Dungeons was more fun before M+

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Normal and Heroic dungeons are still there. Still just as relevant as they were in Vanilla. Which is to say, relevant when you're leveling and first exploring a new zone, and mostly forgotten after. But you can still keep playing those if those are your jam. No judgment here. Have fun!

What M+ has done, for most of us, is make dungeons relevant for entire expansions. For most of us, M+ is right up there with Transmog among the greatest innovations in history of WoW.

[Arai]

The discussion shouldnt be about if older Dungeons were better because of no scaling. The discussion should be if their current design with timers is good or bad. You could have BRD as M+ but without a timer, so a scaling dungeon. Without a timer the dungeon design could be much more free and open a lot of ways. Sadly nothing has changed in 7 years and we are still stuck with the same iteration of M+. I personally think the timer is a terrible design and really puts me off doing M+ (I have 2.7k+ io). I did a lot the first weeks and now only do like 1 per week and may stop soon. I also cant be arsed to do them on alts because they are just so much of a hassle and too repetetive and stressfull. We already have people on the barricades because affixes are complete garbage. Key depletion is also a huge issue and not fixed. Leavers ruining your key and 60 min are gone.

Also Ion saying that the Mega Dungeons are the substitute for the 10m raids/dungeons back in the day for people that enjoy a slower pace is a joke. They dont scale and become a boring repetetive M+ slog just the same after a few months. If they scaled the Mega Dungeon just like M+ but without a timer it would be much better.
I enjoy dungeons so much more at the beginning when you can take your time, discuss strategies at a boss and just not be bothered about time. Yes they were new at that time but all this gogogo is just so goddamn annoying. Id rather play something else thanks. It also gives people on voice a huge advantage because they can discuss stuff on the fly while almost all pugs dont do that, especially not in lower/mid keys.
If they atleast implemented a pause option so if someone has a DC or you want to discuss something etc you can do that without wasting time, but they are either too incompetent or have some retarded design philosophie why they wont do it.

[Grimbold21]

Completely agree. However, you will get little sympathy from the majority of current WoW players. They are attracted to the "Go Go Go!" attitude of shooters and have little to no interest in RPG or using tactics other than those that bypasses as much of the dungeon as quickly as possible...which is why they actually like M+.

The other part about older dungeons that most of the current player base never understood is that Blizz gave us twice as many dungeons, so it took longer to reach exhaustion. M+ fans don't care about content...they are easily enticed by achievements and getting the same gear all over again with slightly better stats.

Unfortunately, most of the players that actually prefer things like RPG and actual content have mostly moved on to multiple other games.

As for myself, I definitely miss the old days of being able to take my time in a dungeon. Having to consider aggro and cc, and having alts that played differently instead of every spec having pretty much the same functions as any other spec of that type.

However, I realize that that type of audience is in the minority anymore, and that Blizz is going to chase the easy money (the real reasons M+ exists...it fools the "Go Go Go!" crowd into thinking they have content with Blizz having to put very little effort into maintaining it).

Just a minor but significant note here.

The "gogogo" mentality is not something new. It dates back to wotlk and the arguably drastic effect it had on 5 man content. If you enjoyed the slower, measured approach to dungeons, wotlk kicked that out of the door, and brought in the gogogo approach. As we all know, that meant that if you're not speeding through a dungeon, you're doing something wrong. I even recall that in some instances, it felt like walking on eggshells to reintroduce the idea of CCing trashpacks when Cata first came out.

And this is the same as with all forms of convenience: once you put in something that (some) players perceive to be better - whatever better means to them here - you'll be hard pressed to revert it.

It's like the Flying divide.

[Lei]

Dungeons were relevant for like two months, if that, and then they basically got ignored because they were irrelevant.

If the existence of M+ means 5man dungeons are relevant the whole expansion, then that is a W in my book. You should think of M+ less as a dungeon you consume at your own pace, and instead a 30-40 minute raid boss with checkpoints.

So you weren't running dungeons for badges... Even in mop, I used to farm dungeons for justice after capping valor to buy heirlooms for my alts.

