[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Syegfryed]

I don't really understand the critical reception to "Quantumania," I watched it last weekend and thought it was a pretty good movie. I'd heard a lot about how it was way too grimdark, it wasn't funny, etc. and I thought it was plenty funny. It is perhaps darker in tone than its two predecessor films, sure; but the gags and lighthearted banter were definitely still intact.

That is mostly the point people complain about, its the conflict of themes, trying to be funny and silly when its supossed to be a tense or darker scene.

+plus the fact that this movie was supposed to be much important with introducing the "next Thanos" didn't move the needle. Plus, too much contrived and convenient plot that just happens because the movie needs to happen.

He and his variants definitely feel like a threat, and I don't think we've seen the last of the exiled Kang the Conqueror depicted in Quantumania, either.

We seen so far two Kangs in the "main" MCU, in Loki and quantumania, and both of then died in a meh way, the one in quantumania was defeated by ants and one B tier hero, he defintly don't feel like a real threat yet.

It would be better if he actually won in the movie, like Thanos did previously.

[Surfd]

Because they were cameos, that help to build up the story

I mean, you can't pretend to understand this nonsense more than anyone since you were defending marvel shit like is gold.

No, they were not. You clearly have absolutely no idea what being a Cameo actually means.

Like, the basic definition of a Cameo is "a small character part in a play or movie, played by a distinguished actor or a celebrity."

Stan Lee's appearances in the marvel movies are Cameos. They exist purely to give Stan an appearance and that's it.

Even if you extend that a bit gratuitously to general "guest appearances" (things like Tom Hardy's Venom in the end credits scene is a Cameo level Guest Appearance), it's still the importance / size of the role that largely determines if you would consider something a Cameo.

The Illuminati in MoM are Cameo level guest appearances, because they are small roles. They each get maybe 10 minutes screen time (if that) out of the entire movie, and you could effectively replace them without changing pretty much any of the core elements of the scene. The entire 838 universe scene could have just as easily been "Strange and America meet an alternate universe bog-standard avengers team", or "Strange and America meet the Nova Corps" or even "Strange and America meet the Brotherhood of Evil mutants", and as long as whoever they met provided the requisite story exposition and then got wrecked by Wanda, nothing would have changed. They existed pretty much purely to allow a few familiar faces to make an appearance as a handout to the fans, and nothing more: Ie, Cameo level guest appearances.

NWH is completely different because all those Guest appearances are INTEGRAL to the story, and pretty much none of them are "small character parts". Most of them are there for half the movie or more, and the movie itself would not work the way it does if you just removed them or tried to replace them with someone else. 100% not comparable in any way.

[Syegfryed]

No, they were not. You clearly have absolutely no idea what being a Cameo actually means.

Like, the basic definition of a Cameo is "a small character part in a play or movie, played by a distinguished actor or a celebrity."

ITs nice to show that your understanding all this stuff is basic google search, but if you didn't noticed, both of then were played by distinguished actors, you know, reprising their own roles, and they had a small part on the movie, in Peter growth, as the focus was entirely on Tom Holland spider-man.

Now, if you want to spend pages discussing how much is small, im not going to participate, sorry.

[Aucald]

That is mostly the point people complain about, its the conflict of themes, trying to be funny and silly when its supossed to be a tense or darker scene.

+plus the fact that this movie was supposed to be much important with introducing the "next Thanos" didn't move the needle. Plus, too much contrived and convenient plot that just happens because the movie needs to happen.

I didn't really find any of the themes to be in conflict - the overall tone of the movie was darker than the preceding two Ant-man films, but not so dark as to have no humor at all. What humor there was made sense and was generally appropriate to its scene. I consider Kang to have been introduced in the Loki series, as well.

We seen so far two Kangs in the "main" MCU, in Loki and quantumania, and both of then died in a meh way, the one in quantumania was defeated by ants and one B tier hero, he defintly don't feel like a real threat yet.

It would be better if he actually won in the movie, like Thanos did previously.

