Willow cancelled after one season by disney +.

[Fabinas]

Just curious, would you happen to have examples of shows or movies with lesbian kisses that you felt fit in and wasn't woke? Just to get an idea of how you feel this would be different from a non-woke scene that was well integrated.

Lesbian Kiss in the end of RoS.

The kiss had nothing to do with the story, nor it was between important characters. The scene was hot just to show there are lesbians in SW universe. No shit, Sherlock. Probably there's also interspecies sex as well.

And to add insult to injury, was cut in China version for known reasons. This proves it was there to tick the box.

Obviously didn't need that scene to think RoS was shit. It was another "oh, they did that as well, bleh".

I would accept a lesbian kiss between Kylo and Rey, had Kylo been a lady in that movie. There was a reason for the characters kissing. Lil' corny, but justified. Culmination of a connection building though 3 movies.

[Zodiark]

I love all the cries of "woke!" from the usual arseholes.



lol


lol 2.0

Imagine having your opinions fed to you by shitty YouTubers.

Just need someone to post a Critical Drinker link now.

Edit: Oops, someone just did Wankers are nothing if not predictable.

Bro these guys are on point. I sometimes disagree with Critical Drinker and Nerd but not often. Look at the shitshow of Black Widow, Rings of Power, Willow, The Wheel of time. You just want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. If you like being spoon fed woke trash and have virtue signaling garbage fed to you on a plate each time you try and watch a new show then your part of the problem.

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Don't worry, disney is eager to stop the systemic injustices except when they censor black people on posters for china, but you don't see those people complaining about it, hence fake activists of twitter and why the word was being perverted in mdoern days.

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Now that you mention, this shit rly looks like it was written by AI

this is the only thing that explain that random modern texas woman coming out of fucking nowhere.

Yeah totally right. There is no original creative thought process anymore. No RISKS. Because you better believe if a company lays out 250 mil they WANT the highest chance of a return on their investment and nowadays that's too much money to chance on idk a real human being writing good lore-respecting stories.

[s_bushido]

Bro these guys are on point. I sometimes disagree with Critical Drinker and Nerd but not often. Look at the shitshow of Black Widow, Rings of Power, Willow, The Wheel of time. You just want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. If you like being spoon fed woke trash and have virtue signaling garbage fed to you on a plate each time you try and watch a new show then your part of the problem.

Please. The people who unironically say meaningless nonsense like "woke garbage" can't even demonstrate that there IS a problem to begin with. Beyond their petulant whining that they're forced to endure looking at characters that belong to the "wrong" demographic groups.

I am a bit curious to know what the problem with Black Widow was...beyond the obvious "the cast was primarily women." It was just a mediocre and forgettable comic book movie. Because I'm sure that's something that's never been made before and will never be made ever again once we rid the world of "woke garbage."

[shane brannigan]

quick tangent, what was the last animated movie Disney made? And I don't mean Pixar they stuff I mean like Hercules and the Aladdin.

[Calfredd]

quick tangent, what was the last animated movie Disney made? And I don't mean Pixar they stuff I mean like Hercules and the Aladdin.

So last movie that wasn't "Disney and Pixar" or last movie that was 2d animation? If you meant the first, Strange World released November 2022 but if you mean the latter then Winnie the Pooh in July 2011.

[Syegfryed]

There's nothing in Willow that wasn't included "organically" in the story, in this respect.

Nothing in that shit story was organically

They tried to do magic and monsters in a modern california era with modern gen z teens, doing modern genz teens things, totally forgetting the medieval context they were in

like the royal family retardly going to fighting the 4 invaders while the guard is fucking around, or the texas woman in the woods single handling the royal knight who was empowered by dark magic, just to show YEAH GIRLBOSSS moment. LMAO very organic

This show was definitely written by AI

[shane brannigan]

So last movie that wasn't "Disney and Pixar" or last movie that was 2d animation? If you meant the first, Strange World released November 2022 but if you mean the latter then Winnie the Pooh in July 2011.