Mythic plus is a scam in my book. Dungeons could get upgraded ilevel loot without this infinite difficulty bullshit. People go there for loot, not for seasonal and added affixes. The devs could sell it in Legion with extremely lucrative rewards, and now people are just hooked on it, aka "Guess this is how we live now".
in reality, the devs are making harder and harder for people to get high ilevel loot. They are slowly but surely moving the goalposts with it.

And now you can't even run a normal dungeon without doing m+ tactics. I farmed some dragonriding customization in nokhud, took me a couple of kills, and I shit you not, in most runs getting to the last boss was different each time. One thing was the same: the whining. "WAI DONT U SKIP" in one group "WAI U SKIP" in another group, "WAI DONT U KNOW HOW TO SKIP NOOB TANK".

OP I completely agree but good luck getting people on MMO-C to see it.

Dungeons have to have a specific layout now or else they're not M+ friendly. Obviously they're going to design mobs, encounters, and routes based on the inevitability that they turn it into a M+ dungeon so there's basically no chance for creativity. They literally can't make some mechanics because it would lead to an instant wipe in a M+ scenario.

I dunno, M+ imo was a pandora's box that never should have been opened. It was cool for a bit and it's fun with friends but that's really about it, I'd honestly love to go back to the days when dungeons just had a set difficulty and were allowed to be whatever they were.

This

[erifwodahs]

This

Mate, did you play this game in TBC? Because layout is very similar and if you look at WotLK dungeons, they might as be m+ from map perspective.
Same with all shit arguments about how people can't run dungeons without m+ tactics - as if people didn't expect you to run old dungeons in way. Damn, just look at classic - and don't even say it's the retail players who ruined it.

By the way, if community didn't want efficiency, how would some "top 1% elitist minority" can force most of people to speed run? It might be that most of people are ok with not slacking.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Those dungeons are still there. Mythic+ just exists on top of what was there before.
And that is not something to ignore, because before M+ dungeon loot was severely limited in its scope compared to raids.

[erifwodahs]

Also Ion saying that the Mega Dungeons are the substitute for the 10m raids/dungeons back in the day for people that enjoy a slower pace is a joke. .

We only had massive dungeons in vanilla. It's like expecting BMW to make tanks now or some shit. Mega dungeons are modern substitue and does a good job with hardmodes.

People expect WoW to be something it has only been briefly.

[Lei]

Mate, did you play this game in TBC? Because layout is very similar and if you look at WotLK dungeons, they might as be m+ from map perspective.
Same with all shit arguments about how people can't run dungeons without m+ tactics - as if people didn't expect you to run old dungeons in way. Damn, just look at classic - and don't even say it's the retail players who ruined it.

By the way, if community didn't want efficiency, how would some "top 1% elitist minority" can force most of people to speed run? It might be that most of people are ok with not slacking.

It's not the top 1% elitist minority who forces this. It's their fanbase. Don't get me wrong. We've seen this in raids as well. Skips and wallhugging "bet who's gonna bodypull half Firelands trash?" etc. But this is a dungeon. People are leveling here, barely know what buttons to press.

Classic is the way it is because it's a 10+ year old game and people have been practicing it for years. Just watch old game speedruns. Lion king? Dude does it in 16 mins. Sonic? Rayman? You name it. Looking back, JAB maybe wasn't wrong with the "You think you do" thought. From the players perspective people started to min max, speedrun, use weird old faults in the game. If it was MY game, that I loved and cherished and respected, maybe I wouldn't have released classic either. I don't think players you speak of treat classic fairly. In a sentimental/nostalgic way.

[Arai]

We only had massive dungeons in vanilla. It's like expecting BMW to make tanks now or some shit. Mega dungeons are modern substitue and does a good job with hardmodes.

People expect WoW to be something it has only been briefly.

No we are mainly talking about old Karazhan, Zul'Aman.

[loras]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Eh, BRD was more like the modern elite areas, like Nokhud hold or Tyrhold, but a lot bigger, comprehensive and having a clearer idea regarding its story and functioning.

Now i do agree that m+'s influence has been limiting in some senses om the way m+ is designed, but as they've shown with i.e. Azure Vaults and Nokhud offensive it's nit necessarily overly limiting nor always negative.

And there are the megadungeons, of which my only criticism is that they tend to sacrifice choice for linearity for the sake of telling just one story.
Which is not the purpose of a megadungeon imo; it should be like BRD, telling of their dabblings and militarism, of their past and their woes, and finally how they came to be servants of the firelord.


