geting insta declined for keys ive already timed

[Ealyssa]

too many people coming in here that seem to be a bit out of touch with reality by repeatedly regurgitating "2500 is garbage player".

Except literally nobody said that...

You're the one never doing PUG by your own admission that is out of touch if anything. The reality of things is that, sure 2k5 can be the upper echelon of the average wow player. But it doesn't matter for what we are talking here. It's still very low when you want to easily PUG +20, that's the important part : the context. What you seams not being able to grasp here.

Sure you can keep telling 2k5 is a very good score as long and as often as you want. But it doesn't matter to the reality of what those player are experiencing. And the fact here is that nobody will take a 2k5 player they don't know in a 20+.

You can be your city's tennis champion, and sure technically be in the best 10% of humans who every played tennis. Congratulation, but that won't make you be invited to an ATP tournament for free. That's not how real life works.

[Jester Joe]

Except literally nobody said that...

For someone who has in their signature berating people for 5 second searches, you sure are making sweeping statements without rechecking anything.

Thing is: you don't get accepted into 20s with scrub ass rating like 2500. No matter how long you try.

2500 is hilariously low right now.

Starting a group for a 20+ key and having 800 people who are 2800+ queue means you will never get looked at ever.

Push your own key and get better score.

Your argument about context is actual trash because you're trying to assume their intentions. YOU do not determine what other people mean, full stop.

Especially when in cases like Lahis, when I pushed the topic the response wasn't "well it's good overall, just not for what you're competing against", the response was "no it's still bad".

There's more than enough posters in here who openly said that 2500 is good, just there's better.
And that's a fine argument, but don't put your blinders on and pretend no one was saying it's a bad rating. Because your excuse of context to put people down isn't the magical shield you think it is.

And hell, even WITHIN context it still doesn't make it a bad score. Having better options doesn't immediately make the other trash, so when you come in claiming "that's a trash rating compared to" that's still inherently false, it's just not as good. I get the internet loves to deal with extreme black and white arguments, but it's kinda funny to me that you straight up fell right into exactly what I said the issue is, people having some weird belief of "if you're not first you're last" and you're like "NO ONE IS SAYING THAT, BUT" and proceed to basically continue saying the same "if you're not first you're last". Because, ya know, like I already said 2500 is the range people should be pushing into 20s. It's not "very low", it's just not overqualified.

[

Putting someone down because your rating is bigger than theirs is very petty and calling someone garbage just because of their rating is absolutely stupid, but there is merit to the claim: most people at that rating, while being better at the game than others, certainly aren't great because at the 2500 rating gear is doing most of the lifting. So many people play half of their class (no defensives/utility), take millions of avoidable damage and have no clue what they do wrong, sometimes even going as far as blaming tank/healer for their death. Being 2500 makes you a good player for keys below, but doesn't make you good for their level of keys - they are exactly average for that key level range and they are not the greatest for the key levels above.

Kudos to anyone who reaches KSM/KSH tho, everyone was at some point a player who was weren't that good. In fact for most of my WoW gaming life I had been absolutely terrible at the game an only when I realised how bad I was I got better and better every season.

2500 is the key range for 20 though, that's kinda my point.

I can fully accept that it's not going to have the top 1% expert players, but you don't need that to time 20s. If someone can time a 18-19, they only need a bit more effort to time a 20. Or admittedly to possibly reroll/wait for a fix (*cries in ret paladin*). The difficulty increase last I checked is linear, not exponential, and while since thresholds do become undoable or at least far harder for some classes, if the player is capable of getting up to a 19, then they can do a 20 with time. Definitely not saying they can jump into a higher range than that, like a 22 and up, but it's not like doing 2500 is only a range of 16 keys timed. It's around the 18-19 with some untimed 20s that lands you in the range of 2500.

Again, when pugging I can see why someone would take a 2800 player instead especially since the leader could very well be that 2500 player trying to get their 20s timed, which leads to an aggressive slope I'd say of everyone trying desperately to take the overqualified to ensure their key is done.

[Ealyssa]

For someone who has in their signature berating people for 5 second searches, you sure are making sweeping statements without rechecking anything.

ad hominem instead of arguing the topic...

You can argue what you want. Facts are people with 2k5 aren't taken in 20+, period. You can pretend any fairy tales you want, fact remains.

[kenn9530]

Except literally nobody said that...

