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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Ok then to perform well (aka within the 75% percentile) for that specific class/spec during that time frame, the PvP trinket was BiS and well sought after even by players who despised PvP.
    ok now that is a characterization i'll accept.

    This goes beyond "feel"craft to actual data that yes using XYZ is actually measurably better provided A) you can get the item and B) you can use it effectively.
    oh i never suggested the essence wasn't the BIS for many dps classes or meant to imply that it was "feelcraft" to say it was the best and absolutely a DPS increase.
    but you didn't say any of that - you said it was mandatory to be "competitive"

    now obviously this involves some supposition on my part and reading into intent and that's dangerous and unreliable, but given the context of the discussion for the last several pages of this thread i don't feel i'm going completely out on a limb here to assume that you're more or less using "competitive" interchangeably with "viable".
    as in: you're suggesting that to be a legitimate player during BFA you had to have the PVP trinket or else you were physically incapable of putting up numbers adequate to... well i don't want to put words in your mouth here. push a key? be the top parser? get invited to a group for M+ or a raid?

    there's a lot of unspoken implication and i'm trying to avoid straw-manning you here.

    And you've highlighted the exact point - You enjoy playing WoW on your terms without having to deal with the stuff you don't want to do (aka PvP). Now imagine for instance, if in order to play WoW and do the things you want to do in WoW, you HAVE TO spend a MINIMUM of 2 hrs per day doing PvP before you can do the stuff you want to do.
    well then i just wouldn't play wow, because wow would be a game that was centered around activities i don't enjoy.
    and then, most notably, i wouldn't spend the next 10 years racking up 10,000+ posts on MMO-C prolapsing my vagina with how hard i was crying about how much i hate WoW.

    hate world quests so much that it makes you hate the game to do world quests, and then feel like it's mandatory to do world quests? cool, stop playing wow.
    simple problem, simple solution.
    i never played DAOC because it was a PVP oriented MMO. i didn't play DAOC and then bitch nonstop about how much PVP was in DAOC.

    WoW is, always has been, and i'd guess always will be, a casual-attitude MMO that is designed from the ground up to be easy and quick to get into and get going on and full of simple little tasks you can accomplish in a short amount of time.
    this has been true since the day they wrote the first line of code of WoW game engine, this became enshrined indelibly in the core foundational design philosophy of the game when they decided to make WoW be the lincoln logs version of everquest.

    casual, easy, pop in and get some shit done with nearly any amount of time. that's the foundation on which WoW is built.
    then over the years they built up on "some shit" you can get done in nearly any amount of time.

    this isn't a completely pointless digression (at least i don't think so) - this speaks to the heart of what's at issue here with this specific point.
    WoW is fundamentally a game where you can log in and do "stuff". it's also a game that has dungeons and raids. but the vast majority of development time and space goes to the "stuff" and the vast majority of people who play the game spend most of their time playing doing "stuff".
    if you just hate doing "stuff" at its core, then WoW isn't a game you should be playing.

    That's the issue that Legion, BFA, and SL had. There was all this crap that some players HAD to do before they got to the stuff they WANTED to do.
    and this comes back to what i said above.
    what is WoW? as a game, what is it? what is its game play loop? what are the core fundamentals of the way in which a player engages with the game world?

    IMO it's both dungeons/raids and a fairly robust task-oriented open world.
    IMO both are vital to the overall structure of the game, and perhaps most importantly IMO it's fine for both types of content to provide tangible rewards to character progression long term over the life of an expansion.
    IMO absolutely knee-capping what's possible or available in one for the sake of making it so that 3% of your player base feels better about their feesfees opting out of the other is incredibly stupid, and expecting the game to be designed that way so that you don't have to actually play the game is also stupid.

    look at this another way: several years ago a vast majority of WoW's players didn't raid because they didn't want to raid or have anything to do with raiding.
    but, WoW rather stupidly has no post-level-cap system for character progression that isn't just increasing ilevel, and so WoW had NOTHING to do to advance your character once you reached the level cap if you're not interested in raiding.
    this meant that the vast majority of WoW's players had nothing to do.

    so what did they do? did they just remove raiding from the game so that people who didn't want to raid could feel better about not raiding?
    no... that would be utterly fucking stupid.
    what they did was introduce LFR to give access to a tier of content to people who didn't do that content because of the social obligations required to do it. they expanded access to the content to people who otherwise wouldn't do it, and LFR is so far and away the most played version of raiding that normal/heroic/mythic put together aren't even a significant fraction of the number of people that do LFR.

    and yet in the same overall scenario where a tiny, tiny minority of players shit themselves hoarse over the fact that they hallucinated an imaginary requirement to play certain parts of the game in an unfun way, they just... removed all the content that wasn't raiding so that 3% of their player base could feel better about their desire to not actually play the game.

    seems pretty fuckin' stupid to me.