I don't really consider either variant of Kang to be fully defeated, per se; He Who Remains was a death-seeker whose death was rendered pointless by more or less creating an infinity of copies of himself as it respawned the multiverse and his own admission that he will be more or less reborn as He Who Remains at the conclusion of his personal timeline. Kang the Conquerer didn't really die, he was just shrunk down by Scott's shrinking discs alongside his future-tech core, which as the ending of Quantumania points out may well have been a bad move on Scott's part (for multiple reasons). Ant-man temporarily defeated a Kang variant, sure; but in so doing painted a huge target on his home planet and dimension. His victory is decidedly Pyrrhic.

[Syegfryed]

Seems like the Ant-man movie died, it will be luck to not lost money at this point

I didn't really find any of the themes to be in conflict - the overall tone of the movie was darker than the preceding two Ant-man films, but not so dark as to have no humor at all. What humor there was made sense and was generally appropriate to its scene. I consider Kang to have been introduced in the Loki series, as well.

But thats the point, if the movie was supposed to be darker, then do it more serious, without the jokes. I mean, if this is what kickstarter phase 5 we would need some stakes and a consistent plot. I though some humor scenes were way sillier than Thor Ragnarok, but at least not on the level of love and thunder. But people seems to complain a lot about the overall theme/plot of the movie, that once again the trailer sold something else, and overshadowed the main heroes.

You would be surprised of how few people watched Loki, a lot of people were surprised to see him in the post credit

I don't really consider either variant of Kang to be fully defeated, per se; He Who Remains was a death-seeker whose death was rendered pointless by more or less creating an infinity of copies of himself as it respawned the multiverse and his own admission that he will be more or less reborn as He Who Remains at the conclusion of his personal timeline. Kang the Conquerer didn't really die, he was just shrunk down by Scott's shrinking discs alongside his future-tech core, which as the ending of Quantumania points out may well have been a bad move on Scott's part (for multiple reasons). Ant-man temporarily defeated a Kang variant, sure; but in so doing painted a huge target on his home planet and dimension. His victory is decidedly Pyrrhic.

But both died, they were defeated, post credit scenes confirm it.

What will do now is the others ones, thats the "kang dinasty", but again, didn't move the needle, He is nowhere close to Thanos, who by example, took down the hulk in a single fight without his stones, that is how you build a villain. Thats why i said Kang "winning" would make a better final to show him as a threat.

[Dystemper]

The writer if Quantumania is also writing for Avengers Kang Dynasty. Went in a twitter rant that all the critics are wrong and he did a good job. Have a feeling he gets fired soon. Maybe they need to stop hiring writers from Rick and Morty .

Quantumania is on pace to actually lose money now. Looking like it's officially dead . Marvels is a shit show as they are on 3rd round of massive reshoots and test audiences hate what they see.

Guardians should do well but it's not a phase 5 movie . Question is does Marvel and Disney stay the course for phase 5, or do they start damage control and put a halt on current projects and implement changes?

[exochaft]

The writer if Quantumania is also writing for Avengers Kang Dynasty. Went in a twitter rant that all the critics are wrong and he did a good job. Have a feeling he gets fired soon. Maybe they need to stop hiring writers from Rick and Morty .

Quantumania is on pace to actually lose money now. Looking like it's officially dead . Marvels is a shot show as they are on 3rd round if massive reshoots and test audiences hate what they see.

Guardians should do well but it's not a phase 5 movie . Question is foes Marvel and Disney stay the course for phase 5, or do they start damage control put a halt on current projects and implement changes?

Anyone who has been paying attention to the state of Marvel and what was know about Ant Man 3 likely knew it wasn't going to do well. Heck, even Disney knew as they revised down their projected opening weekend revenue at least twice before the premiere while still not meeting that revised projection. It's getting easier to acquire inside info from people working on these projects because there are people who actually care about the content they're making even if they feel their company and higherups don't. This is how you're getting more widespread knowledge about the scripts and test screenings when you usually had to have personal contacts on the inside... now there's enough vocal insiders that the information doesn't need to be solicited anymore. Heck, even the access media are more willing to leak stuff as some of them are getting dismayed and fed up with the current state of the MCU.