You're the one never doing PUG by your own admission that is out of touch if anything. The reality of things is that, sure 2k5 can be the upper echelon of the average wow player. But it doesn't matter for what we are talking here. It's still very low when you want to easily PUG +20, that's the important part : the context. What you seams not being able to grasp here.

Sure you can keep telling 2k5 is a very good score as long and as often as you want. But it doesn't matter to the reality of what those player are experiencing. And the fact here is that nobody will take a 2k5 player they don't know in a 20+.

You can be your city's tennis champion, and sure technically be in the best 10% of humans who every played tennis. Congratulation, but that won't make you be invited to an ATP tournament for free. That's not how real life works.

2500 is a good score not every player wants to waste time by pushing keys just for score, pugging is the main issue in WoW thats why group content is always best done in groups. Many realm first raiders dont waste time pushing keys and some will not even bother with completing 20 keys at all.

[Ealyssa]

2500 is a good score

Yes, it is. But that's not the point of this thread...

The thread is about someone with 2500 score that is denied entry in the 20s he wants to go in by PUGs. And people are rightfully telling him that, while yes 2k5 is a great score you're great at the game, it's not that high for easily be taken in groups by other people who don't know you.

It's all about perspective.

[thunderdragon2]

Yes, it is. But that's not the point of this thread...

The thread is about someone with 2500 score that is denied entry in the 20s he wants to go in by PUGs. And people are rightfully telling him that, while yes 2k5 is a great score you're great at the game, it's not that high for easily be taken in groups by other people who don't know you.

It's all about perspective.

guess its tim for me to stop being nice to pug, tho i already insta decline Russians, and monks (this 1s mostly due to numerous bad experiences wiht the class) i guess its 2700+ for my grps for now on, how's that for a taste of perspective? if people just want to be carried thats fine but it gad dam well time i got carried also.

tho sadly that still wont stop life from happening....

[Lahis]

Many realm first raiders dont waste time pushing keys and some will not even bother with completing 20 keys at all.

They will bother completing 20s. 20s are mandatory for high end raiders because the weekly gear they give is much better than majority of the raid loot.

[brynhildrprot]

Yes, it is. But that's not the point of this thread...

The thread is about someone with 2500 score that is denied entry in the 20s he wants to go in by PUGs. And people are rightfully telling him that, while yes 2k5 is a great score you're great at the game, it's not that high for easily be taken in groups by other people who don't know you.

It's all about perspective.

Idk 2500 might be top 10% but many people dont even do all 8 dungeons both weeks so that is inflated.

2500 might be actually 50% Median of people who actually actively play the game

[Inoculate]

Might be a language barrier, I guess we don't fundamentally talk about the same thing.

Gatekeeping = getting declined in pugland for a +20 when you did not have done a +20 before. If you think this is a problem that needs to change for pugs you can be that change by running your own key and invite only people key-1. You now have the chance to convince 4 others to do the same.

If you think this approach is futile and don't think the community can be changed maybe it's time to ask yourself why this kind of gatekeeping is happening in the first place. My answer to that is that people expect to time their key and obviously invite the best possible candidate of which there are many as you would see if you ever put up your key.

You aren't being declined in 90% of the situations, the group filled and it auto declines the rest that sign up. Make a group and look at how many sign up once you have a tank and healer.

[Delekii]

Idk 2500 might be top 10% but many people dont even do all 8 dungeons both weeks so that is inflated.

2500 might be actually 50% Median of people who actually actively play the game

You are completely insane if you actually believe this.

[kenn9530]

They will bother completing 20s. 20s are mandatory for high end raiders because the weekly gear they give is much better than majority of the raid loot.

They are not mandatory at all, the raids were cleared in less than 410 ilvl gear, one piece of gear from a weekly doesnt help much at all, most mythic raiders do the min they can do, the raid gear is simple better than most of what mythic plus offers.

[Jester Joe]

ad hominem instead of arguing the topic...

You can argue what you want. Facts are people with 2k5 aren't taken in 20+, period. You can pretend any fairy tales you want, fact remains.

That isn't an ad hominem, because ya know, you had to cut out literally every single point that I actually gave you just to claim "AD HOMINEM!!" and strawman on top of that. Oh and also ignoring an argument just to claim a fallacy is another logical fallacy.

It's really weird to claim "no one said that!" and when it's pointed out that people did in fact say that, you instead completely make up a statement that I never said once just to argue that instead. Because ya know, I said extensively several times even in the very post you quoted that I fully understand people are always going to grab the overqualified instead.

