which is theoretically coming in 10.1.5, that is several months later than its Legion counterpart) nor a miniraid.

I know you don't like fair comparisons, you only want to shill for the devs, but at least you can do better without resorting to stupid sophisms.

[Glorious Leader]

I can confirm this was done A LOT .

You actually can't even within the narrow bubble of people you played with which is itself just a fraction of the player base. To suggest this was done "alot" is myopic at best and honestly even if it was true its still ultimately a player problem not design. Certainly not one that the developers needed to orbit the rest of the game around. Like let's say it is true. how much more fucking privileged can you be? a tiny butt hurt fraction of the community feels shitty because literally everybody else has nice things so we better cater to them pronto..

[VMSmith]

Utter bullshit. If player power exists in the game, players will pursue it, grind for it, and then complain that it's a horrible system. And yes, it's true that the game never "forces" you to do anything but if you want to do any group activity you need to "do the grind".

And yet people state repeatedly that despite raids and M+ having player power they just don't find that content interesting and just don't do it. And they can do Heroic dungeons and LFR just fine, so they're doing group activities. They've made a choice and live by it, only asking that their preferred content be given some attention and possibly a form of power progression that keeps them playing.

The thing is that M+ and higher raids are designed with player-made gatekeeping in mind, so you see these degenerate demands that people who want to play that content can't keep themselves from doing. Well, that's a choice as well. If you want to do that content, you must suck it up and pay the piper. But no, what people who don't like being "forced" decide they want is to remove content and rewards from the aforementioned people who don't enjoy that player-controlled content in order to save themselves from themselves.

Many people are fully capable of saying "no" to doing things they don't like. You've chosen an activity where you have agreed that you don't get to make that choice if you want to partake of it. That's your problem and it's incredibly arrogant to think others should suffer for your self-imposed issues.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

ehm... megadungeon (kara) was done in 7.1, miniraid (trial of valor) too, and although nighthold technicaly was added in 7.1 it was not opened until 7.1.5, 3 months after 7.1 was released...
dragonflight is currently in 10.0.5, so comparing it to other expansion at patch x.1.5 is incredibly stupid... i know you dont want fair comparison, you only want to shit on game, but still, have some standards at least...

not to mention legion came after WOD, which had one, ill repeat it, ONE major content patch (bcs selfie camera patch added literaly no new content, just tweaks and shit)...
SL had definitely less content than average wow expansion but still A LOT more than WOD, basicaly at 9.1 SL already had more content added than WoD had at its end, and SL still got one more major content patch...

And when did 7.1 release, my dude? Less than 2 months after launch. When is 10.1 releasing? At least 7 months after launch. "You don't want fair comparison"... lmao.

How the hell did they abandon BFA?
it had 2 whole post launch expansion zones, which is more then most expansions.
it had 3 raid tiers, and a total of 4 raids
while also introducing more new races then all past expansions combined.
BFA was shit for many reasons, "Being abandonded" was not one of them.

It was certainly not abandoned, only more than half of the expansion features were released in a half-baked state and never fixed. And I am not making shit up here, Ion himself admitted that BfA was largely rushed and he regrets they did not spend more time testing stuff.

In Dragonflight they released a few new types of world content, a new zone, new types of races, the trading post, white/grey item transmogs. also I love the line "This is not some indie company. If they wanted to release a good expansion they have the resources to do it.

Oh my god, they released 1/4th the amount of content they released in Legion, must be because they spent so much time working on white/grey item transmogs! This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

This is literally the "They are scientists, if they wanted to invent time travel, they have the resources to do it"
That is not how production works, you can't "Just make it"

We are getting a brand new zone next patch, something even legion did not do.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that comparing something unachievable to something a big company refuses to do, even tho they have before and they have the resources to do again, is a gotcha moment. That's just embarrassing.

I can confirm this was done A LOT as there was literal fucking addons for this, exorsus raid tools being the best, to let you sort by level, and see if people had their weapons maxxed out, or if they even had their azerite gear high enough level to use all the traits, and the second you ready-checked, if anyone was below your set parameters it messaged you.

