[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Surfd]

And before any babbling about her powers, she was dreamwalking, she was not as her full strenght

Which is basically probably exactly what they thought, based on their understanding of the limits of Dreamwalking. And their understanding was incomplete. Which is why they are dead.

[Syegfryed]

you're watching a FICTIONAL MOVIE ABOUT SUPERHEROES! what part of that do you not understand.

Nope, you do not understand that fictional stories can have a canon and an universe with a set of rules, that they need to follow to keep up with it. If a character is established to do X then he do X if he does Y out of nowhere, when it was already established he can't, it breaks immersion.

Just like thinking captain carter and captain marvel would stand baffled, without acting when wanda murder their friends, its dumb and its not about "muuu super heroes"

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Which is basically probably exactly what they thought, based on their understanding of the limits of Dreamwalking. And their understanding was incomplete. Which is why they are dead.

They are dead because the scrip told then to

same way the scrip told wanda to run limping, to get strange and america because she forgot she can fly. dumbass movie.

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Lol. I get it. You are somehow stuck on the idea that they didn't do the Illuminati "justice"

Because they didn't sorry.

and that this is somehow evidence of not being able to write superheroes

That and because they got the scrip done in one month, lmao.

or some other ridiculous personal opinion crap, and because you are so fixated on this, you are completely missing the forest for the trees: the Illuminati are not the focus here.

I don't care if they are not the focus, they are in the fucking movie, just because something is not the focus it does not mean it needs to get half-asset and bad just because they don't matter, thats a weak ass argument to defend shit in any movie.

If theya re not the focus WHY ARE THEY EVEN THERE looool, you can 100% cut then out and shit would be the same. NWH was able to pull out cameos and make then work and even gave then arcs, and they were not the focus.

[Surfd]

NWH was able to pull out cameos and make then work and even gave then arcs, and they were not the focus.

This is such a stupid comparison I can't even begin to imagine how you could manage to make it with a straight face......

All those character appearances in NWH weren't "cameos". Basically every character in that movie was there for a solid reason that directly revolved around a core element of the story: Having the 3 different movie versions of Spider-Man meet face to face. The 3 Spider-men and their associated rogues gallery of villains were main elements of the story, not cameos. Tom Hardy's venom was the only cameo appearance in NWH.......

Not even vaguely in the same universe, let alone the same ballpark as the relative Importance of the Illuminati to the story in MoM, which yes, they literally could have replaced with basically any Marvel Universe hero group they wanted if they so chose without affecting the story in the slightest.

[Ophenia]

Maybe, maybe not. We do know she exists in their universe (she's the body 616 Wanda is possessing), but pretty much everything we saw about her in their world seemed to indicate she was living a pretty normal domestic family life. When 616 Wanda took over 838 Wanda, there was basically no indication that 838 fought back or resisted like you would expect if she was a "powered" version of Wanda.

And even if we assume that the alternate Wanda she confronts at the end of the movie in the final scene (who we see with the the telltale red-hand-glow that indicates that at least that Wanda had powers) is the 838 Wanda (which we can't be sure of, but I am fairly certain is not), she still basically magically manhandles that other-Wanda like a kid tossing around dolls.

Well, Wanda is strong, but Scarlet Witch is another level. Also, even 616 Wanda was always depicted as okay-ishly powerful in the movies, until she's fuelled by rage/despair, which is when she starts getting insanely strong (Quicksilver's death, face-to-face with Thanos on Earth (twice), chronological beginning of Wandavision).
Nowhere does it feel that 838 Wanda had to face any of those situations. Thanos never reached Earth in 838.

So they expected to see Wanda (who until Wandavision was only throwing red energy and make stuff fly, so 838 Wanda was probably still there), but very likely they had absolutely no clue what Scarlet Witch was capable of.

----

By the way, about all that multiverse matter, do we know how the Celestials are positioned ? I mean, that's 1 year and a half since they've been canonically introduced into the MCU, yet they still don't seem to care about anything (nor do anyone else to be honest). Kang & MoM's incursions are universes-level threat, which is something you'd expect the creators of said universes to care a little bit about
Are they still cannon (MCU-wise), or did Eternals' relative failure just turned around the whole situation and we're supposed to forget this movie (and hence Celestials) even existed ?

All new MCU movies seem to ignore them and I'm starting to get frustrated tbh

[Surfd]

Thanos never reached Earth in 838.

Are we sure of that?

