All Covenant+Class spells should be Talents.

[Amnaught]

It's weird that SOME covenant-themed spells are on talents, but not all. I was a Venthyr paladin, I've got the Darkfallen skin and maw armor, there's no need to bring Bastion magic into this.

Throw in Artifact and Azerite spells too. It would honestly be a great way to bring back old borrowed power spells, just giving us a choice of like a dozen different axed abilities all on one level-50 node.

[huth]

No, it isn't. There's only so many abilities that can sensibly fit in the trees, and many of the older classes had far more than that over the years. Choice nodes still have to be sensible choices as well, and many of these aren't remotely similar to one another.

You're just salty your personal favourite isn't in.

[Unlimited Power]

I liked the mechanics of Chain Harvest on my shaman, and especially the hybrid build that was possible for enhancement, albeit at the cost of great single target DPS, was interesting at the end of SL.

Still, I get why the spell wasn't brought forward. Necrotic Wave ultimately brought more interesting changes to the general gameplay of enhancement without relying on multiple legendary effects to do so.

Enhancement is in a pretty good place and sometimes good game design is trimming unnecessary "fat".

Warlocks, for instance, had some pretty uninteresting covenant abilities and I'm glad those weren't brought forward to the reworked talent trees (at least I think they weren't. They aren't on Demonology as far as I can tell).

[Gestopft]

I was a Venthyr paladin
Throw in Artifact and Azerite spells too.

1) I'm glad Paladin balance isn't tied to Ashen Hallow any more, though. While most Covenant abilities I think could potentially have a place, that ability, in particular, was far too gameplay defining to bring forward imo.
2) Azerite spells aren't really tied to classes, so it might be cool, but also weird?

Warlocks, for instance, had some pretty uninteresting covenant abilities and I'm glad those weren't brought forward to the reworked talent trees (at least I think they weren't. They aren't on Demonology as far as I can tell).

Affliction has Night Fae's Soul Rot, which actually has some synergies with the spec.

[Alroxas]

It's weird that SOME covenant-themed spells are on talents, but not all. I was a Venthyr paladin, I've got the Darkfallen skin and maw armor, there's no need to bring Bastion magic into this.

Throw in Artifact and Azerite spells too. It would honestly be a great way to bring back old borrowed power spells, just giving us a choice of like a dozen different axed abilities all on one level-50 node.

2 words: Button Bloat.

In fact, we kinda see this already with some specs using multiple covenant powers. Convoke AND Adaptive Swarm both used.

[Nightshade711]

My only disappointment is that the Idol of C’thun’s ability for shadow priests stillisn’t the way it was in Legion as an artifact trait.

In Legion it felt like you always had 2-3 tentacles up if you’re doing your normal rotation.
Now it feels like they rarely pop.

[Loveliest]

It's weird that SOME covenant-themed spells are on talents, but not all. I was a Venthyr paladin, I've got the Darkfallen skin and maw armor, there's no need to bring Bastion magic into this.

Throw in Artifact and Azerite spells too. It would honestly be a great way to bring back old borrowed power spells, just giving us a choice of like a dozen different axed abilities all on one level-50 node.

They kept the ones we would have really missed, that filled in the holes in the spec, I think. I played pala too, protection.
Night Fae one I would never miss.
Necrolord hammer was kinda fun, beacause it added two more ranged hits. But this was fun only in quest/ farming content mostly, can't really say it did much for me in M+.
Venthyr one was indeed fun. Fun in pvp, fun in outdoor content, fun in raids but the CD way too long to feel good. In M+ I didn't feel it was worth that much unless I could make some massive pulls every 5 mins.
Kyrian one - does a lot of damage, a lot of snap aggro, aoe interrupt, absorb and all on a short CD. I would have REALLY missed it. Everything else I don't care if I have or not, this - genuinely would have felt much worse without it.

What I have noticed, for prot pala at least, they always kept the good stuff. The kept the 2 more hits in shield from legendary pants, my favourite one. They kept the absorb on avenger shield from Azerite stuff, the strongest one in defensive. They kept the Kyrian toll, best one. I'm quite happy on this front.

[Schizoide]

They could all be added as talents with A/B choices, to avoid button bloat, sure.

Similarly all the talents formerly given baseline should be taken out. It's ridiculous that you can spec a hunter without multishot or an interrupt, for example. Every spec has examples of this, like you can spec a DH without either extra fury on demon's bite or demon's blades, completely gimping your character. The ability to completely gimp yourself in any way is quite simply poor game design.

[gd8]

I don't want any of them their spell effects don't match the majority of classes/specs

[Kithelle]

Yeah...feels really odd that some classes get things for free and others you literally have none of it without having to spend points

I don't understand why they couldn't like give each class tree a deep node where you could pick one of the four if you really wanted to, seems such a shame to spend so much time on them and most of them are just forgotten now

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They should have just added in a four choice node and let you pick one of them as well as updating the spell effects as like all of them are way out of place with the classes.

