Is there any new lore that is coming to justify the cross-faction guilds?

[Le Conceptuel]

azerite arms race

This is one thing I find ridiculous that it was never actually exploited in the plot and story of BfA. How in the fuck do they present a pitch for an expansion that boils down to "they just discovered magic plutonium dredged up from a dying planet" and fail to exploit that opportunity? The threat of mutually-assured destruction compounded with excavation efforts that could exacerbate the uncontrollable bleeding of your planet would be a pretty powerful existential threat that would add a great deal of drama and tension to the ongoing global war.

I think the Old Gods should've stayed behind the curtain for the entirety of the expansion—they could've further inflamed the preexisting tensions and let the war carry itself. It would've been nice to continue the buildup through BfA instead of shoving two or three expansions into one. The primary story could've been a grayscale war of survival, with Magni serving as the planet's Lorax and a conscientious objector while the Old Gods schemed in the background and occasionally popped up to make sure things keep going the way they want them to. The war itself could've been more than enough for people to get themselves immersed in the expansion, and playing up the existential threat of Azerite would've made it feel far more like both sides were justified. Combine that with a preemptive, but arguably very justifiable, Alliance first strike, and you'd have something pretty strong.

[Itisamuh]

The same lore that justified the class orders in Legion. Most people, in and out of game, could not give any less of a flying fuck about the factions and think the whole thing is retarded, given that they are exactly the same and have the exact same ideals and goals, always working together to stop actual threats. There are plenty of actual enemies that justify keeping it being Warcraft, the faction war has been pointless for a very long time, well over a decade.

[Amnaught]

Yes yes i know Alliance/Horde players with certain heroes have temporarily united for a raids at least once or twice every expansion.

But a fully fledged cross faction guild functionality is huge departure from that, now its official that guilds and Azeroth "Champions" are now united.
Coming off of BFA this is a huge stretch without the necessary lore building blocks.

Even Blizzard doesn't pretend that everything is squared off and boxes ticked so... whats the story? Why are the faction restrictions being removed storywise? What happened for this monumental change? What diplomatic or threat forced this union?

Cross faction guilds have existed in lore since vanilla.

Literally every faction with a reputation bar and members from races of each faction. The Kirin Tor. Silver Hand. Illidari. Knights of the Ebon Blade. Scarlet Crusade. Bloodsail Buccaneers. Gadgetzan.

This isn't a union. This is individuals being more loyal to their own, smaller faction than to the Alliance or Horde militaries.

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The same lore that justified the class orders in Legion. Most people, in and out of game, could not give any less of a flying fuck about the factions and think the whole thing is retarded, given that they are exactly the same and have the exact same ideals and goals, always working together to stop actual threats. There are plenty of actual enemies that justify keeping it being Warcraft, the faction war has been pointless for a very long time, well over a decade.

Hard disagree here. I'm all for Guilds existing as their own "factions", but the Horde vs Alliance war is like.... having a favorite football team in my eyes. It's fun to pick a side. For the Horde!

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This is one thing I find ridiculous that it was never actually exploited in the plot and story of BfA. How in the fuck do they present a pitch for an expansion that boils down to "they just discovered magic plutonium dredged up from a dying planet" and fail to exploit that opportunity? The threat of mutually-assured destruction compounded with excavation efforts that could exacerbate the uncontrollable bleeding of your planet would be a pretty powerful existential threat that would add a great deal of drama and tension to the ongoing global war.

I think the Old Gods should've stayed behind the curtain for the entirety of the expansion—they could've further inflamed the preexisting tensions and let the war carry itself. It would've been nice to continue the buildup through BfA instead of shoving two or three expansions into one. The primary story could've been a grayscale war of survival, with Magni serving as the planet's Lorax and a conscientious objector while the Old Gods schemed in the background and occasionally popped up to make sure things keep going the way they want them to. The war itself could've been more than enough for people to get themselves immersed in the expansion, and playing up the existential threat of Azerite would've made it feel far more like both sides were justified. Combine that with a preemptive, but arguably very justifiable, Alliance first strike, and you'd have something pretty strong.

"Both sides were justified"

The entire expansion's story was garbage specifically because of this one failure in my eyes. I was so fucking hyped when the cinematic released. "FOR THE HORDE!" and "FOR THE ALLIANCE!" like we could really pick a side and treat the other as the villain. I was so convinced, like they wanted us to be, that Sylvanas was going to have a Houjin-styled REAL reason to burn Teldrassil, and the playerbase could pick a side and argue it justifiably in good fun from either direction. Like the tree was corrupted again and the Alliance was resistant to cull the corruption, or literally anything beyond "undead Hitler is lying to us and just wants to kill as many people as possible, so we're going to Find Ourselves and join the Alliance... again".

