Former Blizzard Leaders Start Magic Soup Games Studio

[Ragedaug]

Ha! Hahahaha! So "you people" being people advocating for hiring and listening to more than straight white males? Yes, clearly people trying to help minorities and women actually have a say in our society rather than the world revolving around a single demographic, we are the destructive ones. Thanks for the laughs, mate.

I'm for hiring the best qualified people. If they are all black women, that's who I would hire. I'm not going to hire a white man who's less qualified than a black female for the purpose of being "more diverse". So I'm not sure what your counter argument here is. Are you suggesting companies should hire less qualified people for the purpose of being more diverse?

[The Stormbringer]

I'm for hiring the best qualified people. If they are all black women, that's who I would hire. I'm not going to hire a white man who's less qualified than a black female for the purpose of being "more diverse". So I'm not sure what your counter argument here is. Are you suggesting companies should hire less qualified people for the purpose of being more diverse?

No, I'm suggesting that diversity itself is a qualification. More people from different backgrounds, with different life experiences, who perhaps lived in different countries, speak different languages, and have gone through entirely different paths in life can then offer that up in turn to the company, giving them a much wider pool of knowledge, life experience, and so on to draw from.

If you have twenty white dudes who all came from middle class backgrounds, have played games since they were kids, went to a university for their degree, and then graduated and wound up in this job, the pool of experience you can draw on from them is all very limited due to how similar it is. However, when you suddenly throw in a handful of people from vastly different backgrounds, your pool of experience grows.

As a company, having individuals from varied backgrounds, with different skillsets and experiences, is a massive benefit.

EDIT: Here, I'll give you an example. Small video game company, mostly people from one background. They are told to make a game about [insert person from completely different background here]. They are going to make that game to the best of their ability, their skills are not in question, however their knowledge and experience are. How exactly are they supposed to write what it's like to be that person if they've never experienced anything like it before?

We can look at it from another angle. Let's say you want to appeal to a wider demographic, but all your people are only from a single demographic. How do you know what to do in order to draw in that bigger crowd? How can your people relate to the wider demographic if no one has experience in it? The answer is simple: hire people from the demographic you want to appeal to.

[Ragedaug]

No, I'm suggesting that diversity itself is a qualification. More people from different backgrounds, with different life experiences, who perhaps lived in different countries, speak different languages, and have gone through entirely different paths in life can then offer that up in turn to the company, giving them a much wider pool of knowledge, life experience, and so on to draw from.

If you have twenty white dudes who all came from middle class backgrounds, have played games since they were kids, went to a university for their degree, and then graduated and wound up in this job, the pool of experience you can draw on from them is all very limited due to how similar it is. However, when you suddenly throw in a handful of people from vastly different backgrounds, your pool of experience grows.

If you have two equally qualified candidates to fill a specific job that your company has, that I completely understand hiring the person that has potential to give your company more perspectives. But I don't understand the argument that says "he comes from a different country, so even though he's less qualified, he'll be a better graphical designer for us".

The other thing that stands out in your responses is that literally no one is saying "companies should all hire only white men". What people are saying is that company should hire the most qualified people. The reason that stands out is your response to, "hire the best people" is "you shouldn't hire only white men". Your side seems to be the only side saying that white men are the most qualified people.

[Zenfoldor]

You think I would ever play a game by J. Allen Brack? Wow.

[The Stormbringer]

If you have two equally qualified candidates to fill a specific job that your company has, that I completely understand hiring the person that has potential to give your company more perspectives. But I don't understand the argument that says "he comes from a different country, so even though he's less qualified, he'll be a better graphical designer for us".

The other thing that stands out in your responses is that literally no one is saying "companies should all hire only white men". What people are saying is that company should hire the most qualified people. The reason that stands out is your response to, "hire the best people" is "you shouldn't hire only white men". Your side seems to be the only side saying that white men are the most qualified people.

No, my side is saying that white men are the most common demographic out there. They're also statistically more likely to be ones interested in gaming and game design, which makes it a lot harder to find diverse group of people to help round out your company.

You said "two equally qualified candidates" and THEN you added in the additional perspectives. That's not the right way to go about measuring the value of diversity. You have to look beyond the on-paper qualifications for what makes a person valuable to your company, as I described in my previous post. You have to weigh diversity itself as if it was a qualification added to their list of other qualifications. Hell, that diversity can even be being a white guy if the group already there has a lack of white guys (unlikely but entirely possible).

[vincink]

No, my side is saying that white men are the most common demographic out there. They're also statistically more likely to be ones interested in gaming and game design, which makes it a lot harder to find diverse group of people to help round out your company.

