Was Harry Potter clever?

[Mace]

Hogwarts Legacy has inspired another read through the books

I use to think that Harry was just brawn and courage while Hermione was the real brains.

But on another read through, I've realised Harry actually is a lot cleverer than I thought. There are many times he figures things out, comes out with ideas that are actually quite incredible that Hermione never came up with. Makes some astute observations and deductions that denote very high intelligence, and cracks some difficult puzzles no one else can do purely on intuition and cleverness rather than knowledge..

Some of it is nothing short of genius. It's just that the narrative never says it out loud. You dont hear people commenting on how clever Harry is, but actually he does a lot of brilliant things .

It's knowledge he didnt have much of compared to Hermione, not intelligence capacity or quotient. His grades that arent that great, but then all those restrictions living at the Dursleys and the things he goes through, he just never has half the study time Hermione has and always had more trouble, not to mention Quidditch

[Maljinwo]

Being clever is not the same as hoarding knowledge

[Calfredd]

There's a reason he was going to be placed in Sytherin if he didn't beg not to.

[Doctor Amadeus]

A broken clock is right twice a day clever? Mostly, but then again he is a kid and including the films he wasn't really required to be intelligent. He sort of just fell on his face into his destiny so to speak. That and the fact he was bullied is supposed to endear him tot he audience.

I would describe it more as what if If before King Arthur pulled the sword he was bullied and thought he was a loser until Merlin came along. I kind of also think J.K made Hermione the love interest to of Ron to swerve from the assumption everyone made she would end up wit Harry. Not particularly a fan of Rowling especially now, but this was a bit of a clever swerve.

[StillMcfuu]

He was clever but he wasn't hyper intelligent, in many ways movie Hermoine wasn't either, she just read a lot and had an aptitude for retaining knowledge. Memory callback is a small part of what constitutes intelligence.
Ron also has many moments of problem solving, you could say he was too immature as a child to allow his intelligence to shine through, but would access it when he was pressed.

[eschatological]

Harry was clever, but exceptionally unambitious academically. It happens all the time. I think he could have been a straight A student if he applied himself (and something wasn't trying to kill him every year).

[Maljinwo]

Harry was clever, but exceptionally unambitious academically. It happens all the time. I think he could have been a straight A student if he applied himself (and something wasn't trying to kill him every year).

Fred and George created several charms and devices yet they mostly failed academically despite being clearly more than capable of acing them as well

[s_bushido]

He was a smart kid, but I don't think there was anything particularly special about his intelligence. He figured stuff out when he needed to because he was The Protagonist™ and that's just the sort of thing that needs to happen to move that sort of story forward.

[eschatological]

Fred and George created several charms and devices yet they mostly failed academically despite being clearly more than capable of acing them as well

Yep, it sometimes happens with really smart kids who get bored in school or something they can do well doesn't interest them. Fred and George seemed like borderline geniuses at times.

[vizzle]

Hogwarts Legacy has inspired another read through the books

I use to think that Harry was just brawn and courage while Hermione was the real brains.

But on another read through, I've realised Harry actually is a lot cleverer than I thought. There are many times he figures things out, comes out with ideas that are actually quite incredible that Hermione never came up with. Makes some astute observations and deductions that denote very high intelligence, and cracks some difficult puzzles no one else can do purely on intuition and cleverness rather than knowledge..

Some of it is nothing short of genius. It's just that the narrative never says it out loud. You dont hear people commenting on how clever Harry is, but actually he does a lot of brilliant things .

It's knowledge he didnt have much of compared to Hermione, not intelligence capacity or quotient. His grades that arent that great, but then all those restrictions living at the Dursleys and the things he goes through, he just never has half the study time Hermione has and always had more trouble, not to mention Quidditch

Having read the series maybe 3-4 times in my youth/teenage years, I would say that Harry always came across as a smart kid. Not super book smart like Hermione, but obviously smart. Ron was the one who was average. The narrative doesn't openly discuss that Harry is "smart" but I never thought that it pretended he wasn't clever.

I guess I could always relate, being a kid who was "smart" but never took classes too seriously until I got to undergrad, so I never really got the impression that he wasn't smart/clever. Adults don't tend to acknowledge smarts in kids outside of the classroom at that age.

[Biomega]

He was a smart kid, but I don't think there was anything particularly special about his intelligence. He figured stuff out when he needed to because he was The Protagonist™ and that's just the sort of thing that needs to happen to move that sort of story forward.

Harry is one of the textbook cases of that, in fact. He's not really remarkable in any substantial way, and purely feeds off of Chosen One Syndrome. He's not even exceptionally brave - which is not to say he isn't brave, just that others around him are, too. He just happens to be the one at the center of things a lot of the time, and largely without it being his own doing. People just take him along, trust in him, or otherwise make him the object of their interest in ways that then leave him in the right place at the right time.