Not high enough azerite to have all your shoulders traits? WARNING X IS TOO LOW AZERITE
less then level 60 azerite? WARNING X IS TOO LOW AZERITE
Missing a legendary? WARNING NO LEGENDARY
artifact weapon not fully maxxed out? WARNING MINIMAL ARTIFACT
concordance level below your threshhold? WARNING LOW ARTIFACT LEVEL.

and i remember it well cause i had exorsus after hearing about their addon after they won world first in emerald nightmare, and i remember it proccing ALLLLL the time, and then seeing them getting kicked if it was bad enough.
like the addon is extremly good, you can just open it and it shows your entire raids items all lined up, and highlights any with missing gems or enchants, highlights any with weak versions of gems or enchants. shows if they are missing food or potion or flask buff and even links them in chat.

And I can confirm this is bullshit. You saw one group in group finder with 5 people in it where the group leader demands to see your Cutting Edge achievement for a normal clear and you are trying to gaslight people into believing everyone did it. It's a complete and total bullshit.

[Sialina]

Lets be honest here, nearly none of you liked grinding artifact power, you are 99% lying if you say you did.

Are you really going to try to convince people that you had a blast all expansion leveling your neck +1 level every 2 weeks by doing world quests?
resulting in an item level upgrade for your character every 10 weeks? Lets not be stupid here, noone will fall for that. I typically love grinding, and
I'm in the extreme minority that does, but that was boring as can be.

What I think would solve your woes is a system like badges or something, that you get from doing anything in game, including HC dungeon spam
but also raids/m+ that lets you buy like a 400 piece or so every 2 weeks. That would keep the people that want to progress their gear content for longer.

[Rageonit]

Stop making excuses. It's embarrassing. You know damn well they have the resources to release good products.

Yep. For whatever reason - trying to please the shareholders? - Blizzard rushed this expansion, and it is so painfully obvious. It simply needed more work and polish. Look at VOTI and compare it to any SL raid. Nathria, Sanctum and Sepulcher were visually stunning, unique places; VOTI is, visually, a damn Molten Core 2.0, a huge, boring cave with nothing to look at. It's just so bare bones. Things like the dragon event before the first fight... They introduce dragonriding to the game, and instead of utilising it in some form, what do they give us? Another on-rail boring even that involves spamming two button. I mean, what's the point...? Missed opportunities everywhere you look at.

[Melius]

Yep. For whatever reason - trying to please the shareholders? - Blizzard rushed this expansion, and it is so painfully obvious. It simply needed more work and polish. Look at VOTI and compare it to any SL raid. Nathria, Sanctum and Sepulcher were visually stunning, unique places; VOTI is, visually, a damn Molten Core 2.0, a huge, boring cave with nothing to look at. It's just so bare bones. Things like the dragon event before the first fight... They introduce dragonriding to the game, and instead of utilising it in some form, what do they give us? Another on-rail boring even that involves spamming two button. I mean, what's the point...? Missed opportunities everywhere you look at.

it all boils down to borrowed power, the issue is that some posters refuse to believe that not everyone hated those systems so now we basically get a wod 2.0 but the gimmick here is dragonriding instead of garrisons and a few world quests. i dont believe catering to the raidmob community was a good idea and i have a bad feeling about this expansions fate. but who knows maybe something spectacular might happen and i will be proven wrong.

[Usernameforforums]

What do I do now when I log into Dargonflight?

- First thing I do is check the map, with World Quest tracker, see if any upgrades out there? Or check where the weekly World Boss is.

- If no upgrades available, I then look at my M+ key, which yesterday was an 11 key, I then ask my Guild if they wanna run it? No response for awhile, then I put it up in the Group Finder, and that takes awhile to get a full group, sometimes don't get all 5 players, and just wait 20+ minutes.

- I don't Raid, so don't even go there.

- Lately I just log off then, if no group avaialble to run my M+ key with me, and no upgrades out there in the DragonIsles, I just don't play, because not much else to do. Yeah I do like running old content for transmogs and mounts, but that's mostly on weekends when I do that stuff. And I do have several alts to continue leveling up, but sometimes just not in the mood for that grind.

So you don’t actively play the game, no wonder why you’re bored. You’re not gonna get upgrades via wq. the average players for m+ runs 2-8 for valor and 16-18 for concentrated primal things(418 upgrades for crafted gear).