[Lahis]

They are not mandatory at all, the raids were cleared in less than 410 ilvl gear, one piece of gear from a weekly doesnt help much at all, most mythic raiders do the min they can do, the raid gear is simple better than most of what mythic plus offers.

Over half of the bosses give below 421 loot. Sans the trinket from council and ring from Eranog, raid loot from the first half of the raid loses to 421 Vault loot. M+ track on Vault is also the only way to get 421 for some of the tier pieces.

[Tech614]

They will bother completing 20s. 20s are mandatory for high end raiders because the weekly gear they give is much better than majority of the raid loot.

What are you smoking? Raid loot/vault absolutely shits on M+ loot/vault. Once you kill brood there on mythic there is little point to ever filling M+ vault slots unless you really have nothing better to do, no alts to work on or anything. The people spamming 20s with 2800 rating are mostly M+ andys not high end raiders.

[Jester Joe]

Idk 2500 might be top 10% but many people dont even do all 8 dungeons both weeks so that is inflated.

2500 might be actually 50% Median of people who actually actively play the game

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-df-1/us

Top 10% in NA is 2450ish, and 2550ish in EU, just for clarity.

And you can check Wowhead to see how many active accounts have KSH.

[kenn9530]

Over half of the bosses give below 421 loot. Sans the trinket from council and ring from Eranog, raid loot from the first half of the raid loses to 421 Vault loot. M+ track on Vault is also the only way to get 421 for some of the tier pieces.

What are you on about there is only 1 tier piece that drops below 421 and you can upgrade raid gear into it, the content will also be cleared before the 2nd weekly chest has even been opened, half of the raid bosses drop 421 or higher, the first 4 bosses also drop the 421 important items but the hc versions are more than adequate and still better than most mythic plus items, ilvl doesnt always mean its the best.

[Tonkaden]

First time playing WoW? This has literally happened ever since achievements and gearscore became a thing which is one reason why WoW pugging is a cesspool.
The magical WoW community where being fully capable of doing the content is not enough. For almost all groups you are required to be way way over it.

It happened well before that as well. If we needed to pick up someone in original, we inspected gear. If someone had blue dungeon gear we wouldnt bring them to BWL with us, even if they were guildies lol.

I dunno why OP is surprised that he isnt getting invites when he isnt qualified as much as other folks.

[brynhildrprot]

You are completely insane if you actually believe this.

Of ppl who actively play the game yes thats completely reasonable.

- - - Updated - - -

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-df-1/us

Top 10% in NA is 2450ish, and 2550ish in EU, just for clarity.

And you can check Wowhead to see how many active accounts have KSH.

Active as in people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME.

Please dont factor ppl who picked up Dragonflight for 5 weeks, did 5 +8s and quit the game bc they got what they wanted out of the expansion.

Yes if you factor that in, maybe. But if you actually count the playerbase that actively plays M+ then it's about the Median I'd say.

If you count people who do at least lets say 5 keys a week and have been actively playing since release at least half of them are 2500.

I'd say most people who want to play M+ who I know and are invested in the activity that I know end up reaching 3k this season. No premading needed, no super tryharding,just playing a few hours a week and trying a few keys and they get 3k eventually.

[Jester Joe]

Of ppl who actively play the game yes thats completely reasonable.

- - - Updated - - -



Active as in people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME.

Please dont factor ppl who picked up Dragonflight for 5 weeks, did 5 +8s and quit the game bc they got what they wanted out of the expansion.

Yes if you factor that in, maybe. But if you actually count the playerbase that actively plays M+ then it's about the Median I'd say.

If you count people who do at least lets say 5 keys a week and have been actively playing since release at least half of them are 2500.

I'd say most people who want to play M+ who I know and are invested in the activity that I know end up reaching 3k this season. No premading needed, no super tryharding,just playing a few hours a week and trying a few keys and they get 3k eventually.

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...ero-season-one

That's the closest you're going to get to active accounts since as far as I know, which was what I mentioned, ignoring that and claiming hypotheticals isn't going to counter any actual statistics.

[brynhildrprot]

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...ero-season-one

That's the closest you're going to get to active accounts since as far as I know, which was what I mentioned, ignoring that and claiming hypotheticals isn't going to counter any actual statistics.

Okay but you're wrong we are talking about the people who are actively engaging in the game and 2500 is certainly not the top 10% of ppl that might sign to any given key at any given key level.

There are drones of ppl in the 2800-3000 bracket