    For some Legion players, it was doing the daily chores of WQ to finish off emissaries on the hopes that they might get a Legion Legendary they wanted and not the crap Legion legendary that they got already. Or in BFA, it was doing those island expeditions to get the efficient AP farm done for the week even if you HATED island expeditions.

    Finally in DF, you don't need to do those things. If you don't like community feast, you don't have to do it. The often sought after loot drop from the feast (aka Alchemical Flavor Pocket) is sold on the AH. You don't have to do Aiding the Accord if it doesn't reward you with things you want.

    You want player power, go do raids or M+ or rated PvP. Also there's grinding out the reputations for the primal infusion reward at 25 or 30 renown (depends on faction).
    to me your argument sounds like "in legion and BFA there was purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG to play the game and i hated it because it made me feel like i had to play the game" and that "in DF there is absolutely no purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG game to actually play the game and it's better because it means i never have to play the game"

    i accept this is a position you and many others seem to have, i just don't get why you bother.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-27 at 10:16 PM.

  2. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Not even that, imo the real problem with Legion was how badly balanced were Legiondaries at the beginning. Getting e.g. pre-buff Prydaz was not only disappointing, but also annoying, since that meant you weren't going to get your +20% dmg bracers for quite a while. Especially since Blizzard lied through their teeth insisting that there was no soft (or rather hidden) cap on Legiondaries acquisition rates, until someone from Reddit proved them wrong with sheer empirical data and a bit of basic math.
    They had more or less fixed the balance issues and put the legiondaries behind a vendor by the end of the expansion. As literally everybody suggested to them for the entirety of the expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    ok now that is a characterization i'll accept.


    oh i never suggested the essence wasn't the BIS for many dps classes or meant to imply that it was "feelcraft" to say it was the best and absolutely a DPS increase.
    but you didn't say any of that - you said it was mandatory to be "competitive"

    now obviously this involves some supposition on my part and reading into intent and that's dangerous and unreliable, but given the context of the discussion for the last several pages of this thread i don't feel i'm going completely out on a limb here to assume that you're more or less using "competitive" interchangeably with "viable".
    as in: you're suggesting that to be a legitimate player during BFA you had to have the PVP trinket or else you were physically incapable of putting up numbers adequate to... well i don't want to put words in your mouth here. push a key? be the top parser? get invited to a group for M+ or a raid?

    there's a lot of unspoken implication and i'm trying to avoid straw-manning you here.


    well then i just wouldn't play wow, because wow would be a game that was centered around activities i don't enjoy.
    and then, most notably, i wouldn't spend the next 10 years racking up 10,000+ posts on MMO-C prolapsing my vagina with how hard i was crying about how much i hate WoW.

    hate world quests so much that it makes you hate the game to do world quests, and then feel like it's mandatory to do world quests? cool, stop playing wow.
    simple problem, simple solution.
    i never played DAOC because it was a PVP oriented MMO. i didn't play DAOC and then bitch nonstop about how much PVP was in DAOC.

    WoW is, always has been, and i'd guess always will be, a casual-attitude MMO that is designed from the ground up to be easy and quick to get into and get going on and full of simple little tasks you can accomplish in a short amount of time.
    this has been true since the day they wrote the first line of code of WoW game engine, this became enshrined indelibly in the core foundational design philosophy of the game when they decided to make WoW be the lincoln logs version of everquest.

    casual, easy, pop in and get some shit done with nearly any amount of time. that's the foundation on which WoW is built.
    then over the years they built up on "some shit" you can get done in nearly any amount of time.

    this isn't a completely pointless digression (at least i don't think so) - this speaks to the heart of what's at issue here with this specific point.
    WoW is fundamentally a game where you can log in and do "stuff". it's also a game that has dungeons and raids. but the vast majority of development time and space goes to the "stuff" and the vast majority of people who play the game spend most of their time playing doing "stuff".
    if you just hate doing "stuff" at its core, then WoW isn't a game you should be playing.


    and this comes back to what i said above.
    what is WoW? as a game, what is it? what is its game play loop? what are the core fundamentals of the way in which a player engages with the game world?

