The Blood Elves discussion thread

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

A personal view to how you see the Sin'dorei does not equate to it being the actual view of how and what the Sin'dorei are.

I always view the Elves as a neutral themed race, going Horde.
The Elves always had a superiority and arrogance complex and that still continues today; so even as a Quel'dorei - they held onto beliefs, themes and attitudes which I relate more with the Horde races.

[Mace]

A personal view to how you see the Sin'dorei does not equate to it being the actual view of how and what the Sin'dorei are.

I always view the Elves as a neutral themed race, going Horde.
The Elves always had a superiority and arrogance complex and that still continues today; so even as a Quel'dorei - they held onto beliefs, themes and attitudes which I relate more with the Horde races.

Again, I know the lore, this is not about the lore strictly speaking. I've explained the premise of that statement whether it is incorrect or not. I'm not disputing your lore facts, but again, it's not what I was saying.

whether you agree with me or not, you shoudl at least understand what I mean. you don't need to convince me what the lore says currently about the blood elves or the history of the high elves. Nor do you need to convince me that the blood elves are in the horde currently.

- - - Updated - - -

blood elves are not an alliance race they were an alliance race.
but I think that the customization so that the blood elves become a playable race of the alliance again is possible, they just have to add green eyes.

I'm not sure if you actually now see what I meant by that statement, I'm after understanding. In this case, understanding me, and a bunch of other people who will use the phrase I have used.

If you do, perhaps you'd see there is nothing to argue about, because no one is disputing the facts.


As for blood elves being available on the alliance too, or with green eyes, politically, those will no longer be blood elves but high elves or ren'dorei. The lore already allows for them even if customisation does not, as we know the first void elves were all blood elves, and later we see both high elves and green eyed blood elves joining the ren'dorei faction and the alliance unaltered.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It's not that it's more relevant or less, it's the context with which the statement is made it's that simple. Some people still regard horde and alliance by their original pre-TBC identities, and make reference form that basis. Perhaps because they are older, perhaps because it was the only time the two factions were truly iconic, I'm just saying that's what we mean when we say that.

No one questioned that the horde now is changed, or that blood elves are in the horde, but whether you agree with them sticking to original boundaries, or not, for better or worse, that's just what they mean.

I can't agree that what the factions once were should be held on the same level of validity than what they are now. Holistically they are far different beasts 17 years go, and saying that you just like to stick to the original boundaries of disingenuous of what things *are* now.

That's why is so frustrating to discuss with you, people mostly want to talk about how the races and groups can move forward, but you're perennially beholden to a past that's half imagined.

Do you really want to know what elven themes were *ever* part of the alliance? Rangers. Alleria and her Rangers. And in War3 we got the elven presence through 2 human organizations, The Sorceress of the Kirin Tor, and the Elven Priests that followed the Light. Neither representative of Quel'thalas as a cultural identity.

So everything that is about Quel'thalas as a Kingdom, its culture and aesthetics, that got introduced in game *after* the High Elves left the alliance. It was an identity, that under any parameter, Was never part of the Alliance .

Blood Elves aren't alliance themed, for so many more reasons, but also because those blood elven themes and aesthetics that define them now, were introduced to them AFTER they left the alliance. By your own reasoning of "faction themes", BC version of Quel'thalas, is 100% Horde themed, because they were designed to be a part of the Horde, and as such integrated many new thematic and aesthetic ideas.

So yeah, blood elves aren't alliance themed because most of what defines them culturally and aesthetically was created exclusively when they were introduced as part of the Horde.

[Mace]

I can't agree that what the factions once were should be held on the same level of validity than what they are now. Holistically they are far different beasts 17 years go, and saying that you just like to stick to the original boundaries of disingenuous of what things *are* now.