So technically, Disney is already in damage control. The reshoots and delays (some indefinite delays, aka likely canceled) aren't usually done when things are going as planned... especially when you end up having to reshoot and delay multiple times. Disney has even shuffled the order of films and what phases they'd end up in, which should be a huge warning flag that there probably isn't a solid and cohesive narrative line through the MCU right now. Furthermore, their CGI schedule is all messed up further when they shift content around or make too much content, to where they've openly stated that Ant Man 3's CGI had to suffer because they needed to shift those resources to Wakanda Forever.

Looking at the situation from a broader perspective, Feige was adamant that Captain Marvel was going to be the central binding figure of Phase 4 and beyond on the levels of Iron Man... can anyone say with a straight face that this is going to be true or effective at all? Only reason Captain Marvel made as much money as it did was because is was released a month before End Game, resulting in everyone and their mother going to see Captain Marvel because they wanted the tie-ins for End Game (aka, Captain Marvel piggybacked off of the hype of End Game, nothing more). Captain Marvel isn't going to be the same draw as Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man or any other Phase 1-3 tentpole character, it's not even close. At this point in Phase 5, the only last real draw is GotG 3... but once that's over, there's nothing left to draw in the masses.

However, I wouldn't expect any major shifts in the MCU content because of who are actually in control, as it's mainly the higherups either micromanaging or hiring people who will do everything they say. Everything is focused on the quantity of content with the correct 'message', not the quality of the content enjoyable to everyone. A sane person would say that pleasing your customers on a broad scale would likely maximize revenue, but I submit that those in charge don't think this way at all as they're highly insulated in their own sphere of yes-men who would rather make content to please themselves than their actual customers. To be fair, Disney is far from the only company that does this, but Disney will likely be the last one to change their ways because their revenue isn't solely tied to the MCU content.

[Dystemper]

Seems like the Ant-man movie died, it will be luck to not lost money at this point



But thats the point, if the movie was supposed to be darker, then do it more serious, without the jokes. I mean, if this is what kickstarter phase 5 we would need some stakes and a consistent plot. I though some humor scenes were way sillier than Thor Ragnarok, but at least not on the level of love and thunder. But people seems to complain a lot about the overall theme/plot of the movie, that once again the trailer sold something else, and overshadowed the main heroes.

You would be surprised of how few people watched Loki, a lot of people were surprised to see him in the post credit


But both died, they were defeated, post credit scenes confirm it.

What will do now is the others ones, thats the "kang dinasty", but again, didn't move the needle, He is nowhere close to Thanos, who by example, took down the hulk in a single fight without his stones, that is how you build a villain. Thats why i said Kang "winning" would make a better final to show him as a threat.

This is why Kang fails as a Thanos level big bad. Two versions, easily defeated. But just wait for the next variant! Boring as fuck. Terribly written and cliche . Getaway for a while from the multiverse level threats. Go back to saving the world or city from bad guys, tell more personal growth stories.

Mcu failed at worl building after the snap. Fir a workd that lost 50% of the population for 5 years abd then suddenly had them reappear. Things went back to normal rather quickly.

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Anyone who has been paying attention to the state of Marvel and what was know about Ant Man 3 likely knew it wasn't going to do well. Heck, even Disney knew as they revised down their projected opening weekend revenue at least twice before the premiere while still not meeting that revised projection. It's getting easier to acquire inside info from people working on these projects because there are people who actually care about the content they're making even if they feel their company and higherups don't. This is how you're getting more widespread knowledge about the scripts and test screenings when you usually had to have personal contacts on the inside... now there's enough vocal insiders that the information doesn't need to be solicited anymore. Heck, even the access media are more willing to leak stuff as some of them are getting dismayed and fed up with the current state of the MCU.