And remember: BRD predates the very concept of instancing in WoW, and Molten Core existed as part of it.


So yeah, if you were to ask me i'd say slightly less linear dyngeons (storywise as well as gameplay) and more extensive and comprehensive outdoor zones would the answer.

Like imagine Obsidian Citadel with Neltharus connected to it uninstanced, with maybe a "future dungeon" portal added to the point from which the djaradin broke into the citadel.

[Chucknourishlol]

Ok maybe not the very top M+ runners but the point remains that dungeons like ToP allows for variance compared to a dungeon like Grimrail Depot.

And that's all I really want from M+ dungeons: Have enough variance in them to allow for alternative routes instead of putting players in a tied to the rail pathing.

Most dungeons have some variance in how they can be done, its just that usually players stick with the most optimal strategy unless its a bit more complicated.

For example Azure Vault can skip most trash from the 2nd to 3rd boss but you have to pull extra before the first boss and execute the jumps properly. Does it save time, probably with a group that doesnt fail and die on the jump. Is it PUG friendly, not really.

Nokhud - most groups get to 94% trash before the final boss because flying over the side and pulling the two lieutenants will be faster then landing in the walkway from the center and pulling the packs of mobs that are much more dangerous than any trash at the 1st/3rd boss where you would make up the count.

Alegethar - well you can either start tree boss and have a bit more backtracking but have lust available for a huge monster pull on certain weeks, or you go the other way.

Ruby Life Pools - not much variance since you are almost always over 100% count unless you skip a few packs at 2nd boss (red dragon + final patrol) or shroud/invis pots past trash before 3rd boss and you have to be careful overpulling trash before 1st boss.

What would the dungeon look like if it has "enough variance to allow for alternative routes" when these dungeons exist already. How much variance is too much or to little?
These examples of the new dungeons that have variance but for the most part all groups run the same routes, because its the most optimal and known routes for PUGs to get through.

[Tojara]

Um, I only think some of the classic dungeons felt like 'dungeons'. As soon as you hit TBC that sort of goes away. Individual areas in TBC felt like dungeons, but they were in central hub areas with long winding corridors and different themes. HFP had (3) dungeons and (1) raid that told a story, and realistically speaking they could've made it a giant singular complex with a raid portal to Magtheridon much like they had with the original MC.

BRD, BRS, Mara and Stratholme are the only dungeons that operated like this. SM could have easily had the portal at the start of SM and you would've had a giant ass dungeon, and while the functionality of DM allows you to jump from North to West, they also easily could've had it be a singular giant 'dungeon' by just having one portal to it as well. BRS, Mara and Strat are setup so you generally do one section of the dungeon at a time with repeated runs necessary to complete objectives, but you CAN do every section at once when you fully unlock.

Suramar (while not a dungeon) is pretty much an open world BRD, complete with a story, two dungeons and a raid to cap it off. Modern day BRD would likely be more of a staging area with lots of different paths, and it would lend itself to the Suramar treatment.

I think dungeons are more fun now because you literally have more reason to run them. They were something that was quickly obsoleted back in the day, or due to shear ignorance at the time were run far more often than they had to be because of the times. Most of the reason the old dungeons took so long was simply because it was a pain in the ass to get people to the dungeon, the fear of disconnecting was pretty high, and most people had no idea how to play the game or where to go. We went from a game where everybody hid their secrets about how they did dungeons, abused mechanics or even did raids, to a game where everything is revealed before it even goes live, raids are streamed live, and it's a race to post guides for monetization. The dungeons (the ones connected to raids) were meant to be completed multiple times because of quests and attunements, and somehow I think the audience who wants old dungeons wouldn't like the idea of having to do a dungeon several times in order to be eligible for a raid.

Case in point you're never going to get the same old 'dungeon' feel unless you can collectively use the device from MiB to erase the entire worlds memory. Things are optimized before they go live, and in cases with games that keep that stuff hidden until it goes live, there's still a mad scramble by the community to let everybody know exactly how to do things.