So they haven't made an actual Disney movie since 2011. Tragic.
If they go back to 2d animation without culture war subtext BS I will treat that shit like gen-z treated 'rise of gru'. I will organise a watch party for everyone I know IRL and treat that shit with the proper pomp and circumstance it deserves. I'm talking like going to a world primer kind of venue not just a vue.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah totally right. There is no original creative thought process anymore. No RISKS. Because you better believe if a company lays out 250 mil they WANT the highest chance of a return on their investment and nowadays that's too much money to chance on idk a real human being writing good lore-respecting stories.

They definetly took risks, the risk was doing a show pure by AI, with modern genz shenanigans, for modern teens to watch

of course it failed hard.

[s_bushido]

quick tangent, what was the last animated movie Disney made? And I don't mean Pixar they stuff I mean like Hercules and the Aladdin.

/shrug. The only Disney branded movies I hear about anymore are those godawful live-action remakes. I assume all their good ideas go through Pixar or some shit.

[MrLachyG]

I dunno, I watched the reboot and didnt enjoy it but not because of the women. Just was boring and the bad guy had nothing memorable about them. AL was okay but also very one dimensional. I'd put them about equal because the 2016 one had a few parts of decent humor while AL was more serious.

Can't compare a scifi drama to a scifi comedy. Just isn't fair even if from the same source material. I don't think it's also fair to think everyone who hated on the 2016 is a man child but the poster you were responding to...well i can't defend them.

couldn't agree more. you could've had 4 of the funniest male comedic actors and the movie still would've been shit. the best actors can't turn bad writing into gold, no matter who they are. as for the gender issue, look at Ghostbusters Afterlife. you could argue that Phoebe Spangler was the main character for that one, yet it was deemed a success (or way more of a success than the 2016 version)

[Calfredd]

So they haven't made an actual Disney movie since 2011. Tragic.
If they go back to 2d animation without culture war subtext BS I will treat that shit like gen-z treated 'rise of gru'. I will organise a watch party for everyone I know IRL and treat that shit with the proper pomp and circumstance it deserves. I'm talking like going to a world primer kind of venue not just a vue.

Sorry I think I worded that weirdly. The last CGI Disney movie from Walt Disney Animation Studios is Strange World in November 2022 and the last 2d movie from Walt Disney Animation Studios was 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._feature_films

[shane brannigan]

Sorry I think I worded that weirdly. The last CGI Disney movie from Walt Disney Animation Studios is Strange World in November 2022 and the last 2d movie from Walt Disney Animation Studios was 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._feature_films

I understood. I just kind of want Disney to making Disney style movies.

They've been over using their bought IP's for too long, and Disney Pixar movies don't fill the void left by 2d animated movies.

[RampageBW1]

How many babies were stolen from stupid Daikinis? if < 1, then I can totally see this series flopping.

[Triceron]

There's nothing in Willow that wasn't included "organically" in the story, in this respect. If you can handle magic and monsters existing but the idea of two girls being romantically interested in each other is too much for you, the problem isn't with the media you're consuming.

You could use that excuse for anything though.

You could defend any unnatural part of a story just by saying 'it's fantasy, it doesn't need to make sense'. Not really a good argument there.

[Endus]

You could use that excuse for anything though.

You could defend any unnatural part of a story just by saying 'it's fantasy, it doesn't need to make sense'. Not really a good argument there.

Magic doesn't make sense. What matters is if the show/book is consistent with itself. Not to any real-world arbitrary standard, like "medieval europe". That's not an expectation for fantasy, not unless the creators make that choice, and if they're not lining up in some ways, they clearly don't.

And in this case, women being able to handle themselves in a fight, or two women having romantic interest in each other, neither of those are even fantastical, let alone "not making sense". If you've got a problem with either, you're the one with a problem, not the material.