Without going back and re-watching all the 838 stuff in the movie, I don't think it's ever really mentioned exactly how much of an impact Thanos had on their universe. Just some mention that he was a threat, they went to war to fight him off, 838 Strange destroyed another universe while looking for a way to beat him by dreamwalking using the Darkhold, and that they finally defeated him with a collective effort using the Book of Vishanti. The scene of 838 Strange's execution that Prof X shows 616 Strange basically only shows a Dead Thanos and the currently known members of the Illuminati. We know very little (to the point of effectively nothing) about how the actual conflict went. How long did it last? What other heroes were involved. How close did he get to his goal? We have no idea.

It is kind of interesting to note that in that scene, Thanos' corpse is seen still wearing the infinity gauntlet with what appears to be at least 1, or maybe 2 infinity stones still in it (it's hard to tell in the clip I found on youtube), so it's not outside the realm of possibility that they managed to defeat him before he collected all, or even most, of the stones in their universe.

Another thing to consider now that it occurs to me, it could be argued that they effectively got the "easy win" in their universe if you stop and think about it: They explicitly stated that they used the Book of Vishanti to defeat Thanos. The in movie description of the Book of Vishanti basically makes it out to be a cheat object. The MCU equivalent of a Wish Spell. You find it, you ask it for the power to defeat an enemy or solve a problem, and it gives it to you. Effectively an "I Win Button". Which could be interpreted to mean that they didn't defeat Thanos on their own merits, but rather that they only defeated Thanos because they had the magic macguffin. Which could go a fair ways toward explaining why they get rolled so hard by Wanda: They beat the game on easy mode, and nightmare mode just walked in and turned the lights off.

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WBy the way, about all that multiverse matter, do we know how the Celestials are positioned ? I mean, that's 1 year and a half since they've been canonically introduced into the MCU, yet they still don't seem to care about anything (nor do anyone else to be honest). Kang & MoM's incursions are universes-level threat, which is something you'd expect the creators of said universes to care a little bit about
Are they still cannon (MCU-wise), or did Eternals' relative failure just turned around the whole situation and we're supposed to forget this movie (and hence Celestials) even existed ?

All new MCU movies seem to ignore them and I'm starting to get frustrated tbh

I really doubt they would introduce figures as important as the Celestials without having some form of long term goals / plans for them.

As for the "multiverse", the Celestials aren't really multiversal players. They typically operate on the "inside" the universe level, so every alternate verse would have it's copy of Arishem doing Arishem things, etc.

If I had to guess, they might set Galactus up as a Celestial, since going full bore into his comics lore origins would likely require too much infodumping for the average non comics fan to wrap their mind around.

Then again, who knows. Maybe they will go all the way down that rabbit hole. They have sort of skirted the edges of it with the introduction of Eternity as an actual entity in Love and Thunder.

I'm also pretty sure they made a one off reference to the giant celestial hand appearing in at least one subsequent movie and or TV series if I remember right (think I recall it being run on a news broadcast someone was watching, or something like that?)

[Syegfryed]

This is such a stupid comparison I can't even begin to imagine how you could manage to make it with a straight face......

they were cameos, literall eye candies and nostalgia grab

they just were done rly right, unlike the shit they did in MOM, who, just like NWH brought the same actors, like Xavier, and fan favorite Krasinki for the role. Jus because they were in a smaller scale doesn't mean the idea was not the same.

[Ophenia]

Are we sure of that?

Without going back and re-watching all the 838 stuff in the movie, I don't think it's ever really mentioned exactly how much of an impact Thanos had on their universe. Just some mention that he was a threat, they went to war to fight him off, 838 Strange destroyed another universe while looking for a way to beat him by dreamwalking using the Darkhold, and that they finally defeated him with a collective effort using the Book of Vishanti. The scene of 838 Strange's execution that Prof X shows 616 Strange basically only shows a Dead Thanos and the currently known members of the Illuminati. We know very little (to the point of effectively nothing) about how the actual conflict went. How long did it last? What other heroes were involved. How close did he get to his goal? We have no idea.

It is kind of interesting to note that in that scene, Thanos' corpse is seen still wearing the infinity gauntlet with what appears to be at least 1, or maybe 2 infinity stones still in it (it's hard to tell in the clip I found on youtube), so it's not outside the realm of possibility that they managed to defeat him before he collected all, or even most, of the stones in their universe.