You said "two equally qualified candidates" and THEN you added in the additional perspectives. That's not the right way to go about measuring the value of diversity. You have to look beyond the on-paper qualifications for what makes a person valuable to your company, as I described in my previous post. You have to weigh diversity itself as if it was a qualification added to their list of other qualifications. Hell, that diversity can even be being a white guy if the group already there has a lack of white guys (unlikely but entirely possible).

If I understand you correctly, you're arguing for companies to force diversity to be a valuable trait in the hiring process, correct?

[Relapses]

If I understand you correctly, you're arguing for companies to force diversity to be a valuable trait in the hiring process, correct?

It's not being "forced," it's simply understanding that diversity is more than just something that you have on your resume. This does not necessarily mean quotas, though that is unfortunately how it often gets framed by detractors of DE&I. I've worked in HR and can tell you from personal experience that any HR manager worth their weight understands that quotas result in terrible candidates both in practice and conceptually. What DE&I means when applied to the hiring process is that in an effort to increase diverse candidates, these companies will try to get the message out that they're hiring to people who may not traditionally have been interested in a job in that field. As @The Stormbringer said, this exceptionally relevant for video game development due to the extreme feedback loop of straight white males playing games and then seeking to become developers themselves.

[Zenfoldor]

Ha! Hahahaha! So "you people" being people advocating for hiring and listening to more than straight white males? Yes, clearly people trying to help minorities and women actually have a say in our society rather than the world revolving around a single demographic, we are the destructive ones. Thanks for the laughs, mate.

Is the intended goal to "help minorities and women" or to improve games by increasing the amount of diversity in gaming? Serious question, because sometimes these may run contrary to each other.

Let's say a development company was completely female. Should one lobby for a male to be hired in order to increase the diversity of the development team so that the team can see a different point of view?

[The Stormbringer]

Is the intended goal to "help minorities and women" or to improve games by increasing the amount of diversity in gaming? Serious question, because sometimes these may run contrary to each other.

Let's say a development company was completely female. Should one lobby for a male to be hired in order to increase the diversity of the development team so that the team can see a different point of view?

I would say unless the intention of the company is to be completely female and cater only to a female demographic, yeah, hiring a male to increase the diversity and thus add another point of view would be a benefit.

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It's not being "forced," it's simply understanding that diversity is more than just something that you have on your resume. This does not necessarily mean quotas, though that is unfortunately how it often gets framed by detractors of DE&I. I've worked in HR and can tell you from personal experience that any HR manager worth their weight understands that quotas result in terrible candidates both in practice and conceptually. What DE&I means when applied to the hiring process is that in an effort to increase diverse candidates, these companies will try to get the message out that they're hiring to people who may not traditionally have been interested in a job in that field. As @The Stormbringer said, this exceptionally relevant for video game development due to the extreme feedback loop of straight white males playing games and then seeking to become developers themselves.

Yes, this. Thank you for explaining it better than I had, Relapses.

[Zenfoldor]

I would say unless the intention of the company is to be completely female and cater only to a female demographic, yeah, hiring a male to increase the diversity and thus add another point of view would be a benefit.

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Yes, this. Thank you for explaining it better than I had, Relapses.

That's fair I think. Thanks for answering.

[mbit2]

I would say unless the intention of the company is to be completely female and cater only to a female demographic, yeah, hiring a male to increase the diversity and thus add another point of view would be a benefit.

You realize that the idea of one dude speaking for all men is hilarious? What he represents is his personal preferences.
If you want to know a demographic you need statistics not a single person you declare the delegate for millions.

[Sylv_]

Mythic Quest.

[vincink]

It's not being "forced," it's simply understanding that diversity is more than just something that you have on your resume. This does not necessarily mean quotas, though that is unfortunately how it often gets framed by detractors of DE&I. I've worked in HR and can tell you from personal experience that any HR manager worth their weight understands that quotas result in terrible candidates both in practice and conceptually. What DE&I means when applied to the hiring process is that in an effort to increase diverse candidates, these companies will try to get the message out that they're hiring to people who may not traditionally have been interested in a job in that field. As @The Stormbringer said, this exceptionally relevant for video game development due to the extreme feedback loop of straight white males playing games and then seeking to become developers themselves.

Does the average gamer care about that?

[The Stormbringer]

You realize that the idea of one dude speaking for all men is hilarious? What he represents is his personal preferences.
If you want to know a demographic you need statistics not a single person you declare the delegate for millions.

