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  1. #61
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verissaugh View Post
    Are you saying force ppl into voice-chat? Or can you explain what you mean more?
    I'm saying that if you need the level of coordination that Val is talking about, you should probably be on voice chat.

  2. #62
    Elemental Lord
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    No,

    They sort of had them in the past, there were DPS specs that didn't do enough damage on their own to warrant their spot but raised the rest of the raids damage so it evened out, there were heal specs that made up for their lack of HPS, etc.

    Blizz scrapped it years ago and started tuning the game to "try" and get every spec that did the same role to be within a certain % of each other.

    A shame TBH as one of my fondest memories about playing an Arms warrior in TBC was when you logged Ventrilo and the Rogues/Hunters were legit excited you were coming to the raid (to boost their DPS) xD

  3. #63
    God, I hope not

  4. #64
    Nope. The player base largely rejected the concept in Vanilla

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Thraenduil View Post
    As it is said in different ways before on this threat, the problem is wow- community. You see, they are very "fair" people. They want all players treated "equally" and no one is allowed to stand above others(in logs).
    If support specs came to be, they would have to have different single target- buffs in addition to group- buffs. The very idea of single target- buff is "unfair" since it gives one player in a group an advantage over others if it can't be casted many times in succession over short duration to cover whole group.
    Unless players learn to sometimes give way to each other for greater good(i.e completing dungeon/raid), support specs won't have a place in the game.
    Yeah, seeing the "controversy" around power infusion proves that well enough. If a singular targetted buff ability is enough to make WoW players have a Reddit Moment:tm:, imagine an entire class based around improving the performance of their allies

  6. #66
    Bloodsail Admiral kosajk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    Evoker is getting a support spec next patch so ya.

    Also I think some specs could be changed over to support roles such as enhancement, discipline, maybe survival.
    enh gives windfury, enough is enough
    i like doing dps :P

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  7. #67
    I think the big problem is how would gear work for it?
    like does stacking int allow the support class to give bigger buffs? Haste make them give more buffs faster? Crit makes them allow to give SUPER BUFFS? Man that seems all well and good but that would also mean any halfway decent raiding group would prioritize buffing the support class because buffing the support (in order to make them good) is an overall HUGE buff to the rest of the raid. If a lets say Bard in quest greens gives the entire raids damage dealers 5% extra damage and a fully BIS one can give them like 30% extra....I would think Buffing the Bard would be priority number 1 and the rest of the raid might not like that.

  8. #68
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thraenduil View Post
    As it is said in different ways before on this threat, the problem is wow- community. You see, they are very "fair" people. They want all players treated "equally" and no one is allowed to stand above others(in logs).
    If support specs came to be, they would have to have different single target- buffs in addition to group- buffs. The very idea of single target- buff is "unfair" since it gives one player in a group an advantage over others if it can't be casted many times in succession over short duration to cover whole group.
    Unless players learn to sometimes give way to each other for greater good(i.e completing dungeon/raid), support specs won't have a place in the game.
    Uh... What is PI then? Because that shit can be toxic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    From my vantage point, it seems that the only balancing required would be to tune the difficulty of raids to compensate for groups putting out more DPS, HPS, and mitigation.
    Still missing the finer details of my point: scaling balance.

    Ok we can confirm that from your replies that you want support class/specs to be a fourth pillar added to the original holy trinity of Tank, DPS and Heals - which is fine if you want to start from that basis.

    But the scaling balance issue remains. In a 5 (or 6) man, a support class/spec must buff the party's DPS by X amount. That's the whole point of the class. However, if X remains the same, then consider how much of an impact that support class brings to a raid group which is double (if not more) the size especially when it comes to a power multiplier of DPS.

    Here's another example: Let's say that a support class/spec in a 5 (or 6) person party gives roughly a 20% DPS buff over the course of the instance. So 1 DPS = 1.2 DPS thus 3 DPS = 3.6 DPS worth of damage. Now take that same 20% and apply it to a raid that has double the DPS slots, 6 DPS = 7.2 DPS. Instead of providing a group with 0.6 extra DPS, now the support is providing 1.2 extra DPS. Double the raid size again and now it's 2.4 extra DPS.

    That extra DPS screws up the balancing (think back when we had both 10M and 25M raiding and difficulties between the two).