Learn how to play a game before you complain. There’s plenty to do, you’re just refusing to do it.

Don’t have time? I don’t wanna hear it. I work 50 hours a week and still able to game 40 hours a week.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

Lets be honest here, nearly none of you liked grinding artifact power, you are 99% lying if you say you did.

Are you really going to try to convince people that you had a blast all expansion leveling your neck +1 level every 2 weeks by doing world quests?
resulting in an item level upgrade for your character every 10 weeks? Lets not be stupid here, noone will fall for that. I typically love grinding, and
I'm in the extreme minority that does, but that was boring as can be.

What I think would solve your woes is a system like badges or something, that you get from doing anything in game, including HC dungeon spam
but also raids/m+ that lets you buy like a 400 piece or so every 2 weeks. That would keep the people that want to progress their gear content for longer.

The problem is that you think the opinion of the vocal minority on these forums is somehow the majority opinion. Plenty of people liked AP. Legion was their most successful recent expansion and it's not because of the succubi. Heck, based on achievement statistics and raid logs SL and BfA outperformed DF by a mile too. You can make up all the excuses you want for why that is. The truth is that the casual playerbase - those who played the game for fun and didn't care about m+ and raids only - are not going to come back for a barren WoD 2.0 expansion.

[Oneirophobia]

Objection, Hearsay

Your honour this panda is LEADING THE WITNESS

Edit: woops this thread is 30 pages away from this comment lmao

[Soon-TM]

The truth is that the casual playerbase - those who played the game for fun and didn't care about m+ and raids only - are not going to come back for a barren WoD 2.0 expansion.

At the end of the day, and despite all the differences between them, SL and DF suffer from the same major issue; namely, that players who don't participate in any of the "three pillars" simply cannot progress their toons any further after one or two months.

Which btw is ultimately why WoD tanked the way it did, all of the cut-off content was just icing on the cake. Sure, DF might fare a little better thanks to M+, which is the only content seeing increased participation. Will it be enough?

[Skylarking]

Lets be honest here, nearly none of you liked grinding artifact power, you are 99% lying if you say you did.

Are you really going to try to convince people that you had a blast all expansion leveling your neck +1 level every 2 weeks by doing world quests?
resulting in an item level upgrade for your character every 10 weeks? Lets not be stupid here, noone will fall for that. I typically love grinding, and
I'm in the extreme minority that does, but that was boring as can be.

Its all about the gameplay loop of the grind. This is why I wasn't strongly opposed to keeping borrowed power because it can absolutely be fun to play with if you get it right.

[infinitemeridian]

The problem lies in the simple fact that the game outside of m+, pvp, and raids is just not fun. When so many players are "relieved" they don't have to do anything but those things, what does that say about the game? Things like world quests, campaign quests, whatever flavor of the month zone invasion thing they're doing, etc. are just boring filler content that's braindead, tedious, and monotonous, REGARDLESS of whether there's player power tied to it or not. I'm sick to death of everything boiling down to just "kill x, collect y" fill the bar crap, and don't tell me Blizz can't go beyond this because they almost certainly can.

The only time the game has broken out of these trends, or at least tried to, is in actual systems - Torghast, Visions, Mage Tower, Islands, Warfronts. Most of these were duds yes, and some could have been better without power tied to them, but the idea behind them was based on the fact that the developers had an idea for a new type of content and made the attempt to make the content fun by itself regardless of the rewards. Can you say the same for world quests? For all the talk of Dragonflight improving wow's baseline activities (talents, professions, etc.), there's a whole host of things that remain untouched. Guild progression, world content, player expression and customization, etc. are all woefully lacking in such a way that it seems like 3 expansions isn't enough for Blizz to make these things interesting given their current output. Even things like m+ and raids are starting to show their age, at least in the fact that they seem largely on rails and developed by some sort of AI. M+ to this day remains one of the least developed systems the game has, despite having so much potential.

At the end of the day, the problem is that the devs just lack any creative backbone and the playerbase is too critical of experimentation (with good reason, but the game is built to weather these things so they need to do it anyways).