The whole Goblet of Fire incident is emblematic of this. He doesn't do ANYTHING there. He didn't put his name in. He didn't solve any of the riddles by himself. He is entirely maneuvered into things by outside forces.

From start to finish he's just the one everyone raises a fuss about, and honestly there isn't a big reason why. And what to me has always been the ultimate stroke of irony is the outright ADMISSION that he was not, in the end, someone special or unique - because if it hadn't been him it'd have been Neville.

In terms of narratology, there's a pretty mundane reason for this that's common in many children's and YA stories: protagonists are (at least on the surface) intentionally made generic and unexceptional because it makes it easier for readers to transpose themselves into the role. The whole "it could be anyone, so it could be YOU!" idea that drives people to identify with characters and therefore become more invested in the story. It's a pretty simple trick, but it's effective - Harry Potter, Twilight, The Hunger Games, they really all kind of work exactly like that. They feature otherwise ordinary people ripped out of their ordinariness by events largely outside of their control, which they solve by being largely ordinary but making the best of it anyway.

[vizzle]

A broken clock is right twice a day clever? Mostly, but then again he is a kid and including the films he wasn't really required to be intelligent. He sort of just fell on his face into his destiny so to speak.

I think you're letting your current anti-JK bias cloud your memory a bit (which is fair but needs to be pointed out). There were many, many, many instances where Harry could've failed, but his own wit pulled him out of the situation successfully. He didn't just stumble his way for years to defeating the Dark Lord of the wizarding world.

- - - Updated - - -

Harry is one of the textbook cases of that, in fact. He's not really remarkable in any substantial way, and purely feeds off of Chosen One Syndrome. He's not even exceptionally brave - which is not to say he isn't brave, just that others around him are, too. He just happens to be the one at the center of things a lot of the time, and largely without it being his own doing. People just take him along, trust in him, or otherwise make him the object of their interest in ways that then leave him in the right place at the right time.

The whole Goblet of Fire incident is emblematic of this. He doesn't do ANYTHING there. He didn't put his name in. He didn't solve any of the riddles by himself. He is entirely maneuvered into things by outside forces.

To be honest Goblet of Fire is maybe the worst book to use against him for this discussion, because:

A) Of course he couldn't win the Triwizard Tournament (or whatever it was called) without tons of help; he wasn't even old enough to be part of it to begin with. It's like expecting a middle schooler to beat high school seniors. He was always out of his depth with that book and that's the way it was intended. It just would've been silly if Rowling pretended that Harry, with all his amazing amazingness, won everything by himself. That would've been "Chosen One Syndrome" that you're complaining about.

and

B) If it seems like everything was designed for him to win, it's because it WAS. Not just by the author, but also in the narrative. Did you forget the ending? They WANTED him to get the trophy and port right into Voldemort's hands. That's the entire point of the story!

So yeah, that book was written specifically that way, so using it as your proof for this discussion is a bit silly.

[s_bushido]

From start to finish he's just the one everyone raises a fuss about, and honestly there isn't a big reason why. And what to me has always been the ultimate stroke of irony is the outright ADMISSION that he was not, in the end, someone special or unique - because if it hadn't been him it'd have been Neville.

I mean...to be fair: The fact that it was him and not Neville meant that he had that piece of Voldemort in him that did set him apart from the rest of his peers. But it's impossible to tell how important that was outside of the deus ex moments specifically involving him, Voldemort, and his mother's spell.

[Biomega]

So yeah, that book was written specifically that way, so using it as your proof for this discussion is a bit silly.

That's my point. That's how the entire series works, ultimately. It's a deliberate contrivance start to finish of him being in the right place at the right time largely because of the interests and efforts of other people.

Harry himself has pretty much no goals or motivations - his entire arc is a reaction, living out his Chosen One role that he neither chose nor contributed to in any real way.

You could argue that the only time of ACTUAL agency is his refusal to join Slitherin in the first book. Which creates a fun spin on things, when you think about it, but it all pretty much starts and ends there.

[LordVargK]

There's a reason he was going to be placed in Sytherin if he didn't beg not to.

Wasn't that because he had a part of Voldemort's soul inside him?

[Amagh]

That's my point. That's how the entire series works, ultimately. It's a deliberate contrivance start to finish of him being in the right place at the right time largely because of the interests and efforts of other people.

Harry himself has pretty much no goals or motivations - his entire arc is a reaction, living out his Chosen One role that he neither chose nor contributed to in any real way.

You could argue that the only time of ACTUAL agency is his refusal to join Slitherin in the first book. Which creates a fun spin on things, when you think about it, but it all pretty much starts and ends there.

But Harry does have "goals and motivations" He wishes to become an Auror after Hogwarts. And furthermore what do you mean he didnt contribute anything? Harry achieved a great deal of things during his time in Hogwarts and their hunt for the Horcruxes, he put in work and it sometimes paid off and sometimes it didnt (Like his dreadful performance at occlumency). He didnt just "stumble through" everything and won because of others.