Another thing to consider now that it occurs to me, it could be argued that they effectively got the "easy win" in their universe if you stop and think about it: They explicitly stated that they used the Book of Vishanti to defeat Thanos. The in movie description of the Book of Vishanti basically makes it out to be a cheat object. The MCU equivalent of a Wish Spell. You find it, you ask it for the power to defeat an enemy or solve a problem, and it gives it to you. Effectively an "I Win Button". Which could be interpreted to mean that they didn't defeat Thanos on their own merits, but rather that they only defeated Thanos because they had the magic macguffin. Which could go a fair ways toward explaining why they get rolled so hard by Wanda: They beat the game on easy mode, and nightmare mode just walked in and turned the lights off.

I have to admit that's probably some level of headcannon from me here - the fact he's defeated on Titan, if we consider the train of stuff happening in 616, make me thing they (838) won at the equivalent of Guardians of the Galaxy + Strange / Spider-Man / Iron Man in Infinity War - but it could have been way different.

It's pretty difficult to say, especially considering 838 is so different from 616 that we have no idea where 838 infinity stones would be. Did Thanos already take Strange's time stone ? Did Vision exist at all ? What happened with 838 Loki (and hence, the Tesseract / Scepter) ?

As for the "multiverse", the Celestials aren't really multiversal players. They typically operate on the "inside" the universe level, so every alternate verse would have it's copy of Arishem doing Arishem things, etc.

If I had to guess, they might set Galactus up as a Celestial, since going full bore into his comics lore origins would likely require too much infodumping for the average non comics fan to wrap their mind around.

Then again, who knows. Maybe they will go all the way down that rabbit hole. They have sort of skirted the edges of it with the introduction of Eternity as an actual entity in Love and Thunder.

I'm also pretty sure they made a one off reference to the giant celestial hand appearing in at least one subsequent movie and or TV series if I remember right (think I recall it being run on a news broadcast someone was watching, or something like that?)

I think I recall the same as you but can't remember if that was NWH or MoM. I would say MoM, when Strange discusses with America in the bar ? Not sure.

And yeah, I "know" that Celestials are not transcending the multiverse. But most of the threats we're facing since Eternals are dealing with quite an important destruction level. Kang is destroying entire universes off the multiverse, Incursions can make entire universes break down, Strange's spell would have probably had a huge impact on 616's (and probably lots of other ones).
One would think that Arishem could have bitch-slapped Scarlet / Strange when they started meddling with dreamwalking - especially so short after Earth 616 have killed a Celestial.

[MrLachyG]

Maybe, maybe not. We do know she exists in their universe (she's the body 616 Wanda is possessing), but pretty much everything we saw about her in their world seemed to indicate she was living a pretty normal domestic family life. When 616 Wanda took over 838 Wanda, there was basically no indication that 838 fought back or resisted like you would expect if she was a "powered" version of Wanda.

And even if we assume that the alternate Wanda she confronts at the end of the movie in the final scene (who we see with the the telltale red-hand-glow that indicates that at least that Wanda had powers) is the 838 Wanda (which we can't be sure of, but I am fairly certain is not), she still basically magically manhandles that other-Wanda like a kid tossing around dolls.

616 Wanda caught up to the trio of Strange, America and Christine in that strange dimension place. she sent Strange and Christine to another universe, and took Amanda back to the 616 verse. She then relinquished control of 838 Wanda who then flew up and out to get back to her kids

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I have to admit that's probably some level of headcannon from me here - the fact he's defeated on Titan, if we consider the train of stuff happening in 616, make me thing they (838) won at the equivalent of Guardians of the Galaxy + Strange / Spider-Man / Iron Man in Infinity War - but it could have been way different.

It's pretty difficult to say, especially considering 838 is so different from 616 that we have no idea where 838 infinity stones would be. Did Thanos already take Strange's time stone ? Did Vision exist at all ? What happened with 838 Loki (and hence, the Tesseract / Scepter) ?



I think I recall the same as you but can't remember if that was NWH or MoM. I would say MoM, when Strange discusses with America in the bar ? Not sure.

And yeah, I "know" that Celestials are not transcending the multiverse. But most of the threats we're facing since Eternals are dealing with quite an important destruction level. Kang is destroying entire universes off the multiverse, Incursions can make entire universes break down, Strange's spell would have probably had a huge impact on 616's (and probably lots of other ones).
One would think that Arishem could have bitch-slapped Scarlet / Strange when they started meddling with dreamwalking - especially so short after Earth 616 have killed a Celestial.