So technically, Disney is already in damage control. The reshoots and delays (some indefinite delays, aka likely canceled) aren't usually done when things are going as planned... especially when you end up having to reshoot and delay multiple times. Disney has even shuffled the order of films and what phases they'd end up in, which should be a huge warning flag that there probably isn't a solid and cohesive narrative line through the MCU right now. Looking at the situation from a broader perspective, Feige was adamant that Captain Marvel was going to be the central binding figure of Phase 4 and beyond on the levels of Iron Man... can anyone say with a straight face that this is going to be true or effective at all? Only reason Captain Marvel made as much money as it did was because is was released a month before End Game, resulting in everyone and their mother going to see Captain Marvel because they wanted the tie-ins for End Game (aka, Captain Marvel piggybacked off of the hype of End Game, nothing more). Captain Marvel isn't not going to be the same draw as Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man or any other Phase 1-3 tentpole character, it's not even close. At this point in Phase 5, the only last real draw is GotG 3... but once that's over, there's nothing left to draw in the masses.

However, I wouldn't expect any major shifts in the MCU content because of who are actually in control, as it's mainly the higherups either micromanaging or hiring people who will do everything they say. Everything is focused on the quantity of content with the correct 'message', not the quality of the content enjoyable to everyone. A sane person would say that pleasing your customers on a broad scale would likely maximize revenue, but I submit that those in charge don't think this way at all as they're highly insulated in their own sphere of yes-men who would rather make content to please themselves than their actual customers. To be fair, Disney is far from the only company that does this, but Disney will likely be the last one to change their ways because their revenue isn't solely tied to the MCU content.

Yeah the problem lies with Feige and thr higher ups, and not just Marvel. Look at the debacle with the Peter and Wendy trailer. Ratioed to hell, so what does Disney do? Copy right strike any YouTube content creators that mentioned it in a negative way, banning them from talking about it , censoring critics.

Even the shill access media is turning on Disney. You ate 100% right that more insiders are spilling the beans as to what's going on. Mad that they are hiting activists to be writers instead of talent to tell a entertaining story.

At some point the investors and the BOD gas to step in and stop this and put the company back on the path of profit . Iger is the one who started this, font think he has the guts to change it.
Phase 5 looks to be DOA. Time to replace Feige or at the least, course correct him and get back on track. Clearly what they are doing is a failure.

[Ausr]

This is why Kang fails as a Thanos level big bad. Two versions, easily defeated. But just wait for the next variant! Boring as fuck. Terribly written and cliche . Getaway for a while from the multiverse level threats. Go back to saving the world or city from bad guys, tell more personal growth stories.

Mcu failed at worl building after the snap. Fir a workd that lost 50% of the population for 5 years abd then suddenly had them reappear. Things went back to normal rather quickly.

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Yeah the problem lies with Feige and thr higher ups, and not just Marvel. Look at the debacle with the Peter and Wendy trailer. Ratioed to hell, so what does Disney do? Copy right strike any YouTube content creators that mentioned it in a negative way, banning them from talking about it , censoring critics.

Even the shill access media is turning on Disney. You ate 100% right that more insiders are spilling the beans as to what's going on. Mad that they are hiting activists to be writers instead of talent to tell a entertaining story.

At some point the investors and the BOD gas to step in and stop this and put the company back on the path of profit . Iger is the one who started this, font think he has the guts to change it.
Phase 5 looks to be DOA. Time to replace Feige or at the least, course correct him and get back on track. Clearly what they are doing is a failure.

Shill access media and thinking Disney aren't making profits. Good lord.

[Dystemper]

This is why Kang fails as a Thanos level big bad. Two versions, easily defeated. But just wait for the next variant! Boring as fuck. Terribly written and cliche . Getaway for a while from the multiverse level threats. Go back to saving the world or city from bad guys, tell more personal growth stories.

Mcu failed at worl building after the snap. Fir a workd that lost 50% of the population for 5 years abd then suddenly had them reappear. Things went back to normal rather quickly.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah the problem lies with Feige and thr higher ups, and not just Marvel. Look at the debacle with the Peter and Wendy trailer. Ratioed to hell, so what does Disney do? Copy right strike any YouTube content creators that mentioned it in a negative way, banning them from talking about it , censoring critics.