    IMO it's both dungeons/raids and a fairly robust task-oriented open world.
    IMO both are vital to the overall structure of the game, and perhaps most importantly IMO it's fine for both types of content to provide tangible rewards to character progression long term over the life of an expansion.
    IMO absolutely knee-capping what's possible or available in one for the sake of making it so that 3% of your player base feels better about their feesfees opting out of the other is incredibly stupid, and expecting the game to be designed that way so that you don't have to actually play the game is also stupid.


    to me your argument sounds like "in legion and BFA there was purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG to play the game and i hated it because it made me feel like i had to play the game" and that "in DF there is absolutely no purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG game to actually play the game and it's better because it means i never have to play the game"

    i accept this is a position you and many others seem to have, i just don't get why you bother.
    This is correct but it needs a bit of an addendum. Never have to play the game outside the narrowest sliver of content. In essence they want to be as isolated as possible. Instances of warcraft is more suitable. Even within that narrow narrow framework theirs division. So some raiders will complain that m+ is more necessary than ever and if we accept their view and wish to remain consistent its true. M+ is forced as well its far too lucrative to ignore. I for one would love to see this logic applied as broadly as possible. No vertical progression in any content. They'd all hate it but its the logical conclusion to the argument that any content which provides any meaningful verticality should be neutered. Nobody wants to feel forced right? well shit I feel forced to raid...

    It's also worth noting that this all wraps up in a nice little bow for the developers who literally have to do nothing to address the complaints about forced content (simple not making that content) which means not only do they not have to spend time or money or effort to develop that content but they can also turn around and say hey look feedback is positive. yea because the same vocal people who were complaining are now happy because you addressed their concerns... while everybody else left. Now those dudes who are happy with the current state of affairs have an out for this, they simple blame the previous expansion, because how could catering to the whims of sociopaths whos stated goal is to play the game as little as possible be unappealing for literally everybody else? They are so out of touch (along with the developers) that they cant even conceive that their desired end, a game as barren and empty of reward as possible outside a narrow sliver of content (vis a vi raid logging), has no appeal. It's that Seymour Skinner meme about the children being wrong.

    At this point all that's left to ask is why bother? If they don't care enough about the rest of the game to offer any meaningful reason to play that game why not just make raids? Leave all existing world content as is, make no more new zones, progress the story and campaign ENTIRELY in instanced content. Theirs no need for a world if you've decided to make it unappealing as possible, if you're going to provide as little possible reason to be in that world. Simple just make raids and dungeons. You'd get alot more raids and dungeons and the group of players the developers are seemingly want to cater to in this expansion would be thrilled i'm sure.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2023-02-27 at 10:41 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    How about crushing people on the meters, while having lower stats...? Ain't that even more worthy?
    Crushing who? Gear makes up nearly all of player power. Someone who 90% of my skill but with 110% of my gear will easily beat me. Besides that, I care about both the absolute best performers in my actual raid group while doing content AND overall percentiles on warcraft logs, and not just performance with a ton of asterisks next to it:

    99th PERCENTILE!***
    *at this ilvl
    *with this kill timer
    *at this level of AP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    to me your argument sounds like "in legion and BFA there was purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG to play the game and i hated it because it made me feel like i had to play the game" and that "in DF there is absolutely no purpose within the framework of a character-progression based RPG game to actually play the game and it's better because it means i never have to play the game"
    Facerolling your way through content you have graduated from isn't "playing the game."

    Something else you're not mentioning with your dumb RPG trope line of thinking: RPGs routinely invalidate their own content as you progress, making you do harder and harder things to keep getting the grind. And, IMO, the BEST ones also require you to up your skill (not just your stats) to overcome challenges.

    Or maybe you're someone who always power-farmed your way through content in final fanboi and was severely overleveled.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Facerolling your way through content you have graduated from isn't "playing the game."
    yes, actually, it is.
    it's not the way that many people choose to play it, but it IS the way many people choose to play it, and it's specifically built in such a way as to provide content that caters to both of those preferences.

    Something else you're not mentioning with your dumb RPG trope line of thinking: RPGs routinely invalidate their own content as you progress, making you do harder and harder things to keep getting the grind. And, IMO, the BEST ones also require you to up your skill (not just your stats) to overcome challenges.
    not to be overly hyperbolic but in what possible fantasy delusion could you ever possibly describe WoW as one of the "best" RPGs?
    it's a character-progression based RPG at its core, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good one nor does it mean that it has to be.
    i didn't mention it because doing so is utterly pointless.

    this isn't a From game, it's not even an arena shooter... fuck it's not even everquest, which is probably the most difficult and hardcore of the MMORPG games that exist.
    it's a casual-gamer MMORPG, that kind of paradigm simply doesn't apply to this game at that kind of level.

    that doesn't even get into the fact that the design niche you're talking about DOES exist in WoW, in mythic raiding (at the start of a tier at least) or the highest level M+ keys.
    that's one the nice things about WoW IMO, that it has vastly disparate difficulty levels that exist in sufficiently isolated environments that people can play and enjoy the game at any of them without lacking a significant amount of content.