It just seems so easy to do. But nah, that "FOR THE HORDE!" in the cinematic was literally just a lie. Bullshit.

[Mehrunes]

Anduin's spores spread have finally spread across all faction territories. Rather obvious.

With “incredible payoffs” such as eventual reveal of SL and Sylvanas absolution and etc, etc with Saurfang added as a bone toss for those Horde players who do not find being a mindless goon cool.

Except it's the Saurfang storyline that was the intended spark of Blizzard genius and it's the loyalist line that they had to scramble together at the last second when reality came crashing on them that Horde players don't necessarily like being forced to fight against their own faction for the sake of Alliance's vindication for a second time.

See I cannot agree with that. With proper execution, it would be entirely possible to end up with everyone joining together and have it make sense. They just needed a unifying villain and they needed to be as blunt with why we need to stand as one as they were with Teldrassil and Brennadam.

Nah, there'd be no way for them to deliver a proper execution for that in BfA or later when they already wrote a story where Sargeras himself came knocking and the factions were still at each other's throats.

[Nymrohd]

Nah, there'd be no way for them to deliver a proper execution for that in BfA or later when they already wrote a story where Sargeras himself came knocking and the factions were still at each other's throats.

It's all a matter of what story you are telling. Legion did not really tell a story of a demon invasion after the pre-expansion events. Really, most of the invasion was confined at the mission table. And once we got in the Broken Isles the Legion just lost every step of the way.
For me BfA should have ended with the Horde besieging Stormwind and at the end we end up at the harbor (again), N'zoth attacks (or sends something big to attack), Sylvanas yeets and we have to stand together to fend him off or we are all dead. Then we get a proper Black Empire xpac where N'zoth's forces fuck shit up. So imagine Brennadam only this time it's the Black Empire doing it to civilians from both sides. And then just create multiple cases were you have e.g. an orc looking at Aqir monsters killing dwarven children and having to choose if they will withdraw or save the kids. Just go with that storyline again and again. Have a couple of heroes from either side sacrifice themselves to save civilians from the opposing faction (Saurfang could die to save some Draenei or Night Elves).

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This is one thing I find ridiculous that it was never actually exploited in the plot and story of BfA. How in the fuck do they present a pitch for an expansion that boils down to "they just discovered magic plutonium dredged up from a dying planet" and fail to exploit that opportunity? The threat of mutually-assured destruction compounded with excavation efforts that could exacerbate the uncontrollable bleeding of your planet would be a pretty powerful existential threat that would add a great deal of drama and tension to the ongoing global war.

I think the Old Gods should've stayed behind the curtain for the entirety of the expansion—they could've further inflamed the preexisting tensions and let the war carry itself. It would've been nice to continue the buildup through BfA instead of shoving two or three expansions into one. The primary story could've been a grayscale war of survival, with Magni serving as the planet's Lorax and a conscientious objector while the Old Gods schemed in the background and occasionally popped up to make sure things keep going the way they want them to. The war itself could've been more than enough for people to get themselves immersed in the expansion, and playing up the existential threat of Azerite would've made it feel far more like both sides were justified. Combine that with a preemptive, but arguably very justifiable, Alliance first strike, and you'd have something pretty strong.

Oh a proper faction war xpac could easily have been done but that was not the intent was it? The fact is, the population of the game doesn't really lend for two factions anymore so they had to do away with them.

[Engal]

Just engages discussion with the NPC in the trade area of Valdrakken. You'd see many interfaction discussion about the war and stuff and exchanging opinion and experiences. They are coming to term with it and horde and alliance members are forging new relationship and understanding

It's been like this since the end of BFA, shadowlands, and the two years span after SL up until now.

[Rozz]

I don't think there needs to be.

There are already neutral factions , PCs act as neutral heroes/mercenaries for the main story, everyone is pretty okay with each other save for problem children that drag everyone else into war, etc.

It's something that should've been a thing ages ago.