And to repeat how I started; I'm not actually arguing this show was great. I thought it had some interesting ideas but the whole was a bit roughly thrown together, IMO. Like, it got weirdly classist; the original Willow's about a regular dude (Willow), a rogue (Madmartigan), a couple brownies (can't remember their names), and Sorsha, who's very much slumming it with the rest. Here, we've got a prince and princess, her best friend and bodyguard who's about to join an elite warrior group, the servant who's actually secretly the Empress but doesn't know it yet and has crazy magic, and another Prince who's also got magic. And Willow, who's not living much better than before but is highly respected by his community at least. It's lost the grime of the original, and that was a big plus of it in my eyes; everyone who "matters" here already "mattered" or is about to be the most important person in the world. I think giving Graydon magic was just a "what the fuck do we do with this guy" move by the writers, and could've been done better, especially when the point was supposed to be there were no sorcerors left but Willow but the party has Willow and accidentally two more.

Those kinds of issues? Fine. That's to do with consistency with the original or its own internal rhetoric. Bitching about two girls kissing? Stuff your prejudice.

[Mace]

Another in a long line of properties that studios have been throwing at the wall to try to get them to stick. There is no love and effort behind many of these projects and the final outcome shows it.

Sadly this is QFT --- because it's a machine and a paycheque to many of them, and the people who hire them. IT's really the company - if it just wants to make money, it doesn't realise you need to put people who actually care of these things in charge, - but maybe they are also being fooled by activists /shrug .. who care far more for the messaging than the tale, so come in with all the right soundbites that fit the current rhetoric, and get hired instead of the people who genuinely care for the product/franchise rather than the messaging, and write accordingly - except get rejected because their writing doesn't have the write messaging.

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Magic doesn't make sense. What matters is if the show/book is consistent with itself. Not to any real-world arbitrary standard, like "medieval europe". That's not an expectation for fantasy, not unless the creators make that choice, and if they're not lining up in some ways, they clearly don't.

And in this case, women being able to handle themselves in a fight, or two women having romantic interest in each other, neither of those are even fantastical, let alone "not making sense". If you've got a problem with either, you're the one with a problem, not the material.

And to repeat how I started; I'm not actually arguing this show was great. I thought it had some interesting ideas but the whole was a bit roughly thrown together, IMO. Like, it got weirdly classist; the original Willow's about a regular dude (Willow), a rogue (Madmartigan), a couple brownies (can't remember their names), and Sorsha, who's very much slumming it with the rest. Here, we've got a prince and princess, her best friend and bodyguard who's about to join an elite warrior group, the servant who's actually secretly the Empress but doesn't know it yet and has crazy magic, and another Prince who's also got magic. And Willow, who's not living much better than before but is highly respected by his community at least. It's lost the grime of the original, and that was a big plus of it in my eyes; everyone who "matters" here already "mattered" or is about to be the most important person in the world. I think giving Graydon magic was just a "what the fuck do we do with this guy" move by the writers, and could've been done better, especially when the point was supposed to be there were no sorcerors left but Willow but the party has Willow and accidentally two more.

Those kinds of issues? Fine. That's to do with consistency with the original or its own internal rhetoric. Bitching about two girls kissing? Stuff your prejudice.

Roughly thrown together, that sounds about right, like trying to fit bits and pieces together, or rather, get this in and that in for the soundbytes, or because this is what we want people to see cos we think it will either sell or get the right publicity, rather than actually this makes natural sense, would resonate with people in a realistic manner, entertain and even inspire them because it's a good story.

[Dystemper]

Sadly this is QFT --- because it's a machine and a paycheque to many of them, and the people who hire them. IT's really the company - if it just wants to make money, it doesn't realise you need to put people who actually care of these things in charge, - but maybe they are also being fooled by activists /shrug .. who care far more for the messaging than the tale, so come in with all the right soundbites that fit the current rhetoric, and get hired instead of the people who genuinely care for the product/franchise rather than the messaging, and write accordingly - except get rejected because their writing doesn't have the write messaging.