    Or maybe you're someone who always power-farmed your way through content in final fanboi and was severely overleveled.
    or maybe you're some chad who should go play seikero and let the rest of us continue playing a game that has been a low difficulty task-oriented RPG for literally 19 years without having to listen to cry about how hard it isn't?
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-27 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    or maybe you're some chad who should go play seikero and let the rest of us continue playing a game that has been a low difficulty task-oriented RPG for literally 19 years without having to listen to cry about how hard it isn't?
    During the game's best years of it's life, it was raidlogging... so... If you're going to go on to the "but the game has always been this!" you don't get to conveniently ignore that aspect to make your case. I'm 100% fine with it going back to its roots

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    During the game's best years of it's life, it was raidlogging...
    and what exactly do you define as the game's "best years"? - though that's just idle curiosity, because no matter what your answer is, no it wasn't.

    i'll certainly agree that that your favorite period of the game's history was when you felt content isolating yourself to exclusively raidlogging, but holy shit that is a far cry whatever bullshit you're trying to peddle.

    so... If you're going to go on to the "but the game has always been this!" you don't get to conveniently ignore that aspect to make your case. I'm 100% fine with it going back to its roots
    ha! jfc that statement is so ignorant it's comical on a level that i doubt you have the capacity to even grasp.

    WoW's "roots" are "what if we ripped off everquest but it made it so it wasn't hard" - WoW core design philosophy from the very beginning was to be a dumbed down pansy version of a much more difficult game.
    then on top of that, they discovered by accident that they when they made it even *easier* than they had intended by basically making the entire game solo-friendly, that the casuals who aren't gamers got into it, and they learned even harder into that.

    you seem to be pining for either:
    A. a period in time that never actually existed that you're remembering with rose-tinted glasses and a total lack of perspective,
    or
    B. a niche within the game that you created for yourself from the get-go, a version of WoW that only exists in your head and that you're just butt hurt that it eventually got contradicted by the inescapable reality of what the game actually is.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    and what exactly do you define as the game's "best years"? - though that's just idle curiosity, because no matter what your answer is, no it wasn't.
    The absolute pinnacle of the game for me was WOTLK. The general design philosophy of the game remained the same between vanilla and WOTLK, though.

    WoW core design philosophy from the very beginning was to be a dumbed down pansy version of a much more difficult game.
    Why are you harping on difficulty so much? I haven't talked about difficulty in wow being a requirement nearly at all, just that you're idiotic for cherry picking your personal favorite parts of RPGs while ignoring other aspects of the trope. My point is: Stop trying to use tradition or historical precedent to make your point. Neither work for your line of thinking.


    B. a niche within the game that you created for yourself from the get-go, a version of WoW that only exists in your head and that you're just butt hurt that it eventually got contradicted by the inescapable reality of what the game actually is.
    Nope, pretty sure at some point in character progression you got to a hard cap at your potential and had to step into dungeons and raids at max level if you still wanted to progress because there was no solo end-game that got you power. Sorry that you're cherry picking your favorite part of the OG wow experience (leveling) and using that as the basis for what the game was supposed to be in perpetuity.

  8. #688
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    During the game's best years of it's life, it was raidlogging... so... If you're going to go on to the "but the game has always been this!" you don't get to conveniently ignore that aspect to make your case. I'm 100% fine with it going back to its roots
    it was also like 10x grindier so like stop complaining about grinds
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    it was also like 10x grindier so like stfu complaining about grind
    Nah, not at all. WOTLK was the pinnacle of raidlogging, and historically in the past once you got onto the raid train the grind essentially stopped. No one back in vanilla was ACTUALLY collecting tons of world buffs, using tons of consumables, etc. Raid prog nights were 30 shitheads who sucked and 10 people who knew what they were doing stumbling through easy mechanic encounters with nothing more than just their gear and their class consumable items (like whatever the fuck paladins had to have back in the day to cast our blessings... I can't even remember any more).

    Grinding to get to max level? Yeah, sure. One-time grind. Grinding to get on the raid train? Sure. You had to grind dungeons to get full dungeon blues, and it took a good chunk of runs to do that, and those runs took long times because players sucked. Again, one time thing. Grind once you were in raids clearing content? Hell. No.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2023-02-28 at 12:17 AM.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    The absolute pinnacle of the game for me was WOTLK. The general design philosophy of the game remained the same between vanilla and WOTLK, though.
    right ok, so it's A from the two options.