That's the thing; we don't know what happened in Universe 838. If it went the same way as it did in Universe 616 then Thanos had 4 stones by that point; but Strange through his dreamwalking saw how to defeat him. I mean hell, 616 would've defeated him (or at least gotten the stones away) had Quill not been a fucking idiot. Professor X puts him under just like Mantis did, and I would argue that Professor X is a lot more powerful than Mantis. Then you have Strange, Black Bolt, Reed, Captain Marvel and Captain Carter. all they have to do is restrain Thanos, Black Bolt does his thing and boom, no more Thanos.

pretty sure the news report was either in MoM or Ms Marvel. I know there were several easter eggs in Ms Marvel, can't remember each one specifically though. As for Arishem bitch slapping Scarlet/Strange, yeah probably. But would he have known what they were doing? I don't think they're omnipotent; they can probably sense when another Celestial dies, and can possibly control/see what the Eternals are doing but other than that they probably have no idea what's going on across the universe. Otherwise they would've stopped Thanos, because his plans directly affected theirs

[Surfd]

Then you have Strange, Black Bolt, Reed, Captain Marvel and Captain Carter. all they have to do is restrain Thanos, Black Bolt does his thing and boom, no more Thanos.

Except that we know that that isn't how they killed Thanos, since the vision Prof X shows 616 Strange has Thanos' corpse sprawled across a pile of rubble, impaled on his own sword, still wearing the infinity gauntlet. So whatever they did in their climactic fight at the finish, it didn't involve either Black Bolt blasting him OR them managing to take the gauntlet off of him. Which strongly suggests that the fight was probably nothing like it's 616 equivalent.

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And yeah, I "know" that Celestials are not transcending the multiverse. But most of the threats we're facing since Eternals are dealing with quite an important destruction level. Kang is destroying entire universes off the multiverse, Incursions can make entire universes break down, Strange's spell would have probably had a huge impact on 616's (and probably lots of other ones).
One would think that Arishem could have bitch-slapped Scarlet / Strange when they started meddling with dreamwalking - especially so short after Earth 616 have killed a Celestial.

The problem here is that we really just don't have enough information on how the MCU plans to treat the Celestials to make any kind of judgment calls on what they might do, or what their overarching motivations are at the moment. Basically the only thing we really know about them is that they are responsible for creating new galaxies in their universe, and that they use seed worlds as feeding incubators to birth new Celestials.

Would they view Thanos as a threat if they are aware of what he is doing? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they won't care because snapping half the life in the universe away doesn't "unbalance" their plans for growth, only "delay" them, since the entire universe would be affected equally. Maybe it isn't the loss of a Celestial that Arishem finds problematic, but rather the rebellion of his "tools" when the Eternals refuse to go along with the plan.

Are the Celestials their own masters? Or are they just bigger cogs in someone else's machine, exactly the same way the Eternals are supposed to be cogs in theirs?

I mean, based on what we currently know, the MCU iteration of the Celestials is significantly less complicated than the Comics version. The MCU version currently just seems to be more or less a system for creating galaxies, with a built in system for sustaining itself. In the comics, they were disenfranchised servants of the Living-Universe itself, who basically decided to wander the universe playing god and creating life as a weird, twisted form of worship for their own creator. They basically viewed all sentient life in the universe as petri-dish specimens to be toyed with and experimented on, and they would periodically return to check out the progress of their experiments, and if you failed their "test" they purged your petri-dish with fire and moved on.

[MrLachyG]

Except that we know that that isn't how they killed Thanos, since the vision Prof X shows 616 Strange has Thanos' corpse sprawled across a pile of rubble, impaled on his own sword, still wearing the infinity gauntlet. So whatever they did in their climactic fight at the finish, it didn't involve either Black Bolt blasting him OR them managing to take the gauntlet off of him. Which strongly suggests that the fight was probably nothing like it's 616 equivalent.

so I'm re-watching MoM right now. and we're definitely not getting all the facts on the Illuminati. When Professor X makes his entrance there are 6 chairs, 3 on each side with a space large enough for his chair in the middle. to his right sits Mordo, Marvel and Richards, to his left sits Carter and Black Bolt... which leaves a single chair. Now sure, it could be Strange's which they have left vacant for 5+ years but I would assume that Strange's chair was taken by Mordo. which leaves the question: who is that final chair for?

edit: they defeated Thanos using the Book of Vishanti

[Skildar]

It's because Reed is basically a numbers guy. A devotee of the idea that everything is a math problem to be solved. I mean, this is the guy who they wrote a massive comic arc around based on him actualizing the scientific formula for the theory of "psychohistory" as proposed by Asimov in the Foundation series. He goes straight up super-geek-science-recluse to literally attempt to solve the nature of human / superhuman development with a math equation.

Magic is basically Reed's antithesis: It's a loosely based structure of rules that can end up having different results entirely depending on who's reading the equation.