Agreed, perhaps it is disingenuous, but it is what we do. Horde and alliance today are totally different, unrecognisable mostly from what they were once. Even what faction means has changed, it's not the same thing at all.

i'd say it's a different product and has been for a while. It hcanged more slowly so people have accepted it more readily. It also doens't feel as compelling or iconic as it once did, despite lal the great iconography each of the races have - there seems to be little cohesion and cohesive binding together to produce a compelling world from the set up. So it ends up looking great, but with little depth and substance.

That's why is so frustrating to discuss with you, people mostly want to talk about how the races and groups can move forward, but you're perennially beholden to a past that's half imagined.

It isn't always, but people see thigns differnetly from one another, and this can sometimes be frustrating if common ground cannot be reached, the most we can ask for in such cases is to at least understand what the other person is saying even if we don't see it that way or disagree.

Do you really want to know what elven themes were *ever* part of the alliance? Rangers. Alleria and her Rangers. And in War3 we got the elven presence through 2 human organizations, The Sorceress of the Kirin Tor, and the Elven Priests that followed the Light. Neither representative of Quel'thalas as a cultural identity.

So everything that is about Quel'thalas as a Kingdom, its culture and aesthetics, that got introduced in game *after* the High Elves left the alliance. It was an identity, that under any parameter, Was never part of the Alliance .

Most fnas won't go into that deeply, to them, the alliance was human and look alike races, the horde was not. The alliance was medival and high fantasy civilziations, the horde was monstrous and chaoitc to the ordered and just light themes. The allinace had arcane magic, the horde had fel magic etc etc.

These were all simple distinctions that characterised hte two factions in the eyes of people who experienced it. they dind't need a manual to tell them who was on who back then, or delve into the lore of the units.

Much of that lore did not exist back then, it's only fleshed out in retrospect allowing them to paint any picture they want. Such is lore anyway.

Blood Elves aren't alliance themed, for so many more reasons, but also because those blood elven themes and aesthetics that define them now, were introduced to them AFTER they left the alliance. By your own reasoning of "faction themes", BC version of Quel'thalas, is 100% Horde themed, because they were designed to be a part of the Horde, and as such integrated many new thematic and aesthetic ideas.

So yeah, blood elves aren't alliance themed because most of what defines them culturally and aesthetically was created exclusively when they were introduced as part of the Horde.

Respectively disagree, buy the original alliance themes and what it was to many of us, blood elves are very much alliance themed. By today's presentation of the horde and alliance, you won't be able to say that, which is why I understand your point of view and I'm not arguing against it either.


And no, BC version of Quel'Thalas is not 100% horde themed at all by my reasoning in our recent conversation, by my reasoning it is 100% alliance themed, because they wanted those alliance themes on the horde, because this is what players could relate to and identify with and they feel that was what was popular about the alliance. In order to make players play the horde, they took some alliance things over. In my statements I'm approaching it from that poV

It is viewing the world in terms of two factions...something warcraft has ingrained in us, that is why we present it that way. And based on the original frame of the two. [Not saying it's the "right " way to view it, there is no right way, but I am provide a frame of reference that characterises that view so you understand what i'm saying at least / or where I'm coming form.
.
Form a purely development pov, even the horde and alliance have always been arbitrary, we can define them one way for 1 game, and change them the next. Indeed, they took on developments even within the strategy game and evolved. Why not so during the MMO? Could have done 4 or even 5 factions, but chose two instead, and changed those two to fit accordingly. The WC2 horde and the WC3 horde are different aren't they, even if much of the themes are consistent, not all of them are, things changed.
And they continue to change. I'm not denying them, I'm not denying your point either .. but wow does make a marked shift in the horde and alliance from the strategy game. a departure from that original mould. Wc3, when it introduced races did not destroy it's Horde and alliance mould from WC2, by jamming those races into them. No, they made them new factions.

WoW didn't do that, in jammed everyone into the two factions and as such what those two factions were, once again changed, at first they led the new races into the respective factions based on how close they were to that faction, but doing so changed what the factions were, and this continues significantly from TBC onwards.