    Why are you harping on difficulty so much? I haven't talked about difficulty in wow being a requirement nearly at all, just that you're idiotic for cherry picking your personal favorite parts of RPGs while ignoring other aspects of the trope. My point is: Stop trying to use tradition or historical precedent to make your point. Neither work for your line of thinking.
    ... difficulty is literally the entire crux of everything you've said so far. it's the thing you've been bleating about in every post you've made in this thread.
    jesus fuck you literally one post ago said "facerolling isn't playing the game".

    difficulty is YOUR hangup, not mine.

    Nope, pretty sure at some point in character progression you got to a hard cap at your potential and had to step into dungeons and raids at max level if you still wanted to progress because there was no solo end-game that got you power. Sorry that you're cherry picking your favorite part of the OG wow experience (leveling) and using that as the basis for what the game was supposed to be in perpetuity.
    i am going to assume that you're completely ignorant of the fact that until cataclym came out over 60% of the people who played wow weren't yet max level.
    and of the 40% who were max level only about 17% (give or take) participated in raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Grind once you were in raids clearing content? Hell. No.
    what exactly is your definition of "grinding" here?
    i've already been over this with somebody else who immediately pussied out and stopped responding once i challenged them to actually describe what they meant rather than use the letters g-r-i-n-d as a cudgel to bludgeon people with, maybe you'll man up and actually give an answer.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    right ok, so it's A from the two options.
    Nah.

    difficulty is literally the entire crux of everything you've said so far. it's the thing you've been bleating about in every post you've made in this thread.
    jesus fuck you literally one post ago said "facerolling isn't playing the game".
    Sorry, when I said facerolling, I meant solo world content. Solo world content was never required once you got in raids, as it effectively provided no benefit. It was raid or die. nd yes, raiding was and is harder than facerolling solo content.

    i am going to assume that you're completely ignorant of the fact that until cataclym came out over 60% of the people who played wow weren't yet max level.
    and of the 40% who were max level only about 17% (give or take) participated in raiding.
    And that matters... why? So you want them to make leveling take longer again for what reason? I mean, sure, go for it but offer me level boosting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    what exactly is your definition of "grinding" here?
    i've already been over this with somebody else who immediately pussied out and stopped responding once i challenged them to actually describe what they meant rather than use the letters g-r-i-n-d as a cudgel to bludgeon people with, maybe you'll man up and actually give an answer.
    If you're looking for a unilateral definition for all wow, a grind to me is doing something outside of content you desire to do to get power for inside of content you want to do. For some people, that means they have to grind LFR to get their power increases for the overworld. But my point is that wow has always historically been "do group content or die" when it comes to pve progression.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Nah.
    yah.

    Sorry, when I said facerolling, I meant solo world content. Solo world content was never required once you got in raids, as it effectively provided no benefit. It was raid or die. nd yes, raiding was and is harder than facerolling solo content.
    ok well that still doesn't really make any sense in context, but i'm starting to get the impression that's kind of your vibe.

    And that matters... why? So you want them to make leveling take longer again for what reason? I mean, sure, go for it but offer me level boosting.
    it matters because the entire crux of your position is that you yearn for a time when you were a minority of a minority of the player base, and because there was nothing designed in the game for you to do other than raid you were happy because you enjoy raiding and there was nothing else to do.

    and that's all well and good, but you're further trying to say that raiding as the only way to progress your character post level cap should be the only way the game is designed, for the express purpose of making it so you don't have to deal with playing in any other kind of content except for raiding.
    which is also fine, except that you're *also* saying that you want to be able to maintain status as one of the "best" players in terms of stats and output, while also doing nothing but raiding, and thus nothing but raiding but should give any means of improving your stats and output.

    this is the logical end point of your argument as well as that of everyone who wants a "raidlogging" environment, and while i get your position in terms of having a preferred content type, i find your insistence that multiple interconnected systems should be limited just to justify your desire to be "the best" and also "not play most of the game" specious.