    Additionally, that doesn't even begin to address the questions that come up if MULTIPLE support class/specs are in the party/raid.




    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Perhaps it is time for a change?
    Again missing the forest for the trees - AT WHAT COST though. Think about it, your "shakeup" requires more than just adding a support class/spec to the game. You're talking about an entire overhaul of end-game content. Fundamental systems like LFD/LFR/Group finder would also have to be changed to accommodate the addition - especially if support is going to be a mandatory pillar to the original trinity.

    While it's not impossible to do, it would probably be easier to create a new game (call it NextGen WoW) than to add to the existing one considering the amount of fundamental changes to the core gameplay that would be necessary
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Possibly....

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    Buff the group, debuff enemies, spot DPS/Healing when available, keep Healers topped off mana-wise, crowd-control, etc.

    I could see it be an interesting role if properly utilized.
    Hmmmm i am not convinced, but i suppose we'll see if they implement it like that.
    Even if i do not see the desire nor potential for it that doesn't mean it shouldn't be given a genuine try if they want to implement it.
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  10. #70
    It creates far too many issues.

    If you make it a 'mandatory' role, you've just created a new healer/tank issue.

    IF you make it an optional role, it'll probably just be abandoned in favor of existing roles (see 'support' specs in vanilla).

    Also FF doesnt really have support specs. It has dps jobs with slightly lower DPS but counter it by bringing some extra utility that helps buff dps or survivability. "pure" dps in it have next to no utility at all, meaning you'd have to gut existing dps specs to make this work. Helps that most FF content is also rather easy.

    As already cited, Power Infusion is already an example of a support ability that the community went insane over.

  11. #71
    Aren't healers.. "Support" ?

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    It creates far too many issues.

    If you make it a 'mandatory' role, you've just created a new healer/tank issue.

    IF you make it an optional role, it'll probably just be abandoned in favor of existing roles (see 'support' specs in vanilla).

    Also FF doesnt really have support specs. It has dps jobs with slightly lower DPS but counter it by bringing some extra utility that helps buff dps or survivability. "pure" dps in it have next to no utility at all, meaning you'd have to gut existing dps specs to make this work. Helps that most FF content is also rather easy.

    As already cited, Power Infusion is already an example of a support ability that the community went insane over.
    Yeah, i can recall EQ support classes were pretty much based around a single roll, like cc'ing enemies. Which like you said if it's mandatory then people will have to play it else it won't be played at all.

    Say you make a class that's all about buffing allies or debuffing enemies. The increased damage they provide, for balance, would have to be equivalent to a regular dps. But then their abilities to do damage or heal would be gimped or ineffective. That class will be able to survive in the world questing or pvping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    It creates far too many issues.

    If you make it a 'mandatory' role, you've just created a new healer/tank issue.

    IF you make it an optional role, it'll probably just be abandoned in favor of existing roles (see 'support' specs in vanilla).

    Also FF doesnt really have support specs. It has dps jobs with slightly lower DPS but counter it by bringing some extra utility that helps buff dps or survivability. "pure" dps in it have next to no utility at all, meaning you'd have to gut existing dps specs to make this work. Helps that most FF content is also rather easy.

    As already cited, Power Infusion is already an example of a support ability that the community went insane over.
    Not to mention things like Innervate, curse of elements, faerie fire, sunder, blood lust, etc. Plenty of abilities that seem "mandatory"

  13. #73
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    It's not going to happen. Ever.

    At least, not unless Blizzard removes at least 90% of all support abilities from the other classes, which means debuffs such as slows, stuns, roots and healing reduction, and buffs, both short-duration (like Power Infusion) and long-duration (like Arcane Intellect) would be gone from the tank/healer/dps specs so that this new support spec can actually support.

    Because the way things are now, all classes are 'support' in some way or another. Even rogues, with their stuns, saps and healing debuff attacks.
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  14. #74
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Still missing the finer details of my point: scaling balance.

    Ok we can confirm that from your replies that you want support class/specs to be a fourth pillar added to the original holy trinity of Tank, DPS and Heals - which is fine if you want to start from that basis.

    But the scaling balance issue remains. In a 5 (or 6) man, a support class/spec must buff the party's DPS by X amount. That's the whole point of the class. However, if X remains the same, then consider how much of an impact that support class brings to a raid group which is double (if not more) the size especially when it comes to a power multiplier of DPS.