[Le Conceptuel]

The entire expansion's story was garbage specifically because of this one failure in my eyes. I was so fucking hyped when the cinematic released. "FOR THE HORDE!" and "FOR THE ALLIANCE!" like we could really pick a side and treat the other as the villain. I was so convinced, like they wanted us to be, that Sylvanas was going to have a Houjin-styled REAL reason to burn Teldrassil, and the playerbase could pick a side and argue it justifiably in good fun from either direction. Like the tree was corrupted again and the Alliance was resistant to cull the corruption, or literally anything beyond "undead Hitler is lying to us and just wants to kill as many people as possible, so we're going to Find Ourselves and join the Alliance... again".

I think that having it be something like Sylvanas having some secretly-benign motive for burning Teldrassil wouldn't work—I think she still works best as a villain, and what would be better is to avoid giving the whole Horde the villain bat. My own idea of what should've happened is as follows:

The Alliance makes a preemptive strike on Silithus after realizing the danger of allowing the Horde to have Azerite. Tyrande and Turalyon are both fairly hawkish and both would have witnessed exactly what a Titan's blood can do through their experiences with the Well of Eternity and Argunite respectively, so they'd probably lead the charge or push for the attack. They may even conduct it without Anduin's express approval, or somehow sideline him—one possibility I considered is that Turalyon could've exercised his right as Supreme Commander to challenge Anduin's authority and render the High King position moot, with a narrow vote removing Stormwind from the head of the Alliance and investing total authority in him. Alternatively, support for a preemptive strike could be strong enough that Anduin's hands are tied by default and he just can't do anything about it even in his capacity as High King. This would work well because it would allow the Alliance to be the aggressors for the first time since Warcraft III, but it would still feel fairly justifiable from the Alliance's perspective, especially since Sylvanas is definitely unstable enough that she couldn't be trusted with Azerite. I think leaning into Sylvie's original post-Edge of Night motive of thanatophobia would be a smart idea, as it would allow her to slip and become more dangerous without having to bring in an entity like the Jailer to justify it. The only strict cost of that is that Sylvanas would have to die, but I think that's an acceptable cost to avoid defiling the entire faction dynamic.

In response to the attack on Silithus and tacit declaration of war by the Alliance, the Horde undertakes to expunge the Alliance from the continent of Kalimdor entirely. Obviously, Ashenvale is the largest and most important target, so the Horde attacks the Alliance there first. The War of Thorns happens between the Kaldorei and Horde, and the Horde rather rapidly push the Kaldorei out of the mainland. However, resistance is incredibly strong and the Horde find that it's harder to hold the territory than it was to claim it—a campaign of guerilla warfare on the part of the Kaldorei leads the Horde to desperate measures, so they eventually sweep through the heavily-defended holdout of Darkshore to eventually reach Teldrassil. Hoping to force a Kaldorei surrender, Sylvanas authorizes a firebombing of Teldrassil. However, the use of Azerite-laced bombs from Bat Riders or Gunships prompts disaster, as the bombs react with Azerite that had been hastily collected from Silithus during the invasion, causing Teldrassil to catch fire. Sylvanas is horrified, but not for moral reasons—originally, she wanted to lead an open-and-shut campaign to drive the Alliance out of Kalimdor so that she could use the ocean as a buffer zone until she could extract enough Azerite to make a credible threat to ensure that the Alliance would have to pull out of the continent entirely and allow her to continue her operations unimpeded. Instead, by burning Teldrassil, she has now inexorably angered the Alliance, who will stop at nothing to take revenge for the terrible loss they've suffered, and she's the one who they'll be after in specific. This not only drives her further into desperation for survival, but also causes some friction within the Horde—her dishonorable tactics, even discounting the unintended consequences, have put a target on her head within her own faction, and the knives are already out as different contenders are all looking at the office of Warchief. Ideally, this would culminate in Geya'rah supplanting her, but a returning Thrall could also be a contender. Not wanting to start another schism in the Horde, much less during a war with such existential stakes, the Horde leaders convene to plot Sylvanas' murder and use her as a scapegoat. Ultimately, the alternative circumstances under which Teldrassil would be burned would allow for the Horde to still feel justified about it, as the blame goes to Sylvanas alone and the genocide itself was a result of a mistake rather than intention, but it's still enough of a shock for the Alliance that they'd also feel wholly justified in pursuing vengeance.