[Unlimited Power]

I don't want any of them their spell effects don't match the majority of classes/specs

This is also an issue I had with covenant abilities. Especially with some of the abilities that have now become more or less permanent additions to a class.

Good example being Necrotic Wave for shamans. It's way off any kind of spells you'd normally see a shaman wield.

Arguably the same applies to adaptive swarm for druids too.

Hunters at least had the spell animation for Chakram reworked to better fit their class. Not sure why the difference in treatment for these kinds of spells.

[Alroxas]

Yeah...feels really odd that some classes get things for free and others you literally have none of it without having to spend points

I don't understand why they couldn't like give each class tree a deep node where you could pick one of the four if you really wanted to, seems such a shame to spend so much time on them and most of them are just forgotten now

Imagine playing a balance druid. Current builds don't use ANY of the capstone talents (the talents at the very bottom of the tree, spec side).

[Schizoide]

Really? Yeah, that is a poorly designed talent tree too. Hopefully that'll be fixed in 10.0.7.

[Amnaught]

No, it isn't. There's only so many abilities that can sensibly fit in the trees, and many of the older classes had far more than that over the years. Choice nodes still have to be sensible choices as well, and many of these aren't remotely similar to one another.

You're just salty your personal favourite isn't in.

There is literally no amount of spells that would be unsensible to put into the trees in my opinion. Just slap the other three Covenant/Class spells into the same single node for every class, as a choice, doesnt take more space on the tree.

I'm definitely salty that my favorite isnt in, yeah, but like, these spells specifically were built to be comparable so no covenant would be the obvious choice in every situation.

- - - Updated - - -

2 words: Button Bloat.

In fact, we kinda see this already with some specs using multiple covenant powers. Convoke AND Adaptive Swarm both used.

Two words: Choice nodes.

Nobody complains about the button bloat from PVP Talents, because you only get three, even though there are a ton of them. Obviously getting all covenant abilities on your bar at once would be overwhemling. But picking one? Really, that's too much? You already get a new button for Divine Toll, justt let us pick a different button.

- - - Updated - - -

They could all be added as talents with A/B choices, to avoid button bloat, sure.

Similarly all the talents formerly given baseline should be taken out. It's ridiculous that you can spec a hunter without multishot or an interrupt, for example. Every spec has examples of this, like you can spec a DH without either extra fury on demon's bite or demon's blades, completely gimping your character. The ability to completely gimp yourself in any way is quite simply poor game design.

Hot take: You should be able to earn every node in the tree, and every node should be a choice node. So there's no possibility of gimping your character, but still customization in what abilities you get. Like you always get an interrupt, but the choice could be like, is it a ranged ability, or melee with a slightly shorter cooldown? Choose Multishot, or a passive that makes some spells have a chance to ricochet to nearby targets. Etc.

[huth]

There is literally no amount of spells that would be unsensible to put into the trees in my opinion. Just slap the other three Covenant/Class spells into the same single node for every class, as a choice, doesnt take more space on the tree.

That you can think of a way to fit them into the UI does not make it any less of a bad idea to do it.

You clearly haven't given any thought whatsoever to the actual implications of your "ideas".

[loras]

It's weird that SOME covenant-themed spells are on talents, but not all. I was a Venthyr paladin, I've got the Darkfallen skin and maw armor, there's no need to bring Bastion magic into this.

Throw in Artifact and Azerite spells too. It would honestly be a great way to bring back old borrowed power spells, just giving us a choice of like a dozen different axed abilities all on one level-50 node.

Betwern choice nodes, "Changes ability X" and "Replaces ability X" i think a lot more could have been fit in yeah, but honestly it has more prio to make all that we currently have actually useful, rather than balancing a class around a single gimpy build while keeping other options essentially underpowered.

[Alroxas]

Two words: Choice nodes.

Nobody complains about the button bloat from PVP Talents, because you only get three, even though there are a ton of them. Obviously getting all covenant abilities on your bar at once would be overwhemling. But picking one? Really, that's too much? You already get a new button for Divine Toll, justt let us pick a different button.

Go back and look at the resto druid tree specifically - In one of the more popular builds, you pick up BOTH convoke and adaptive swarm.

Even with the choice nodes we have right now, it's a choice between 2 options in a node so with 4 covenant abilities it would still be at the minimum 2 nodes to give you 2 (out of the 4) abilities. At worse, it's all 4 abilities somewhere in the tree.

But it doesn't end there either because as we've seen so far on the current talent trees, usually there's 1 more talent option following the covenant ability that empowers it. In the example of Convoke, it shortens the CD and duration as an optional (but is it really optional?) talent.

[MrLachyG]

I'm hoping that they're keeping them in reserve for the increase in levels over the next few expansions. so we can avoid hitting level 80 and then getting no new abilities at all outside of talents (which was a grand total of 2 at the time) then 1 when you started Legion content and got your artifact weapon.