    IMO the best version of an MMORPG is one where there is a robust strata of means by which you can improve your character power, so i resist calls to have character progression be limited to any single avenue of content.
    if that means that you don't get to only raidlog and have the best stats, well... that gets to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    If you're looking for a unilateral definition for all wow, a grind to me is doing something outside of content you desire to do to get power for inside of content you want to do. For some people, that means they have to grind LFR to get their power increases for the overworld. But my point is that wow has always historically been "do group content or die" when it comes to pve progression.
    ok so "grinding" when you use the word means "doing literally anything that isn't raiding"
    i feel like that broadens the definition so widely that it becomes practically meaningless, but i won't turn this into a semantics quibble because that's a digression.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-28 at 01:21 AM.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    it matters because the entire crux of your position is that you yearn for a time when you were a minority of a minority of the player base
    How many people entertained the end-game isn't important. The fact that the game WAS designed that way is. Just because most people never got there doesn't change the way the game was designed.

    but you're further trying to say that raiding as the only way to progress your character post level cap should be the only way the game is designed, for the express purpose of making it so you don't have to deal with playing in any other kind of content except for raiding.
    Right, because that's the game I fell in love with. Imagine if LoL somehow introduced a permagrind mechanic that gave you power instead of hitting <whatever max account rank for rune unlocks is> after establishing a pattern of "this is what our game is at max level." No thanks. You don't change that type of major function of a game.

    this is the logical end point of your argument as well as that of everyone who wants a "raidlogging" environment, and while i get your position in terms of having a preferred content type, i find your insistence that multiple interconnected systems should be limited just to justify your desire to be "the best" and also "not play most of the game" specious.
    But I did play most of the game already. Why should I have to repeat it to stay on top? Also, stop having interconnected systems. Problem solved.

    IMO the best version of an MMORPG is one where there is a robust strata of means by which you can improve your character power, so i resist calls to have character progression be limited to any single avenue of content.
    if that means that you don't get to only raidlog and have the best stats, well... that gets to happen.
    If you get to tell me that I get fucked in your "favorite" version of the game, I get to tell you that in mine, and it just so happens my version is winning right now because it's how the game currently exists. Yay me, I finally don't have to put up with your camp's bullshit and it's fantastic. You have no better leg to stand on than I do. You're just cherry picking things like "hurr durr all RPGs do this!" "hurr durr my favorite time in wow did this!" and acting like that somehow adds weight to your side and desires. Nope.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    How many people entertained the end-game isn't important. The fact that the game WAS designed that way is. Just because most people never got there doesn't change the way the game was designed.
    it does matter though, because of the importance of the fact that the wasn't designed that way, it was lack of designed that way.
    "raid or do nothing" wasn't a choice the developers made, it was the dead-end that existed because they were too stupid and short sighted to have built something to exist in the first place, and because they were too busy being in a paranoid scramble to not be everquest.
    they got away with it for a couple of years because so few of the players got to that dead end that few knew it was there.

    if you'll notice, there's an almost exact correlation between when systems started being implemented that allowed for alternate means of character advancement and when a numerical majority of the players started being max level.

    the instant you people weren't a minority, systems were built to accommodate the vast, VAST majority of players that weren't you.
    your rosy little tea party lasted about 5 1/2 years. a game where there's stuff to do that isn't raid has been in place for 13 years.

    Right, because that's the game I fell in love with. Imagine if LoL somehow introduced a permagrind mechanic that gave you power instead of hitting <whatever max account rank for rune unlocks is> after establishing a pattern of "this is what our game is at max level." No thanks. You don't change that type of major function of a game.
    and we're back to... ah, the answer is option B.

    But I did play most of the game already. Why should I have to repeat it to stay on top?
    because insisting that the entirety of an online game world should functionally not exist so that you can play exclusively in two raid instances is hilariously stupid.

    Also, stop having interconnected systems. Problem solved.
    or, keep having them, and you don't get to have your favorite version of the game. problem also solved.

    If you get to tell me that I get fucked in your "favorite" version of the game, I get to tell you that in mine, and it just so happens my version is winning right now because it's how the game currently exists. Yay me, I finally don't have to put up with your camp's bullshit and it's fantastic. You have no better leg to stand on than I do. You're just cherry picking things like "hurr durr all RPGs do this!" "hurr durr my favorite time in wow did this!" and acting like that somehow adds weight to your side and desires. Nope.
    you seem to think this is an own, but i've already said multiple times that i'm glad that people with your perspective are getting the game world that they want.
    unlike you, i'm not so pissy and fanatical and egomaniacal that i only play one aspect of the game and then expect everyone else to suck my ballsack and demand that the game's design cater exclusively to my personal favorite way.

    unlike you (apparently), i actually like WoW and i enjoy playing it and just find it unfortunate that it's a lesser game when designed to your specifications.

    one final thing... based on everything you've posted so far, why the hell are you even playing retail?
    shouldn't you be on the WOTLK classic servers having your prostate engorged with the glory days of WoW?
    what in the shit are you even doing fucking up the game for everyone else when your chud party exists in an official format?
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-28 at 02:55 AM.