Finally, the attack on Undercity proceeds when the Alliance chooses to retaliate—unable to mount an offensive on the now-secured continent of Kalimdor, and with the Kaldorei and Gilneas both salivating over Sylvanas' head, the Alliance chooses to attack Undercity. Rather than Sylvanas gassing her own city as part of the plan from the get-go, she flees the scene without a trap, and instead the Alliance strikes deep into Undercity until the RAS gasses the city on their own initiative. This causes many more casualties for the Alliance, but also makes it feel more like a legitimate victory on their part because they weren't just walking into a trap from the get-go. It also allows for the Horde to feel more like Lordaeron was lost to the Alliance, thereby fostering more hate towards the Alliance that would feel a tad more justifiable under those circumstances. Putting the Apothecary Society in the spotlight could also be used to set Faranell up as a more interesting successor to Sylvanas, allowing the Forsaken to stay up to their old tricks and maintain their identity after her removal.

I think this would be a very good start to a better version of BfA, yet would require very minimal alteration to the original plot.

[VladlTutushkin]

Anduin's spores spread have finally spread across all faction territories. Rather obvious.




Except it's the Saurfang storyline that was the intended spark of Blizzard genius and it's the loyalist line that they had to scramble together at the last second when reality came crashing on them that Horde players don't necessarily like being forced to fight against their own faction for the sake of Alliance's vindication for a second time.




Nah, there'd be no way for them to deliver a proper execution for that in BfA or later when they already wrote a story where Sargeras himself came knocking and the factions were still at each other's throats.

Well if Blizzard had to scramble for anything maybe they should have scrambled some more and make an Alliance story for BfA that was remotely interesting or exciting, cause being Azeroth’s #1 cucks again and “letting go” of genocide was a bit much and somewhat of a repetition of Alliances VEVERY OTHER CONFLICT with the Horde aside from Second War.

As i said - it was plot that shouldnt have existed to begin with because it had zero redeeming qualities or potential.

[Nymrohd]

*SNIP*

They could have showed what happened in the prequel novel in game to justify the Alliance being the aggressor. If the people of Stormwind learned that Sylvanas murdered the last of the Menethil line, it would cause waves. I still think it could be simplified though; have Alliance attack Undercity first and keep Sylvanas' burning Teldrassil intentional and have Tyrande be the one who captures Saurfang when Sylvanas leaves him to finish of Malfurion. Show the Horde leaders meeting and have her make it clear that with Tyrande and Malfurion together, Teldrassil could weather a siege of ages and would be useless as a bargaining chip.

[shise]

The game went donwhill at massively increase speed since BfA... This is just a cheap, easy adndesperate wayto "fix" issues, because the new organization at "Blizzard" does not want to invest any more time (money) into fixing issues on the game.
It is much better to focus on selling services, cosmetics and gold than making the game good.

It that simple. Lore has not mattered for a while now.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

For guilds to be private versions of factions they would need lore that references them as such, and that lore doesn’t exist any where to my knowledge or seemingly any one else’s.

There just a gameplay thing.

You really need lore to establish the concept of guilds? It's pretty self evident. Venture Company? It's a guild, even if an evil one. Steamwheedle Cartel to. Hey, all the goblin cartels are guilds.

It's just so weird to need a deep lore dive on such a thing. And I'm more flabbergasted than anything, I just never considered that people might question the canonicity of guilds themselves, yanno?

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That kind of got turned on its head when the Horde and its players openly participated in a warcrime and then fought a war to defend the warchief and her cabal that masterminded it.
After legion I definitely saw why there would be a unification after BFA... nothing has made sense.

Yesh, the Horde and Alliance themselves reverted to a more hostile situation, but all the class halls remained neutral, showcasing how they exists separate from the Horde/Alliance dichotomy. While many members of the orders were members of said factions, leadership remains neutral.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You really need lore to establish the concept of guilds? It's pretty self evident. Venture Company? It's a guild, even if an evil one. Steamwheedle Cartel to. Hey, all the goblin cartels are guilds.

It's just so weird to need a deep lore dive on such a thing. And I'm more flabbergasted than anything, I just never considered that people might question the canonicity of guilds themselves, yanno?

Yes you need lore other wise it’s just fan head canon.

Cartels to my knowledge are never referred to at guilds nor is any thing else other then the mansion guilds so that would just be head canon.

[Toho]

Yesh, the Horde and Alliance themselves reverted to a more hostile situation, but all the class halls remained neutral, showcasing how they exists separate from the Horde/Alliance dichotomy. While many members of the orders were members of said factions, leadership remains neutral.

Not really the Druid order hall characters joined the Alliance in Darkshore warfront and the Paladin order hall minus Liadrin was on the Alliance side in Arathi warfront.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not really the Druid order hall characters joined the Alliance in Darkshore warfront and the Paladin order hall minus Liadrin was on the Alliance side in Arathi warfront.