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Roughly thrown together, that sounds about right, like trying to fit bits and pieces together, or rather, get this in and that in for the soundbytes, or because this is what we want people to see cos we think it will either sell or get the right publicity, rather than actually this makes natural sense, would resonate with people in a realistic manner, entertain and even inspire them because it's a good story.

It doesn't help that these studios are only hiring writers who have almost no experience who can not create , just adapt and change. Disney along with others seem afraid to create anything brand new.

This is why the "Woke" Hollywood is failing. No new creations, just adapting existing ones then immediately scream ist and phobe when criticized. Let's take a beloved franchise and adapt ut for the "Modern audiences" = failure

[Triceron]

Magic doesn't make sense. What matters is if the show/book is consistent with itself.

Which is my point. Verisimilitude and realism are two different things, so just saying 'if you don't believe X you shouldn't think Y is ridiculous' is not a good argument.

Magic works, because it is suspension of disbelief and a part of how the world works. I wouldn't use that to support any other argument regarding the show. Like if someone felt the Jaime Lannister ending was not believable or out of place, do we just tell them 'you believe in magic but not his character still being in love with his sister'? No. It's two different things. Magic and Dragons has nothing to do with what people perceive about his character. It's not a good argument.

Those kinds of issues? Fine. That's to do with consistency with the original or its own internal rhetoric. Bitching about two girls kissing? Stuff your prejudice.

I never had a problem with that in the show, but if people feel it inconsistent or out of place they're free to feel that way and express that. Not everything is discrimination.

[exochaft]

You could use that excuse for anything though.

You could defend any unnatural part of a story just by saying 'it's fantasy, it doesn't need to make sense'. Not really a good argument there.

That's just sophism, saying a story/narrative/in-world mechanics/etc. doesn't need to make sense because it's fantasy. Another version of this is "it's just for kids!", it's the same fallacy. You can have fantasy and 'kids' content that is structurally sound in story/mechanics and very entertaining... it's just quite often we get lazy creators who won't put the work in, motivated by things (money, agenda, notoriety, etc.) as a higher priority than the content itself.

Without devolving into a massive post going over this subject, such arguments are usually a cope-out when either the critic doesn't think their own arguments through or know they have a losing argument. Part of achieving verisimilitude in content that is fantastical is that you make sure as much of it appears grounded in rules and logic that the creator establishes, and make sure you do not stray from or break your rules, even if such rules and logic don't exist in our world. This doesn't mean you can't obscure some rules or leave them up to interpretation depending upon the circumstance (this is how you get hard magic and soft magic concepts), but if you stray too far from what would seem logical or make sense you will lose your audience.

When it comes to what is considered "woke"... well, depends on what your definition is. If we want to leave the term aside and analyze the content itself, such as Willow, the problems were that attention to agenda and messaging was at the forefront (you can just see all the press releases and social media with the cast and creators to see that was their primary focus) instead of making the content good. As a result, the show comes off like a checklist of social/political agendas while the writing is extremely underwhelming and nonsensical, characters are all over the place and nonsensical, and pretty much the entire show lacks anything entertaining.

Now, can a show have all those negative points and lack the social/political agenda checklist? Certainly, but it comes down to primary motivation of the creators and/or what is the most prominent feature of the bad content that appears to have the most attention. Nowadays, the market is flooded with bad content where you can easily notice (whether the creators say it out loud or not) that the primary focus is using the content as a platform for their social/political agendas, and such content is probably the average definition of "woke" content. The irony is people would be WAY more receptive to the social/political agenda pandering if it was done in smart and entertaining manner, but unfortunately the correlation between people who want to espouse such agendas and people who are good content creators seems to be exceedingly rare.