    Here's another example: Let's say that a support class/spec in a 5 (or 6) person party gives roughly a 20% DPS buff over the course of the instance. So 1 DPS = 1.2 DPS thus 3 DPS = 3.6 DPS worth of damage. Now take that same 20% and apply it to a raid that has double the DPS slots, 6 DPS = 7.2 DPS. Instead of providing a group with 0.6 extra DPS, now the support is providing 1.2 extra DPS. Double the raid size again and now it's 2.4 extra DPS.

    That extra DPS screws up the balancing (think back when we had both 10M and 25M raiding and difficulties between the two).

    Additionally, that doesn't even begin to address the questions that come up if MULTIPLE support class/specs are in the party/raid.
    Again, wouldn't the extra DPS simply be accounted for via tuning the instance or raid for the increased output of the group? Like if the players are putting out too much damage, simply adjust the numbers so that they're not doing too much damage. It's no different than when you're raid testing and a class is just blowing the meters; You adjust their damage/healing numbers to bring them in line to the raid.





    Again missing the forest for the trees - AT WHAT COST though. Think about it, your "shakeup" requires more than just adding a support class/spec to the game. You're talking about an entire overhaul of end-game content. Fundamental systems like LFD/LFR/Group finder would also have to be changed to accommodate the addition - especially if support is going to be a mandatory pillar to the original trinity.

    While it's not impossible to do, it would probably be easier to create a new game (call it NextGen WoW) than to add to the existing one considering the amount of fundamental changes to the core gameplay that would be necessary
    Wouldn't you simply add a new option on LFD/LFR/Group Finder? Wouldn't you simply increase or adjust the size of groups? I simply don't see this as some huge, game breaking problem. At the end of the day, the only thing this role would be doing is upping DPS and HPS and mitigation.

    The payoff? More complexity and depth in WoW group play, more options for class specializations, and more potential players drawn to the new role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    If you make it a 'mandatory' role, you've just created a new healer/tank issue.
    I don't think that can be helped honestly, unless you just make everyone DPS.

    That said, it would have to be a mandatory role, like Healing and Tanking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not going to happen. Ever.

    At least, not unless Blizzard removes at least 90% of all support abilities from the other classes, which means debuffs such as slows, stuns, roots and healing reduction, and buffs, both short-duration (like Power Infusion) and long-duration (like Arcane Intellect) would be gone from the tank/healer/dps specs so that this new support spec can actually support.

    Because the way things are now, all classes are 'support' in some way or another. Even rogues, with their stuns, saps and healing debuff attacks.
    You don't have to remove support abilities from existing classes, you just have to make the support abilities offered by the support spec VASTLY superior to what non-support specs are offering.

    It's no different than non-healers having healing abilities, non-tanks having mitigation abilities, and non-DPS having damage abilities. They can all do it, but they can't do it as well as the spec dedicated to that role can.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Here's another example: Let's say that a support class/spec in a 5 (or 6) person party gives roughly a 20% DPS buff over the course of the instance. So 1 DPS = 1.2 DPS thus 3 DPS = 3.6 DPS worth of damage. Now take that same 20% and apply it to a raid that has double the DPS slots, 6 DPS = 7.2 DPS. Instead of providing a group with 0.6 extra DPS, now the support is providing 1.2 extra DPS. Double the raid size again and now it's 2.4 extra DPS.
    This has already been solved. You just limit the number of players that can be affected by a support spec's buffs. In FFXI, a support spec can only affect members of their own party (6 players), even though 3 parties (18 players) can form an alliance to raid. Therefore, if you wanted everyone to have a support role's buffs, you would bring three support roles, one for every party. Similarly, in GW2, a support build's buffs only affect members of their own squad (5 players), even though 2 squads can form a 10 man group to raid. So if you wanted everyone to have the alacrity buff, you would bring 2 alacrity buffers. A common PUG raid comp in GW2 is to have 4 buffers (2 alacrity buffers and 2 quickness buffers, since Alacrity (reduces ability cooldowns) and Quickness (gives you more autoattacks and faster ability cast times) are so powerful, though every raid boss in the game can be easily beaten without alacrity or quickness.