Then... hire more? You don't have to stop with one, nor did I say you should. Just... keep hiring until you think you're in a good place for your needs as a company. It does, however, demonstrably add to the pool of experiences available to the company by hiring him. Are you saying that because we can't hire for every demographic, we shouldn't bother trying?

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Does the average gamer care about that?

It's not about the average gamer, it's about the gaming companies that clearly want to have wider demographics so they can sell more product.

[vincink]

It's not about the average gamer, it's about the gaming companies that clearly want to have wider demographics so they can sell more product.

How does a game studio know that it is or isn't already hitting a wide demographic? How "wide" is wide enough? Can studio choose to target a narrower demographic, say older gamers or non-gamers or men or women or Christians or atheists or any other demographic?

[The Stormbringer]

How does a game studio know that it is or isn't already hitting a wide demographic? How "wide" is wide enough? Can studio choose to target a narrower demographic, say older gamers or non-gamers or men or women or Christians or atheists or any other demographic?

How do they know? Do I look like an analyst for these companies? They have their own methods for measuring player metrics, ask them, I'm sure they'll tell you... or they'll keep it a company secret. As to what is "wide enough", that's entirely up to the company. If the company wants to cater to a specific demographic, then they absolutely can. I'm not saying they HAVE to do it.

However you'll find that with these larger companies, they typically want as many people buying and playing their games as possible. They don't play favorites because they don't care. And if they want that wider demographic, then diversity is a key method for reaching it.

[mbit2]

Then... hire more? You don't have to stop with one, nor did I say you should. Just... keep hiring until you think you're in a good place for your needs as a company. It does, however, demonstrably add to the pool of experiences available to the company by hiring him. Are you saying that because we can't hire for every demographic, we shouldn't bother trying?

Im saying the idea is bound to fail in itself because you start with "i have no clue what other people are thinking" and then hire some token people to tell you what to think which remains a small sample size of unknown quality since you don't know how representative they are. Meanwhile you can just buy statistics covering vastly higher sample sizes completely invalidating your token hires opinion. The simplest gap is men age 40+ ranting about making games with mature modern design while the games are aiming at 12+. Obviously you won't hire 12 year old so the whole just hire representation fails flat. The only viable strategy is market research not listening to boomer opinions on what kids want.

[Ragedaug]

It's not about the average gamer, it's about the gaming companies that clearly want to have wider demographics so they can sell more product.

I would agree it's a worthy goal to increase your target demographic. The problem I often see is that those efforts go sideways as companies tend to alienate their current (often loyal) audience in order to attempt to gather new customers.

Every time my bosses get too focused on metrics, I remind them that if we focus on the client first and foremost, all the supporting metrics will fall in line.

Focusing on creating something that people want to buy is still a better recipe for creating a strong company versus focusing on hiring folks based on their immutable characteristics on the chance that their lived experience produces a superior product that we hope someone will want.

My 2 cents anyway.

[The Stormbringer]

Im saying the idea is bound to fail in itself because you start with "i have no clue what other people are thinking" and then hire some token people to tell you what to think which remains a small sample size of unknown quality since you don't know how representative they are. Meanwhile you can just buy statistics covering vastly higher sample sizes completely invalidating your token hires opinion. The simplest gap is men age 40+ ranting about making games with mature modern design while the games are aiming at 12+. Obviously you won't hire 12 year old so the whole just hire representation fails flat. The only viable strategy is market research not listening to boomer opinions on what kids want.

How is market research going to tell you what it's like to be a Middle-Eastern woman? Or a South African man? Or any of a thousand other perspectives? Market research can only go so far. However I will partially agree with you and say that hiring people from wider demographics isn't necessarily enough to properly reach said demographics. Combining it with market research (as you mentioned) and working with historians, archivists, or interviewers can take you that much closer to getting what you want, which in this case is a product that can better represent and reach larger groups of customers.

[vincink]

How do they know? Do I look like an analyst for these companies? They have their own methods for measuring player metrics, ask them, I'm sure they'll tell you... or they'll keep it a company secret. As to what is "wide enough", that's entirely up to the company. If the company wants to cater to a specific demographic, then they absolutely can. I'm not saying they HAVE to do it.

However you'll find that with these larger companies, they typically want as many people buying and playing their games as possible. They don't play favorites because they don't care. And if they want that wider demographic, then diversity is a key method for reaching it.

What you are asking for has already been standard practice for decades: companies choosing what demographics they want to sell, and who they hire to make their products, and having the autonomy to do so without legal or social recourse. Of late, though, the forcing of DEI+ESG+SDGs has actually reduced that autonomy.