Even the shill access media is turning on Disney. You ate 100% right that more insiders are spilling the beans as to what's going on. Mad that they are hiting activists to be writers instead of talent to tell a entertaining story.

At some point the investors and the BOD gas to step in and stop this and put the company back on the path of profit . Iger is the one who started this, font think he has the guts to change it.
Phase 5 looks to be DOA. Time to replace Feige or at the least, course correct him and get back on track. Clearly what they are doing is a failure.

Well they are losing money, and Shill access media fir Disney is very real Well known they cut off media outlets who gave been negative to them. Can't lose that swag or early access . Where have you been, under a rock?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Pretty much nothing was mentioned regarding the Ultron-esque Security bots in the movie. They exist, and that's basically all we know about them at this point. It's kind of hard to tell exactly how tough they were, given that Wanda pretty much manhandled a couple dozen of them with relative ease. They might have been about equivalent to the mass produced Ultron Drones in Age of Ultron. It's possible they could be Reed's handy work, but Reed was never really a big robotics guy from what I recall.

Lest we forget:



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If Stark was out of the picture, then it's Doom.

Or Hank Pym.

Doom wouldn't make Ultron Sentries. Doom would make Doombots.

[Aucald]

But thats the point, if the movie was supposed to be darker, then do it more serious, without the jokes. I mean, if this is what kickstarter phase 5 we would need some stakes and a consistent plot. I though some humor scenes were way sillier than Thor Ragnarok, but at least not on the level of love and thunder. But people seems to complain a lot about the overall theme/plot of the movie, that once again the trailer sold something else, and overshadowed the main heroes.

You would be surprised of how few people watched Loki, a lot of people were surprised to see him in the post credit

I don't really consider "darker" to be a binary off/on type of deal. There's not "light and fluffy" and "grimdark" with nothing in between, as it were. Ant-man and the Wasp was a bit darker than the first Ant-man movie in my view, and Quantumania was a bit darker than either, but I don't think Ant-man would work as a concept without some quintessential humor involved (especially with Paul Rudd as the primary protagonist). The point is that a lot of the criticism condemned Quantumania as humorless, but in my view, that wasn't at all the case.

But both died, they were defeated, post credit scenes confirm it.

What will do now is the others ones, thats the "kang dinasty", but again, didn't move the needle, He is nowhere close to Thanos, who by example, took down the hulk in a single fight without his stones, that is how you build a villain. Thats why i said Kang "winning" would make a better final to show him as a threat.

He Who Remains died, but as I said above, the circumstances of his death made this a hollow victory if it could be said to be victory at all. Kang the Conqueror in Quantumania likely didn't die - we saw he was shrunk down, but just as was revealed with MODOK, that's not necessarily death. The Council of Kangs consider him dead, but they're not omniscient, either - I won't be surprised if the exiled Kang we saw in Quantumania returns later on, probably stronger than before. There are also multiple ways to build up a villain. Thanos was built up with teases and an ominous slow build before he came onto the scene, but it would probably be a mistake to make Kang copy Thanos' story arc note for note.

Kang may be built up by butting heads with the heroes over and over, growing in power and knowledge each time, becoming more and more of a threat organically with each encounter. Whether this works in the end is anyone's guess - but I, personally speaking, don't want Kang to just come across as Thanos 2.0.

[Kyphael]

Who says Quantamania was dark? I was laughing my ass off when there were like hundreds of Scotts, including Dairy Queen Scott who kept popping up. And when they built the Scotts pyramid to get to the thingamajig Quantum core (doohickey), I was laughing my ass off. "Do it for Cassie!" in stereo. It reminded me of the hundreds of Homers on the Treehouse of Horror.



And who can forget "seven holes?' Funny thing is, when Scott paused to count in his head, I did too. I do have seven holes! One is called the pie hole, the other is the corn hole--ok I'll stop.