[Rhlor]

Again, I know the lore, this is not about the lore strictly speaking. I've explained the premise of that statement whether it is incorrect or not. I'm not disputing your lore facts, but again, it's not what I was saying.

whether you agree with me or not, you shoudl at least understand what I mean. you don't need to convince me what the lore says currently about the blood elves or the history of the high elves. Nor do you need to convince me that the blood elves are in the horde currently.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm not sure if you actually now see what I meant by that statement, I'm after understanding. In this case, understanding me, and a bunch of other people who will use the phrase I have used.

If you do, perhaps you'd see there is nothing to argue about, because no one is disputing the facts.


As for blood elves being available on the alliance too, or with green eyes, politically, those will no longer be blood elves but high elves or ren'dorei. The lore already allows for them even if customisation does not, as we know the first void elves were all blood elves, and later we see both high elves and green eyed blood elves joining the ren'dorei faction and the alliance unaltered.

Valeera Sanguinar lived many years in Stormwind in the service of the ruling dynasty and always identified herself as a blood elf.

[Mace]

Valeera Sanguinar lived many years in Stormwind in the service of the ruling dynasty and always identified herself as a blood elf.

Yes okay, but she is aligned with the horde and the blood elves. Thankfully she is one of the few characters that show more than 1 dimensional loyalty. You mean you can be a member of the horde and loyal to it and still be friends with and actively help an alliance race or person? Such a one off
.

Such agency should be far more common imo

[Varodoc]

Yes okay, but she is aligned with the horde and the blood elves. Thankfully she is one of the few characters that show more than 1 dimension you mean you can he a member of the horde and loyal to it and still be friends with and actively help an alliance race or person? Such a one off

She is not alone in this. Mulgore leader Baine Bloodhoof and Highmountain leader Mayla are also trusted friends of Stormwind, as they could be seen in the Stormwind court in BfA 8.3 (along with Valeera).

Anduin Wrynn has always been diplomatic and charismatic, it is therefore not a surprise that several Horde members are trusted friends of the Stormwind court.

With this being said, we see many Blood elves (Thalassian elves with green eyes) in Telogrus Rift, amongst the ranks of the Ren'dorei, and this is an objective fact easily verifiable by visiting Telogrus Rift in-game.

[Rhlor]

Yes okay, but she is aligned with the horde and the blood elves. Thankfully she is one of the few characters that show more than 1 dimensional loyalty. You mean you can be a member of the horde and loyal to it and still be friends with and actively help an alliance race or person? Such a one off
.

Such agency should be far more common imo

I think she works for lorthemar because she loves quelthalas, it is understandable since now there is no longer any wrynn. although she continues to collaborate with the stormwind government

- - - Updated - - -

She is not alone in this. Mulgore leader Baine Bloodhoof and Highmountain leader Mayla are also trusted friends of Stormwind, as they could be seen in the Stormwind court in BfA 8.3 (along with Valeera).

Anduin Wrynn has always been diplomatic and charismatic, it is therefore not a surprise that several Horde members are trusted friends of the Stormwind court.

With this being said, we see many Blood elves (Thalassian elves with green eyes) in Telogrus Rift, amongst the ranks of the Ren'dorei, and this is an objective fact easily verifiable by visiting Telogrus Rift in-game.

That's why I say that green eyes are possible as a customization for void elves

[Mace]

She is not alone in this. Mulgore leader Baine Bloodhoof and Highmountain leader Mayla are also trusted friends of Stormwind, as they could be seen in the Stormwind court in BfA 8.3 (along with Valeera).

Anduin Wrynn has always been diplomatic and charismatic, it is therefore not a surprise that several Horde members are trusted friends of the Stormwind court.

With this being said, we see many Blood elves (Thalassian elves with green eyes) in Telogrus Rift, amongst the ranks of the Ren'dorei, and this is an objective fact easily verifiable by visiting Telogrus Rift in-game.

Anduin has been very pro horde too. Much to the chagrin of alliance fans. While hardcore horde fanbois mock this.