  15. #695
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Class halls+wep skins did not.
    Class halls were ok, but they were facebook game
    and the wep skins were cool but lame at the same time, as they replaced all normal weapon drops, so you only got 6 new weapon appearences over the entire expansion per spec, FAR less then any expac.
    of course overall more, but so limited to spec and class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    it does though, because of the importance of the fact that the wasn't designed that way, it was lack of designed that way.
    You have absolutely no way of knowing the level of intentionality behind the design choices they made. You're just assuming it was a lack of design that led that because you believe it to be inferior.

    [quote]because insisting that the entirety of an online game world should functionally not exist so that you can play exclusively in two raid instances is hilariously stupid.
    It's not functionally non-existent. Just like every video game, you functionally grow out of it. Big difference. Just because a part of a game isn't omnipresent for all parts of the game's lifecycle doesn't mean something is wrong.

    i only play one aspect of the game and then expect everyone else to suck my ballsack and demand that the game's design cater exclusively to my personal favorite way.
    Except you DO because your "one way" just happens to "do everything". Just because you like more facets of content doesn't mean it isn't a singularly minded

    unlike you, i actually like WoW and i enjoy playing it and just find it unfortunate that it's a lesser game when designed to your specifications.
    I do like wow. Wow is the only game with good raiding and good 5 man dungeons.

    one final thing... based on everything you've posted so far, why the hell are you even playing retail?
    shouldn't you be on the WOTLK classic servers having your prostate engorged with the glory days of WoW?
    what in the shit are you even doing fucking up the game for everyone else when your chud party exists in an official format?
    I would have just stayed quit from wow, but because they did everything this way for DF I actually came back after having not played for all of SL and the last half of BfA. I'm back BECAUSE they catered to me. I had already written wow off as dead to me.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    You have absolutely no way of knowing the level of intentionality behind the design choices they made. You're just assuming it was a lack of design that led that because you believe it to be inferior.
    i have an imperfect way of knowing - dev interviews during WOTLK, people that i knew who were involved in the earlier stages of WoW's development, inference based on what's in the game and what i know of MMO development based on my own experience with it.
    can i link you chris metzen's diary where he says explicitly that the team was so focused on other areas of the game, and received so little feedback about end game play because so few people were there, that they were totally unprepared for the deluge that occurred at the tail end of WOTLK when most of their players were max level for the first time? no, i can't.

    so i assume you'll blow it off regardless.

    It's not functionally non-existent. Just like every video game, you functionally grow out of it. Big difference. Just because a part of a game isn't omnipresent for all parts of the game's lifecycle doesn't mean something is wrong.
    true, but unlike every video game MMOs are ever-present multiplayer worlds which comes with a different set of use-cases.
    you CAN make the majority of your world space limited use that players grow out of and never return to, but doing that is incredibly stupid.

    now that isn't to say that some of your game world isn't going to have that happen, that's obviously a natural part of any gaming environment.
    but if your options are:
    A. making everything that isn't raids useless the second to leave the area
    or
    B. make as much as possible reuseable so there is more access to viable content for a larger swath of people

    one of those choices is a good one. one of them is not.

    Except you DO because your "one way" just happens to "do everything". Just because you like more facets of content doesn't mean it isn't a singularly minded
    i'm sorry, did i make a thread demanding that all content be treated equally?
    have i said that world content should be equal to raid content, or that raid content doesn't exist?
    please find a single time that i've even suggested that the game "should" be a particular way, or said that any opinion on how the game "should" be other than my own is invalid.

    consistently across all my posts in this thread my only argument has been:
    A. the whole "legion and BFA had mandatory grinding" lie is a crock of shit.
    B. having less game to play instead of more game to play for the sake of a handful of people who clearly hate playing the game seems like a silly direction to take.

    I do like wow. Wow is the only game with good raiding and good 5 man dungeons.
    well that's... a take.
    i'd be fascinated to find out what you consider "good" in this instance.

    I would have just stayed quit from wow, but because they did everything this way for DF I actually came back after having not played for all of SL and the last half of BfA. I'm back BECAUSE they catered to me. I had already written wow off as dead to me.
    and i'm happy for you, because unlike you i'm OK with the game not being my favorite way all the time.
    i think it's a shame DF lacks playability in the way the last few expansions have, but i'm perfectly content getting what i can out of it, and i'm not pissed off at you or anyone else for wanting the game to be a different way or for the game catering to that.

    you won't find a single post of my saying DF sucks or is boring, or even agreeing with someone else who said it sucks or is boring, because i don't think DF sucks and i don't find DF boring.

    that's the difference between you and me. you demand "my way or the highway" and you denigrate anyone who dares enjoy the game differently from you and want to actively deny other people access to enjoyment.