[InfiniteCharger]

And that story's not the only story they're part of, and you're cherry-picking a relatively late story to boot; https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-616)

The Illuminati were, for instance, also fundamentally responsible for the events of World War Hulk. And when they first formed, Black Panther refused to join them, opposing the idea on principle, let alone being the guy who initiated it. It was their choices that led inevitably to the rise of Norman Osborn and the whole Dark Reign arc.

You're also willfully ignoring that later in the same incursion arc series, the Illuminati were themselves incursioning into other Earths and annihilating them.

Like, you're cherry-picking. Blatantly so. Take a grander view of the Illuminati's complete history, and your argument doesn't hold up at all.

None of that addresses my point which is that people want to see The FF4 and other members of the Illuminati, X-Men and so forth in the prime universe.
The comics already have established and we all agree that alternate universe characters have always been canon fodder. But the comics always used the prime universe heroes as the core of the story. And what is missing is an Illuminati team in the prime MCU universe. That is what people want and having some alternate version onscreen for a few seconds that gets demolished is simply annoying to those waiting for that team in the prime universe, especially a good adaptation of the FF4. The Illuminati in MOM were a cameo calling out to their fame as the ones who saved the multiverse in secret wars, because MOM was also a movie about the multiverse. Just like the actor from Ash vs the Evil Dead was a cameo because of the horror elements in MOM such as the undead Dr Strange and the director making MOM also made AVED.

[InfiniteCharger]

And I'm saying this is a problem with unreasonable expectations by fans making unwarranted headcanon leaps being upset their headcanon turns out to be untrue. Not a problem with the films. I'm a pretty massive Marvel fan, and I sure wasn't in any way upset or annoyed, I thought the scene was great.

It's not a "waste"; it establishes the threat posed by Wanda and her intentional brutality.

There was never a guarantee of any kind offered that you'd see any of those characters again, and some (Black Bolt and Carter's Captain America) are almost certainly never going to appear again. I'd seriously doubt Stewart's gonna reprise his role as Xavier, too; he's getting too old and I'm pretty sure that's a big reason they included the Fox X-men theme when he appeared; it's a reference to his character from those films rather than a teaser for what's upcoming for Marvel.

It is a waste because the only reason the studio put them in the movie was to appease the fans who want to see the FF4 and Illuminati in the MCU. It was designed to be a cameo for that reason because the FF4 and Illuminati are not officially in the prime MCU universe. Everybody knows this and this is why some people were dissatisfied with their treatment given that there is no permanent FF4 or X-Men in the MCU. So it was a waste because it does not depict the actual prime Illuminati from the comics as the most bad ass of any universe, because that Illuminati does not exist in the MCU. It was intended to appease the fans of comics who were familiar with those characters but the way they were treated was a let down. Cameos only work as cameos when the audience recognizes the actor or character that is being shown in cameo.

Krakowski's Reed is the only real teaser in there. Mordo's already active in the MCU, and that leaves only Reed as a feasible teaser. And it's just Reed, not the rest of the Fantastic Four.

Come on man you are just running away from the point which is that the Illuminati itself was a cameo because they don't exist in the prime MCU. There is no real debate here. Their presence was as a cameo because it is a call back to their fame from the comics while not being a permanent part of this cinematic universe. Just like the guy selling hot dogs was a cameo for Ash from the Evil Dead. Same idea.

And would fly directly against their position against multiversal travel. Again, reasons why it's unreasonable to think any of these characters (the 838 versions) would ever show up in the MCU again even if they hadn't been killed outright.

Because they aren't from the prime universe. Having them show up is not the same as them being part of the prime universe from the start. Again, the MCU is an Avengers universe because it was made with the rights to those character while the characters from the Illuminati like the FF4 and X-Men, were not included because they didn't have the rights to them. Those rights only came later after Disney bought Fox. Which is the whole reason why I said the MCU is an Avengers franchise and it is best to just stick to that. Trying to turn it into anything else by incorporating the X-Men and FF 4 after establishing that these characters don't exist in this universes timeline up to this point is likely to go badly.