Finally those dungeons still exist. Also people tend to exaggerate how strict requirements are when doing M+. There are plenty of ways to do dungeons, but less ways to do dungeons if you're pushing the highest keys. Generally speaking if you don't do a conventional route and aren't drooling on your keyboard with wipes/deaths constantly, you will generally time a dungeon. I go off the standard path in many dungeons (I only do like 20s) because there's no need to make up time or do risky pulls in some areas because we have plenty of time. If I can do that in 20s, most of the player base should be able to extend that logic to lower key thresholds as well. Basically, you can take your time and avoid dangerous pulls far more often than your led to believe, you can even.. CC if you REALLY want to (but popular to contrary belief, CC takes the skill out of a pull) to make it a little bit easier to handle.

Do I think M+ needs a slight make over? Probably. But it's clearly a popular idea and the foundation shouldn't be shaken up too much. Some people think arena was a mistake and want it gone, but that's not going to happen. Some people even go as far to think BGs are dumb and it's better if we just had world PvP. For me? I think solo shuffle is absolute dogshit, but clearly enough people like it to where it would be dumb for me to campaign on the thought of just yeeting it out of existence.

[Nachtigal]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

I disagree, dungeons have never been better. M+ keeps them feeling fun far longer than when they're just loot pinatas.

[cigawoot]

So you weren't running dungeons for badges... Even in mop, I used to farm dungeons for justice after capping valor to buy heirlooms for my alts.

Correct, I wanted to run dungeons for the challenge. The closest we had to that in MoP and WoD was challenge modes, but those really left something to be desired. There was no sense of progression in challenge modes, as your gear was just locked to a specific ilvl. Sure some trinkets might change things a bit, but overall they also got boring after a while, especially after you achieved Gold in each dungeon.

Mythic+ literally makes dungeons infinitely replayable. There's always a higher goal to attain, there's always something to push towards. If you don't want to play M+, then don't. Most AOTC guilds are not going to make you do M+, it's only CE guilds that are going to do that. Just do 0s and enjoy them for what they are. The rest of us will have fun doing a dungeon run in a challenging environment.

[Zoura]

Just look how dungeons were before Mythic+, how long did they last? Just check Classic, you do it once or so. Depending on your luck. Mythic+ is one of the bis things they added to the game imo, and keeping things fresh.

[Thirtyrock]

As I'm sure others pointed out, after initial gearing through Heroics, there was little to no reason to run dungeons prior to M+. If they launched a new dungeon with a patch, it was run briefly, then was ignored. The only real exception was if you needed whatever token was being offered as the daily quest/reward.

By the end of Wrath (but before LFD), I was solo running most of the daily heroics because it was easier and faster as a tank than finding a full group, why would I bother when I could make it through on my own?

Now, I LOVED Cata dungeons at launch, because they were difficult, but, even before the nerfs, they quickly became obsolete because we got raid gear, so, once again, there was no reason to run them except tokens/valor/whatever the gear currency was (I can't even remember if there WAS a gear currency at that point /shrug).

[Lei]

Just look how dungeons were before Mythic+, how long did they last? Just check Classic, you do it once or so. Depending on your luck. Mythic+ is one of the bis things they added to the game imo, and keeping things fresh.

It's like getting a bucket of sand and spreading around in your living room, so you can say finally you can vacuum 2 times a week becasue before you could only vacuum once, and this way vacuuming is so fresh and always different.

i wonder how many people would run m+ if there wasn't gear in it every season.

[Tiwack]

Yea, timers without rpg components or tie-ins don't feel great.

I think they're doing better at making dungeons more than just a series of halls and corridors though. With uldaman the only exception...

[Alroxas]

Now, I LOVED Cata dungeons at launch, because they were difficult, but, even before the nerfs, they quickly became obsolete because we got raid gear, so, once again, there was no reason to run them except tokens/valor/whatever the gear currency was (I can't even remember if there WAS a gear currency at that point /shrug).

The other issue with Cata (and older xpac dungeons) is that they didn't stay relevant as the expansion went on. The initial launch dungeons were replaced by ZA/ZG which where then replaced by the 3 at the last content patch (End Time, Well, Hour of Twilight).

At least with M+, the dungeons can stay relevant. And yes running X dungeon the nth time was getting boring in SL so we have a rotating mix and match for DF.

[erifwodahs]

No we are mainly talking about old Karazhan, Zul'Aman.

Which were raids and not dungeons?