Thalyssra is the one you would have expected to be very pro alliance. But she is enamoured with white male elves and has eyes only for Lor’themar.

Valeera considers a night elf male Broll like a fsther figure. Seems to have greatly admired Logosh Varian Wyrnn and quite amicable to Anduin.

She doesn’t let the horde membership determines who she likes and fiercely loyal to her people and their choices - to her friends

[Rhlor]

Anduin has been very pro horde too. Much to the chagrin of alliance fans. While hardcore horde fanbois mock this.

Thalyssra is the one you would have expected to be very pro alliance. But she is enamoured with white male elves and has eyes only for Lor’themar.

Valeera considers a night elf male Broll like a fsther figure. Seems to have greatly admired Logosh Varian Wyrnn and quite amicable to Anduin.

She doesn’t let the horde membership determines who she likes and fiercely loyal to her people and their choices - to her friends

the night elves did not seek an alliance with the nightborne. That silvermoon and suramar be united was a logical development

[Mace]

the night elves did not seek an alliance with the nightborne. That silvermoon and suramar be united was a logical development

That’s a rather stupid reason not to be friendly with your own kin, esp your high priestess and the people who saved you out right.

Then what about the Kirin’Tor and Khad’gar? As far as we know Thalyssra only chose the horde based on invitation and would have picked the night elves if Tyrande had approached and invited them because of the bond they share.

That’s for faction membership, and the friendship is with the bloodbelved. Not with Trolls, Orcs, Tauren etc. just blood elves.

And it’s blood elves only she seems focused on. While she has helped the horde out, it’s clear it’s only blood elves she is interested. And her writers seem to have forgotten the lion share of her lore and once again raised barriers to non horde races because of no other reason than - that’s the enemy faction.

This makes you respect Valeera a lot more and whoever is writing her.

[Varodoc]

That’s a rather stupid reason not to be friendly with your own kin, esp your high priestess and the people who saved you out right.

Then what about the Kirin’Tor and Khad’gar? As far as we know Thalyssra only chose the horde based on invitation and would have picked the night elves if Tyrande had approached and invited them because of the bond they share.

That’s for faction membership, and the friendship is with the bloodbelved. Not with Trolls, Orcs, Tauren etc. just blood elves.

And it’s blood elves only she seems focused on. While she has helped the horde out, it’s clear it’s only blood elves she is interested. And her writers seem to have forgotten the lion share of her lore and once again raised barriers to non horde races because of no other reason than - that’s the enemy faction.

This makes you respect Valeera a lot more and whoever is writing her.

What are you hoping to accomplish with this? The ship sailed and sunk long ago. Thalyssra decided to join the objectively warmongering and primitive faction, led by (at the time) the objectively evil and genocidal leader.

The Nightborne didn't really do much anyway so their loss wasn't impactful to the Alliance.

[Mace]

What are you hoping to accomplish with this? The ship sailed and sunk long ago. Thalyssra decided to join the objectively warmongering and primitive faction, led by (at the time) the objectively evil and genocidal leader.

The Nightborne didn't really do much anyway so their loss wasn't impactful to the Alliance.

Must I be trying to accomplish anything? I’m just commenting, sharing my thoughts and responding to Rhlor.

I mean we often rag on blizzard’s general writing, it’s not all of a sudden taboo because it’s about Thalyssra and the Nightborne with regard to the alliance races or because it’s been a huge debate in the past.

[Rhlor]

Must I be trying to accomplish anything? I’m just commenting, sharing my thoughts and responding to Rhlor.

I mean we often rag on blizzard’s general writing, it’s not all of a sudden taboo because it’s about Thalyssra and the Nightborne with regard to the alliance races or because it’s been a huge debate in the past.

she makes it clear that she expected tyeande to seek an alliance with them but she didn't. in the end it was the blood elves who sought an alliance with the nightborne. I said it from the beginning that for me it had to be a playable alliance race but the alliance players, you between them, asked to exchange models and give nightborne to the horde and void/high elves to the alliance. that currently the nightborne and blood elves are more united it is logical they have a lot in common

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Respectively disagree, buy the original alliance themes and what it was to many of us, blood elves are very much alliance themed.