"People" are a useful demographic, since you never say which people or provide any polling evidence to support the claim.

I'm "people" too, and I don't agree with anything you're saying. If we get the FF in the MCU, I could see starting them in the '60s, before having them fall through a wormhole and land in 2028 (or whatever the current date is for the MCU at that time). But it's probably easier just to start fresh. And the X-men, most of the calls I see are asking for characters like Rogue and Wolverine, and they're not original X-men. I said way up-thread that they could either go with a fresh start with the originals, or go with a more modern lineup from the last 20 years, but there's little to recommend the '90s team over anything else.

Yes, but that would just be a convoluted story regardless. There are many ways they could do it, but establishing a new franchise around the FF4 and then incorporating Galactus, Dr Doom and Silver Surfer would be a challenging task, given their glaring absence up to this point.

A lot of stories are "popular". Not just the ones you're picking.

And the Avengers in the comics had some of the same characters, but Captain America wasn't a founding member, and Hawkeye and Black Widow didn't join for ages. Ant-man was a founding member, along with the Wasp, but they didn't show up in the MCU until the end of Phase 2, and it's Scott Lang's Ant-Man, not Hank Pym's, to boot.

The MCU doesn't do direct translations from comics to the MCU. It's an unreasonable expectation.

Never said anything about direct translations at all, versus being generally faithful to the comics which they were in phases 1 - 3. What they are doing now is moving farther and farther away from the comics and using characters and events in name only. Secret Wars is an event being copied from the comics in name only. Most of the plot and story will be very derivative, just like MOM was a derivative version of House of M. And biggest difference is they are missing key elements of those stories like mutants from House of M and the whole roster of heroes and villains for Secret Wars. The whole point of Secret Wars, whether the first or second story, was to put all the biggest marvel heroes and villains together in battleworld. But most of those heroes and villains don't exist in the MCU so you cannot bank on them since they don't exist. And just having brief glimpses of those other characters as cameos again is not going to address the fact that they don't exist in the prime universe.

[Endus]

None of that addresses my point which is that people want to see The FF4 and other members of the Illuminati, X-Men and so forth in the prime universe.

Okay?

That's in no way off the table or in any way impinged upon by the appearance of certain characters on Earth-838.

The comics already have established and we all agree that alternate universe characters have always been canon fodder. But the comics always used the prime universe heroes as the core of the story. And what is missing is an Illuminati team in the prime MCU universe. That is what people want and having some alternate version onscreen for a few seconds that gets demolished is simply annoying to those waiting for that team in the prime universe, especially a good adaptation of the FF4.

Getting annoyed by that is wildly unreasonable, and speaks only to your unwarranted expectations, not the film itself.

I really want an MCU Fantastic Four film. I've been hoping for one for ages, given how well they've achieved other goals and the massive flaws in other studios' attempts. Was I "annoyed" by what happened to Reed et al in MoM? Nope. It's not a Fantastic Four film, and the teaser that they've got Krasinski cast in the role was exciting to me. The rest, as I described earlier, I couldn't care less about; Rambeau and Mordo are already there, and Stewart's getting too old for Xavier, so if he ever did appear in the prime universe, I imagine it would be as another cameo, to die and hand off the school to someone else (Scott or Emma or Wolverine or Kittie Pryde are all solid picks).

Krasinski's presence is an appetizer. An amuse bouche. It's meant to get you excited for the "real" Reed Richards when the FF film comes out. I do not understand being "annoyed" by his appearance, at all. It makes no sense. This doesn't take away from that future film in any way, and this wasn't an FF film, and it's clearly an alternate universe, so where's the grounds for annoyance?

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Never said anything about direct translations at all, versus being generally faithful to the comics which they were in phases 1 - 3. What they are doing now is moving farther and farther away from the comics and using characters and events in name only. Secret Wars is an event being copied from the comics in name only. Most of the plot and story will be very derivative, just like MOM was a derivative version of House of M.

Dude, you can't claim a story is both "in name only" and "very derivative".