The Cenarion Circle as an organization weren’t involved in the BFA war the bulk of them went to heal the sword wound in Silithus.

the Leader of the circle obviously was a part but I don’t think Malf ever made a call for the circle to get involved so any members there were doing it as night elfs not as circle members just like Malf does.

Though it is also important to note that the circle it self sides with the night elfs after the war being the only horde members allowed in night elf lands.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yes you need lore other wise it’s just fan head canon.

Cartels to my knowledge are never referred to at guilds nor is any thing else other then the mansion guilds so that would just be head canon.

It just feel very pedantic when the concept of "organizations" is well cemented in WoW lmao.

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Not really the Druid order hall characters joined the Alliance in Darkshore warfront and the Paladin order hall minus Liadrin was on the Alliance side in Arathi warfront.

But the Cenarion Circle itself didn't join the War, just members of it that were part of the alliance too. The organization itself remains neutral.

The Silver Hand tho? Yeah, they do feel like they went back to the alliance.

But that's just one out of 12.

[Itisamuh]

Hard disagree here. I'm all for Guilds existing as their own "factions", but the Horde vs Alliance war is like.... having a favorite football team in my eyes. It's fun to pick a side. For the Horde!

I can understand that, and would even agree if they bothered to make the factions different enough to justify it, like the Republic and Empire on Star Wars. The Republic is all about freedom and working together, even if their leaders are often corrupt or useless, with their Jedi defenders, while the Empire is all about taking over the galaxy, using the "might is right" ideology for the Sith ruling all. Obviously, those factions have very different ideals and goals, making the war between them easily justifiable. Red vs Blue makes sense here.

But the inherent differences that existed between the Alliance and Horde in Vanilla (Alliance being the stereotypical good guy races, Horde being good sects of traditionally evil races that are impossible to trust due to their history) ended the moment the Alliance accepted Death Knights into their ranks. If they can accept Death Knights, why not the Forsaken? Then that was followed up with Worgen, Dark Iron Dwarves, Void Elves (I mean come on, seriously? Void Elves are literally Blood Elves that rejected the Light in favor of Old God corruption, but the "for the Light" Alliance accepted them, after rejecting Blood Elves? What?) and Demon Hunters (sure, the Night Elves would reject Blood Elves in general for their supposed sins, but not Demon Hunters, which were effectively their biggest cultural nightmare. That would totally happen.) Meanwhile the Horde is getting miniature foxes; not exactly the picture of evil incarnate there.

Plus, every time the Horde flirts with becoming the Empire equivalent to Warcraft, with Garrosh and Sylvanas respectively, we end up being forced to join the Alliance in a coup against them. Only to go back to fighting as soon as that leader is gone, for literally no reason, even though there are endless neutral options (the zillions of factions, all the class orders, etc) to prove that the vast bulk of characters could not care less about their repetitive and pointless squabble.

When you add the incompetent writing of the faction war to the impractical aspects of dividing the player base in a video game, it is simply not worth it.

[Nadiru]

Yes yes i know Alliance/Horde players with certain heroes have temporarily united for a raids at least once or twice every expansion.

But a fully fledged cross faction guild functionality is huge departure from that, now its official that guilds and Azeroth "Champions" are now united.
Coming off of BFA this is a huge stretch without the necessary lore building blocks.

Even Blizzard doesn't pretend that everything is squared off and boxes ticked so... whats the story? Why are the faction restrictions being removed storywise? What happened for this monumental change? What diplomatic or threat forced this union?

Go do the Waking Shores questlines again, and pay close attention to what happens in Wingrest Embassy. Dragonflight's whole campaign involves coordination between the Horde and Alliance to explore these strange new lands.

[Stormwolf64]

As if you need that in this now hogwash game. Nothing mattes anymore. They've got no plan, no reason, just going as they want. Fine of course, but with no planning it feels artificial. Don't expect anything about this to make sense. But in the senselessness of it all, this will bring a good change for a slowly dying behemoth.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It just feel very pedantic when the concept of "organizations" is well cemented in WoW lmao.

I mean a workers union and the military are both "organizations" but obviously no one would treat them the same and in the case of wow the only guild we actually have to go off of is the former and even beyond that organizations of "hero" tier characters are also pretty much none canon outside of the horde/alliance as a whole if chronicles is any thing to go off of where pretty much every big boss kill is organized by the alliance/horde military and not a group of mercs.