  16. #76
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't have to remove support abilities from existing classes, you just have to make the support abilities offered by the support spec VASTLY superior to what non-support specs are offering.
    Examples? Because the reason those abilities have the exact level of power that they have is because they're balanced. To not only make them stronger, but also make a class (or spec) just chock-full of those overpowered buffs is just, well, OP. For example: why bring a shaman for their windfury totem and heroism, if the support class not only can do that, but can do it better? Their ability to grant extra auto-attacks procs more often, and their heroism ability grants players 60% haste instead of the usual 40% that the current classes have? Etc, etc, again and again, for every buff and debuff.

    It's no different than non-healers having healing abilities,
    Because they're either self-heals (such as classes without a healing spec such as warriors) or just spillover from their healing specs (such as paladins and monks). Not to mention a retribution paladin is not going to be acting as a healer, or tank.

    non-tanks having mitigation abilities, and non-DPS having damage abilities.
    Because solo play is also part of the game, especially during leveling, so they need those to be able to not die and actually be able to kill something without hours of auto-attacking, respectively.
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  17. #77
    Why are people calling DPS a DD ? it shows that they haven't raided in a while so take their feedback with grain of salt

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Yeah that's pretty much what I expected.
    Wow has stuns and interrupts which cover a chunk of that, we also have some support abilities like bloodlust or power infusion which are quite restricted since throughput is something players care a lot about in this game

    Wow doesn't deal with debuffs as much as it could, I'd like to see defensive debuffs added to more classes that reduce incoming damage but that is mostly seen as a tank thing and more passive tank mitigation isn't really something the game needs a lot more of.

    Like I said in my post though blizz could add more support gameplay to dps specs
    The new kinds of debuffs idea is interesting...however I kinda only see it working in M+ where clearing trash packs is a huge deal. In raids, bosses are usually immune to all CC and the moment you change that you create a "bring the class not the player" problem; and if you spread debuffs to other classes/specs for raid, the support class/spec becomes too redundant.

    The M+ scene potentially creates opportunities where choosing 2 dps + 1 support for better mob control vs 3 dps for faster timer completion is a meaningful choice. Though, unfortunately, WoW has this thing where the cutting edge elite players/streamers have an immense amount of influence on community perception. If a support spec has no chance to be an optimal choice for some groups, the'll be less popular than Survival Hunters.

  19. #79
    It would work just fine assuming you get equivalent-ish feedback from the things you do the same way a dps/*tank*/healer would which also needs to be visible to everyone, as in, a dps would have numbers go up, combat would last less, adds and stuff would disappear, you can sometimes skip mechanics etc.

  20. #80
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Examples? Because the reason those abilities have the exact level of power that they have is because they're balanced.
    Well Heroism/Bloodlust would be an example. I would relegate that particular ability to only the support specs. Symbiosis, Windfury Totem (OG version), Tremor Totem, Source of Magic, Spirit Link, and Power Infusion would be other examples. I would move those types of abilities over to support specs, and replace the abilities in DPS, Healing, and Tank specs with more DPS, Heal, and tank abilities effectively. They should also get very limited support abilities. For example, a DPS Shaman could get Magma Totem which would increase their personal DPS, but a Support Shaman would get Flamtongue Totem that would increase the DPS of the group.


    To not only make them stronger, but also make a class (or spec) just chock-full of those overpowered buffs is just, well, OP. For example: why bring a shaman for their windfury totem and heroism, if the support class not only can do that, but can do it better? Their ability to grant extra auto-attacks procs more often, and their heroism ability grants players 60% haste instead of the usual 40% that the current classes have? Etc, etc, again and again, for every buff and debuff.
    TBF, Shaman should have a support spec.

    Because they're either self-heals (such as classes without a healing spec such as warriors) or just spillover from their healing specs (such as paladins and monks). Not to mention a retribution paladin is not going to be acting as a healer, or tank.
    But Blizzard could reduce the power of such buffs to only effect the caster in non-support specs, and be full power in support specs. Healers could have somewhat stronger support abilities, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful as the support spec.

    Because solo play is also part of the game, especially during leveling, so they need those to be able to not die and actually be able to kill something without hours of auto-attacking, respectively.
    Weaker support skills can still keep you alive. Shaman for example don't really need heroism/bloodlust for soloing.

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