[Biomega]

Dude, you can't claim a story is both "in name only" and "very derivative".

Seems the perfect summation for a particular kind of Marvel fan: "I hate how the MCU just rips off comic stories, but I also hate how they deviate from comic stories. I WANT SOME ORIGINAL STUFF THAT'S ALSO CARBON-COPY how hard is it to cater to these wildly opposed demands???!!!"

[Syegfryed]

He Who Remains died, but as I said above, the circumstances of his death made this a hollow victory if it could be said to be victory at all. Kang the Conqueror in Quantumania likely didn't die - we saw he was shrunk down, but just as was revealed with MODOK, that's not necessarily death. The Council of Kangs consider him dead, but they're not omniscient, either - I won't be surprised if the exiled Kang we saw in Quantumania returns later on, probably stronger than before. There are also multiple ways to build up a villain. Thanos was built up with teases and an ominous slow build before he came onto the scene, but it would probably be a mistake to make Kang copy Thanos' story arc note for note.

How it was a hollow victory? they stopped the conqueror and freed the people from the quantum realm, and even got home fine to eat cake.

I would take word from the millions of kangs who can control time and space to know one of then died, and knowing marvel, i doubt they will use the same variant again.

It don't need to make a copy of thanos story, but actually show him a thread, and dying both times he appear don't do the job. Like, Kang already is a joke villain in some comics, if you make him dying/defeated two times already you lose interest.

Kang may be built up by butting heads with the heroes over and over, growing in power and knowledge each time, becoming more and more of a threat organically with each encounter.

Getting beaten up every time until he strong enough seems like the worst way to build up a villain, this is like anime hero development.

[Aucald]

How it was a hollow victory? they stopped the conqueror and freed the people from the quantum realm, and even got home fine to eat cake.

I would take word from the millions of kangs who can control time and space to know one of then died, and knowing marvel, i doubt they will use the same variant again.

It don't need to make a copy of thanos story, but actually show him a thread, and dying both times he appear don't do the job. Like, Kang already is a joke villain in some comics, if you make him dying/defeated two times already you lose interest.

I was referring to He Who Remains' death as a hollow victory, not the Kang in Quantumania. Of course, based on Scott's many doubts exposed in the finale of Quantumania, I would say that Kang the Conqueror's "death" also rings rather hollow, if not because he's not actually dead then because Scott made his world the immediate target of an infinity of other Kang variants.

Also, I haven't lost any interest in Kang as a character, so YMMV. I don't really follow the comics, but hasn't everyone had a turn as a joke villain in the comics? I mean, Thanos had the "Thanos 'copter" in the comics, which is just about as silly as it gets.

Getting beaten up every time until he strong enough seems like the worst way to build up a villain, this is like anime hero development.

Depends on the execution, really. There's a reason that the "From Nobody to Nightmare" trope exists in media and fiction, after all. I also don't know how "anime hero development" works in the general sense, but I assume this also varies based on execution.

[Syegfryed]

I was referring to He Who Remains' death as a hollow victory, not the Kang in Quantumania. Of course, based on Scott's many doubts exposed in the finale of Quantumania, I would say that Kang the Conqueror's "death" also rings rather hollow, if not because he's not actually dead then because Scott made his world the immediate target of an infinity of other Kang variants.

that is assuming the others kangs would go to the quantumrealm, this one control it just because he crashed there and could not get out. It was rly a win

Also, I haven't lost any interest in Kang as a character, so YMMV. I don't really follow the comics, but hasn't everyone had a turn as a joke villain in the comics? I mean, Thanos had the "Thanos 'copter" in the comics, which is just about as silly as it gets.

thanos copter was old shit, not rly a good comparison

Depends on the execution, really. There's a reason that the "From Nobody to Nightmare" trope exists in media and fiction, after all. I also don't know how "anime hero development" works in the general sense, but I assume this also varies based on execution.

The protagonist being defeated time and time again by the villain or the villain forces, then he get stronger and beat the villain, thats like the epitome of a shounen, i never saw a good villain with that troop