So your argument boils down to "they feel like an alliance race to me". Not much else to say that's not just repeating myself at this point.

[Grazrug]

Agreed, any portal to Shadowlands should be closed forever. Some limited interactions with Emerald Dream and Ardenweald once in a while is OK I guess, but that is all.

Kael'thas story is over now. He got his kind of redemption by realizing what he brought upon sin'dorei and being willing to pay for his sins.
The only thing I'd like to see was his meeting with Lor'themar. He could bring word of Kael's atonement to Silvermoon... It is not that much necessary though, blood elves seem be over Sunstrider legacy for some time now.

It is not over if enough players support him coming back. That's what happened with the High elf demand.

[Vaedan]

It is not over if enough players support him coming back. That's what happened with the High elf demand.

There almost zero people who ask for Kael comming back.
He was great character in WC3, who got villained in TBC which felt bad, but with Shadowlands, he got a redemption of sorts and his story reached a conclusion. There is nothing else for him. His whole story arc was about Quel'thalas downfall, Sunwell's destruction and his own pursuit of power.

It is over now. Let him rest. We may now speculate if he stays in Revendreth and become next Harvester, or if he atones for his sins and moves to the Afterlife he deserves, probably Bastion.

Blood elves, and Horde as a faction, should not dwell on past and dead characters. The faction NEEDs new compelling characters who are not one dimensional psychos and warmongers.

[Varodoc]

Must I be trying to accomplish anything? I’m just commenting, sharing my thoughts and responding to Rhlor.

I mean we often rag on blizzard’s general writing, it’s not all of a sudden taboo because it’s about Thalyssra and the Nightborne with regard to the alliance races or because it’s been a huge debate in the past.

But have you looked at the Nightborne in-game? They're so fucking ugly. In the words of Aemond Targaryen, "it was a fair exchange". We lost the Nightborne, but gained the Void elves, and I have already said everything with this simple sentence.

[Tanaria]

Must I be trying to accomplish anything? I’m just commenting, sharing my thoughts and responding to Rhlor.

I mean we often rag on blizzard’s general writing, it’s not all of a sudden taboo because it’s about Thalyssra and the Nightborne with regard to the alliance races or because it’s been a huge debate in the past.

Who cares now about what happened 5 years ago?

Horde got some variation of the Nightborne and Rudolph Tauren and Alliance got blue-berry Blood Elves and very light-obsessed space goats.

At the end of the day, Blood Elves and Night Elves are still most played out of all the Elves which is obvious considering new players have to do stuff in old content to unlock the allied races. Plus, they are the only ones who can be Demon Hunter, Druid and Paladin.

[Grazrug]

There almost zero people who ask for Kael comming back.
He was great character in WC3, who got villained in TBC which felt bad, but with Shadowlands, he got a redemption of sorts and his story reached a conclusion. There is nothing else for him. His whole story arc was about Quel'thalas downfall, Sunwell's destruction and his own pursuit of power.

It is over now. Let him rest. We may now speculate if he stays in Revendreth and become next Harvester, or if he atones for his sins and moves to the Afterlife he deserves, probably Bastion.

Blood elves, and Horde as a faction, should not dwell on past and dead characters. The faction NEEDs new compelling characters who are not one dimensional psychos and warmongers.

Kael'thas was neither a psycho nor a war monger. He was greatly misused in TBC and his story didn't make any sense since it was a total heel turn. He deserves better. And not Bob who is just a ranger guy with no powers.

- - - Updated - - -

But have you looked at the Nightborne in-game? They're so fucking ugly. In the words of Aemond Targaryen, "it was a fair exchange". We lost the Nightborne, but gained the Void elves, and I have already said everything with this simple sentence.

Yes fans want the NPC versions of them which actually look great. The models used by Thalyssra and Valtrois.