    i'm just here cuz ya'll have the fuckin' stupidest most bullshit facetious arguments to try and justify your elitism, and calling you out on that mental pond slime entertains me for some reason, but i'm fine with the game either way.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-28 at 03:20 AM.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    so i assume you'll blow it off regardless.
    correct


    you CAN make the majority of your world space limited use that players grow out of and never return to, but doing that is incredibly stupid.
    *in YOUR opinion

    one of those choices is a good one. one of them is not.
    *in YOUR opinion

    i'd be fascinated to find out what you consider "good" in this instance.
    Hotkey DDR with a lot of mechanics and movement such that the game is hectic with performance discrepancies between players involved that are viewable and measurable real-time. Things like FF14 are alright, but wow's hotkey DDR is superior (and faster-paced).

    that's the difference between you and me. you demand "my way or the highway" and you denigrate anyone who dares enjoy the game differently from you and want to actively deny other people access to enjoyment.
    The only reason it's "my way or the highway" is because the THING I ENJOY necessarily doesn't jive with certain design decisions. If I cannot enjoy the game, I cannot play the game. Same goes for people who "want to be able to do everything and get player progression." They're no better, and their enjoyment hinges on me not being able to enjoy the game how I want to. It's the same thing, you just refuse to acknowledge it, because you find one audience more valuable than the other.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    *in YOUR opinion

    *in YOUR opinion
    an opinion predicated on practical real world cost/benefit, and not my feefees cuz i'm too much of a baby to accept a game that has some things about it that i like and some that i don't.

    The only reason it's "my way or the highway" is because the THING I ENJOY necessarily doesn't jive with certain design decisions. If I cannot enjoy the game, I cannot play the game.
    and yet, your attitude is still "my way or the highway" whereas mine is not, and yet you continue to think you're morally superior to me.

    your "reasons" for being a narcissistic jackass who predicates their own enjoyment on denying others their ability to do the same doesn't negate the fact that you're a narcissistic jackass who predicates their own enjoyment on denying others their ability to do the same.

    Same goes for people who "want to be able to do everything and get player progression." They're no better, and their enjoyment hinges on me not being able to enjoy the game how I want to. It's the same thing, you just refuse to acknowledge it, because you find one audience more valuable than the other.
    you say i refuse to acknowledge it because you wish that were so, because if i refused to acknowledge it that would be good for your attempt to score points in an argument.

    the problem is, i totally acknowledge it and have openly embraced not only that fact but also the fact that the current game paradigm has shifted in a way that you enjoy.
    i've said it like 20 times in this thread and at least 3 times now to you directly: i'm glad that the game is functioning in a way that you enjoy so you get to play it, because when it functions in a way you enjoy we BOTH enjoy the game, and us BOTH enjoying the game is better than only one of us enjoying the game.

    what you patently refuse to even recognize is the fact that i'm not saying the game shouldn't be the way you like it, i'm pointing out that your argument for why the game should be the way you like it is fucking stupid and predicated on some incredibly shitty and faulty logic.

    so, do try and get the fuck over yourself dude.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2023-02-28 at 04:03 AM.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    an opinion predicated on practical real world cost/benefit, and not my feefees cuz i'm too much of a baby to accept a game that has some things about it that i like and some that i don't.
    I'm fine accepting the game has some things about it that I don't like. I don't like having to gear AT ALL but accept that the game has gearing. Also, in your world of predicating things on real world cost/benefit, games like elden ring never get made because they could have just made a gacha game or crammed tons of other fomo/mtx into the game... and yet, they didn't and it's hugely successful. Did it make absolutely as much money as it could have? Nope, and that doesn't fucking matter. They made the game they wanted and proved a point. Wow can do the same.

    and yet, your attitude is still "my way or the highway" whereas mine is not, and yet you continue to think you're morally superior to me.
    Superior? No. Equal? Yes. You're the one with a superiority complex about what your position entails.

    your "reasons" for being a narcissistic jackass who predicates their own enjoyment
    Literally every competitive everything is predicated on this. By winning against like-minded individuals, you rob them of the victory they crave. Sorry that certain circumstances just have winners and losers, but it's no more narcisistic than people who want to log in every day, do dumb fucking baby gameplay, and get improvements on their character in perpetuity.


    some incredibly shitty and faulty logic.
    There isn't faulty logic at all. I only get enjoyment out of beating people on meters in group content. If people have the ability to spend more time on the game than me and get power for that time spent, my desire becomes harder to achieve.
    so, do try and get the fuck over yourself dude.
    No. Fuck off with your "holier than thou" attitude.

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