[LordVargK]

That's my point. That's how the entire series works, ultimately. It's a deliberate contrivance start to finish of him being in the right place at the right time largely because of the interests and efforts of other people.

Harry himself has pretty much no goals or motivations - his entire arc is a reaction, living out his Chosen One role that he neither chose nor contributed to in any real way.

You could argue that the only time of ACTUAL agency is his refusal to join Slitherin in the first book. Which creates a fun spin on things, when you think about it, but it all pretty much starts and ends there.

I disagree on him being passive an only reacting to others:
- 1st book: he seeks Voldemort out by himself, trying to stop him. Although that was entirely unnecessary and made the situation more dangerous he still acted without being "the chosen one".
- 2nd book he acts out of self interest: finding out who did it so everyone else stops thinking he is the heir of slytherin. He could have just gotten along with it and made some slytherin friends.
-5th book: He creates dumbledores army.
- 7th book He takes on Voldemort. Not because of someone else, but because he himself doesn't want to live in a tyranny. And because he has a personal grudge against him.

Harry has a very clear goal: avenge his parent's death. He doesn't need to do that, he wants to do that.

Also "the chosen one" story doesn't really come into effect until the end of the 5th book.

[vizzle]

That's my point. That's how the entire series works, ultimately. It's a deliberate contrivance start to finish of him being in the right place at the right time largely because of the interests and efforts of other people.

Harry himself has pretty much no goals or motivations - his entire arc is a reaction, living out his Chosen One role that he neither chose nor contributed to in any real way.

You could argue that the only time of ACTUAL agency is his refusal to join Slitherin in the first book. Which creates a fun spin on things, when you think about it, but it all pretty much starts and ends there.

Could you cite examples other than the actual book that was written with the "Chosen One" intent? Because I've never heard anyone say Harry Potter is purely a plot-driven book where the character has no agency.

[Mace]

Harry was clever, but exceptionally unambitious academically. It happens all the time. I think he could have been a straight A student if he applied himself (and something wasn't trying to kill him every year).

Yeh, that feels right. Something trying to kill him every year, banned from studying over the hols, something he was very interested in, I think his home situation made school become like an exploration of a new world where studying wasnt always the highest priority, in fact never the highest priority for him. Them there was quidditch. But it was mostly something trying to kill him all the time

- - - Updated - - -

Fred and George created several charms and devices yet they mostly failed academically despite being clearly more than capable of acing them as well

Yep , Fred and George seemed highly intelligent, but focused it all on their enterprise, I can imagine they would ace subjects like potions, herboligy, charms and transfigurstion, but do abysmal on history of magic, divination, arithmancy and care of magical creatures, and likely average on defenses against the dark arts

[Syegfryed]

I think you're letting your current anti-JK bias cloud your memory a bit (which is fair but needs to be pointed out). There were many, many, many instances where Harry could've failed, but his own wit pulled him out of the situation successfully. He didn't just stumble his way for years to defeating the Dark Lord of the wizarding world.

- - - Updated - - -



To be honest Goblet of Fire is maybe the worst book to use against him for this discussion, because:

A) Of course he couldn't win the Triwizard Tournament (or whatever it was called) without tons of help; he wasn't even old enough to be part of it to begin with. It's like expecting a middle schooler to beat high school seniors. He was always out of his depth with that book and that's the way it was intended. It just would've been silly if Rowling pretended that Harry, with all his amazing amazingness, won everything by himself. That would've been "Chosen One Syndrome" that you're complaining about.

and

B) If it seems like everything was designed for him to win, it's because it WAS. Not just by the author, but also in the narrative. Did you forget the ending? They WANTED him to get the trophy and port right into Voldemort's hands. That's the entire point of the story!

So yeah, that book was written specifically that way, so using it as your proof for this discussion is a bit silly.

This, Harry and the story was well written so he wasn't a mary sue.

People forgot that Harry was very good at defense against the dark arts and with the broom, so he was exceptional in those areas, well, he was even good in potions, but snape fucked him over and made him lose the interest, happens all the time with some teachers.

And i add that, even if they made sure they win the tournament, if it wasn't for his talents he would be fucked stil.

- - - Updated - - -

Could you cite examples other than the actual book that was written with the "Chosen One" intent? Because I've never heard anyone say Harry Potter is purely a plot-driven book where the character has no agency.

There is several occasions that talk about his agency and how he could have chosen things different, and even going to the bad side if he wanted it

He could have shared the secrrt of the horcruxes and pass the mission to others, and he didn't. He wanted to do it.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean...to be fair: The fact that it was him and not Neville meant that he had that piece of Voldemort in him that did set him apart from the rest of his peers. But it's impossible to tell how important that was outside of the deus ex moments specifically involving him, Voldemort, and his mother's spell.

Dumbledore said the only thing he gained from the "connection" was the ability to speak with snakes, and the mental link, that could be used both ways.