To Reed, X+Y always = Z. To a magician, X + Y = Cat, while another magician might do the exact same magical incantation and get X + Y = Carrot, because magic operates on personal willpower, desire and feeling just as much as it operates on the rules and formula's required to gather and shape power. Magic is a type of Abstract construct that Reed is basically just not wired properly to understand.

Then if that's all the character is, I don't understand how comic book readers can stick behind Reed holding the title of most intelligent man . Cerebral maybe but what you're describing isn't intelligence.

[Surfd]

so I'm re-watching MoM right now. and we're definitely not getting all the facts on the Illuminati. When Professor X makes his entrance there are 6 chairs, 3 on each side with a space large enough for his chair in the middle. to his right sits Mordo, Marvel and Richards, to his left sits Carter and Black Bolt... which leaves a single chair. Now sure, it could be Strange's which they have left vacant for 5+ years but I would assume that Strange's chair was taken by Mordo. which leaves the question: who is that final chair for?

Yeah, the missing 7th man has been speculated about since basically the first teaser for that scene dropped and people counted the chairs. We know it isn't for their Strange, cause Mordo is the acting Sorcerer Supreme for their council. The two most likely candidates were either their version of Iron man, or the more popular theory that it was an open hint at Namor, as he's usually a member of the Illuminati Council when they make comic appearances.

[MrLachyG]

Yeah, the missing 7th man has been speculated about since basically the first teaser for that scene dropped and people counted the chairs. We know it isn't for their Strange, cause Mordo is the acting Sorcerer Supreme for their council. The two most likely candidates were either their version of Iron man, or the more popular theory that it was an open hint at Namor, as he's usually a member of the Illuminati Council when they make comic appearances.

Were the Ultron sentries ever specifically mentioned to be the creation of Reed Richards? if not, then Iron Man is definitely on the Council. I would guess they also used them in the fight against Thanos and Iron Man took them back through a portal after the fight was done.

[Syegfryed]

which leaves the question: who is that final chair for?

Rumors and insiders said, so take with any amount of salt you want, it was indeed supposed to be Tom cruise as Superior Iron Man, but they were not able to get it, because reasons.

One of the reasons, as per the rumors/insiders is that Tom cruise didn't want to come in the role just to die. And there is also other rumors about him as superior iron man in other works like secret wars

[Shadowferal]

[Surfd]

Were the Ultron sentries ever specifically mentioned to be the creation of Reed Richards? if not, then Iron Man is definitely on the Council. I would guess they also used them in the fight against Thanos and Iron Man took them back through a portal after the fight was done.

Pretty much nothing was mentioned regarding the Ultron-esque Security bots in the movie. They exist, and that's basically all we know about them at this point. It's kind of hard to tell exactly how tough they were, given that Wanda pretty much manhandled a couple dozen of them with relative ease. They might have been about equivalent to the mass produced Ultron Drones in Age of Ultron. It's possible they could be Reed's handy work, but Reed was never really a big robotics guy from what I recall.

[Shadowferal]

It's possible they could be Reed's handy work, but Reed was never really a big robotics guy from what I recall.

If Stark was out of the picture, then it's Doom.

[Endus]

You can try to salvage this with nonsense all you want, you are telling me some battle trainned people would just stand there and watch their friends die is bogus and delusional,

I'm not wasting my time explaining how cinematography works again. The goal of a film is not to portray realism. Especially in a movie about a wizard who's traveling to other dimensions.

it was bad, does not matter how much you liked.

Nah.

And before any babbling about her powers, she was dreamwalking, she was not as her full strenght

And now you're just blatantly making shit up.

[MrLachyG]

I'm not wasting my time explaining how cinematography works again. The goal of a film is not to portray realism. Especially in a movie about a wizard who's traveling to other dimensions.

Nah.

And now you're just blatantly making shit up.

there's no point arguing with someone like that. they're completely in their own world, ignorant of any facts

[Skildar]

I'm not wasting my time explaining how cinematography works again. The goal of a film is not to portray realism. Especially in a movie about a wizard who's traveling to other dimensions.



Nah.



And now you're just blatantly making shit up.

it's not a matter of what cinematography is here. It is just that what you're looking for in a movie is not the same as others such as myself. You're not looking for something that holds up within its universe's rules as long as you're enjoying the spectacle while people like me want both.

You were already told about willing suspension of disbelief and yours is more permissive than mine for instance. If you tell me that Xavier can stop time for some character then I expect him to do so. When he doesn't in a situation that calls for it and there isn't any justification for him not to do so then my enjoyment is no longer there.