There's a bunch of other correlations to be drawn, but I'll just simply leave it at this: if your primary driver in content creation is social/political agenda checklists, chances are extremely good that your content will fail because your focus is not where it should be. If your content is not entertaining and/or it doesn't make a lick of sense, no one will care about your message anyways, even if they agree with it. And you certainly aren't going to win over the hearts and minds of people who disagree with your views if you can't even reason or logic out a basic narrative that makes sense, as it kind of demonstrates that if you can't even make your story and content make sense, then maybe your views and beliefs aren't that sensical or logical either.

[Endus]

That's just sophism, saying a story/narrative/in-world mechanics/etc. doesn't need to make sense because it's fantasy. Another version of this is "it's just for kids!", it's the same fallacy. You can have fantasy and 'kids' content that is structurally sound in story/mechanics and very entertaining... it's just quite often we get lazy creators who won't put the work in, motivated by things (money, agenda, notoriety, etc.) as a higher priority than the content itself.

Without devolving into a massive post going over this subject, such arguments are usually a cope-out when either the critic doesn't think their own arguments through or know they have a losing argument. Part of achieving verisimilitude in content that is fantastical is that you make sure as much of it appears grounded in rules and logic that the creator establishes, and make sure you do not stray from or break your rules, even if such rules and logic don't exist in our world. This doesn't mean you can't obscure some rules or leave them up to interpretation depending upon the circumstance (this is how you get hard magic and soft magic concepts), but if you stray too far from what would seem logical or make sense you will lose your audience.

When it comes to what is considered "woke"... well, depends on what your definition is. If we want to leave the term aside and analyze the content itself, such as Willow, the problems were that attention to agenda and messaging was at the forefront (you can just see all the press releases and social media with the cast and creators to see that was their primary focus) instead of making the content good. As a result, the show comes off like a checklist of social/political agendas while the writing is extremely underwhelming and nonsensical, characters are all over the place and nonsensical, and pretty much the entire show lacks anything entertaining.

Now, can a show have all those negative points and lack the social/political agenda checklist? Certainly, but it comes down to primary motivation of the creators and/or what is the most prominent feature of the bad content that appears to have the most attention. Nowadays, the market is flooded with bad content where you can easily notice (whether the creators say it out loud or not) that the primary focus is using the content as a platform for their social/political agendas, and such content is probably the average definition of "woke" content. The irony is people would be WAY more receptive to the social/political agenda pandering if it was done in smart and entertaining manner, but unfortunately the correlation between people who want to espouse such agendas and people who are good content creators seems to be exceedingly rare.

There's a bunch of other correlations to be drawn, but I'll just simply leave it at this: if your primary driver in content creation is social/political agenda checklists, chances are extremely good that your content will fail because your focus is not where it should be. If your content is not entertaining and/or it doesn't make a lick of sense, no one will care about your message anyways, even if they agree with it. And you certainly aren't going to win over the hearts and minds of people who disagree with your views if you can't even reason or logic out a basic narrative that makes sense, as it kind of demonstrates that if you can't even make your story and content make sense, then maybe your views and beliefs aren't that sensical or logical either. Regardless of the conclusions inferred, the result is pretty much failure of content creation.

There is no "agenda". LGBTQ and ethnic minorities can be present in any media for the same reasons that cishet and/or white people can be. Calling their presence an "agenda" is an attack on the validity of their presence. There doesn't need to be any greater story reason or justification for their presence, just like there doesn't for anyone else.

That's what this all always boils down to; demanding a justification for non-cishet characters, where no such justification is required for the cishet. The ethnic concern is the same, it's died down a bit compared to the homophobia, but look at the bitching over the casting for the live-action Little Mermaid if you want a taste of straight racism.

Demanding justification for these characters; that is the only "agenda" in play. Otherwise, if a writer just decided to make a couple characters gay because they want them to be gay, that's totally fine and not something anyone has a valid reason to complain about. The "agenda" is just "LGBTQ people exist and can be represented in media". That's not an "agenda" at all.