Would Blizzard ever institute support specs?

[vashe9]

no they wont (I hope they wont) we barely have enough tank/healers as it is. Who the hell will play a support who can't solo support a group or do dps like a normal dps. This idea is a bad idea. BC shamans have that role (BL only Shaman, totems, ect). If you want a support play BC classic... ooops it doesn't exist anymore

[Sableye]

you can't really do a support spec in WoW that isn't either at least a competitive healer or dps so you'd end up with a spec that's either worse than a healer or dps, or one that's better than a healer or dps

[crusadernero]

Would never work. Since forever, even classes that have had support-abilities have been considered useless and obsolete. At best, a raid would take one of said spec/class.

Who would take in a support spec to fill a dps role? No one.

It sounds cool on paper and in a fantasy setting, but gameplay wise? Nah, that would require a total overhaul on how Blizzard approach pve & pvp for that matter.

[Ielenia]

What I'm saying is that you're following your typical argumentative trait of saying something not implemented is a problem, while that non-implemented item is already in the game in another form and operating just fine.

It's not implemented.

And Shaman lost Windfury totem for quite awhile. In fact, the current version of Windfury Totem isn't the same as the version that was removed at the end of Cataclysm.

It's still the same buff, only it affects auto-attacks instead of all hits.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

You're welcome to be wrong if you want, I suppose. You seem to be using a definition of 'simpler' and 'more complex' different than the rest of the world, here.

Where did I state that I could come up with a better system than Builder/Spender?

You said that there are better systems than 'builder/spender' and 'proc-based', which you failed to present even a single example when asked about it.

I simply said that it would be better for the game if blizzard came up with something better.

Again: better such as?!

Maybe decoupling support from DPS could push them to do that,

How?

because then they wouldn't use support abilities to make DPS specs more interesting.

In other words, just make the role SIMPLER, not more complex.

[Teriz]

you can't really do a support spec in WoW that isn't either at least a competitive healer or dps so you'd end up with a spec that's either worse than a healer or dps, or one that's better than a healer or dps

You make it competitive by giving it a defined role. That defined role is to enhance the abilities of your other party members. It wouldn't need to be competitive healing or DPS, its job is to make the group perform better.

[vashe9]

You make it competitive by giving it a defined role. That defined role is to enhance the abilities of your other party members. It wouldn't need to be competitive healing or DPS, its job is to make the group perform better.

But roles are limited in a party of 5... If it's mandatory, it will take forever to find one tank/heal/support and it will be even harder for pure dps (like hunters or mages) to get a slot... if it's not mandatory, that means it's more efficient to have 3 dps... then no one will play/invite any supports. That's how it works

[Teriz]

It's not implemented.

Windfury is only available to enhance, so the "horrific" scenario you proposed where other specs aren't taken because they lack a strong buff is already happening.

It's still the same buff, only it affects auto-attacks instead of all hits.

Nah, the old windfury increased the attack speed of melee and ranged by 10%. New Windfury gives melee a 20% chance to hit a target twice.

Not the same.

You said that there are better systems than 'builder/spender' and 'proc-based', which you failed to present even a single example when asked about it.

Just because I don't present it doesn't mean a better system doesn't exist.

In other words, just make the role SIMPLER, not more complex.

In your opinion.

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But roles are limited in a party of 5... If it's mandatory, it will take forever to find one tank/heal/support and it will be even harder for pure dps (like hunters or mages) to get a slot... if it's not mandatory, that means it's more efficient to have 3 dps... then no one will play/invite any supports. That's how it works

You expand the party size to 6 (1 tank, 1 heal, 1 support, 3 DPS). Pure DPS classes like Hunters, Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages would get support specs.

[Alroxas]

Changing the raid sizes has worked before, and we even had soft Support roles ever since early vanilla. But having a niche that only requires 1 mandatory support while introducing a new role that arguably many more than just 1-person per raid will want to play, I can't see this working out too well. It messes with the Dungeon and Raid formula in odd ways, where everyone scrambles to have one for a Dungeon, but no one wants more than 1 in any raid.

Yeah, I was listening to another podcast talk about this very issue and basically they brought up Vanilla Paladins as buff-bots. You wanted them in raid for their blessings but it was incredibly dull gameplay. All they did was go down the list of raiders and place a 5 minute blessing on them. Not something players really enjoyed.

That's why I think it should be a flexible role, where the raid or dungeon is smoother if you have one, but otherwise it isn't a full Buffer role that is considered necessary.
...
Heck, I'd even opt to have Bosses get a stamina system similar to D4, where you can stagger them with enough applied debuffs and put them into a vulnerability state. Supports would be the ones to appy and stack the debuffs, so even if they don't contribute pure DPS, they help push bosses into Staggers
...
Raid and Dungeon composition could be tooled towards reaching optimal Stagger, and bosses could be varied enough to have one or two boss fights where 3+ supports would be ideal, otherwise you could make due without having any if you just want to do the fights normally without relying on Staggers at all. It would be interesting if Staggers could help bypass certain phases if stacked correctly, since gaming the system has always been a rewarding part of accomplishing a raid.

But there lies the problem. If a support class doesn't really contribute that much, then why bring one compared to a DPS which is impactful? But if the support class/spec DOES contribute a lot, then why would you NOT have at least one? And then if their support abilities are somehow additive or multiplicative, then why not bring 2 or 5?

Which leads to the problem with stagger mechanic. If you're able to push the boss into a stagger state that they aren't able to do their normal boss abilities then it can trivialize mechanics or make the mechanics so deadly that you HAVE TO stagger or it's going to be a much more difficult fight.

We already see this in existing fight encounters when we know when a boss will transition and if you can reach that state faster (aka more DPS) then you can bypass deadly mechanic overlaps.

[Ielenia]

Windfury is only available to enhance, so the "horrific" scenario you proposed where other specs aren't taken because they lack a strong buff is already happening.

There's a huge difference between a very tiny amount of buffs/debuffs being spec-specific, and every single buff and debuff being locked to specific specs that don't heal, don't do damage, and can't tank.

Nah, the old windfury increased the attack speed of melee and ranged by 10%. New Windfury gives melee a 20% chance to hit a target twice.

Not the same.

That is the Windfury Totem's original effect: granting extra attacks. The Cataclysm version is the odd one out. Just look at the vanilla WoW's version of the totem. And TBC's version of the totem.

Just because I don't present it doesn't mean a better system doesn't exist.

It's called "backing up your claim", man. If you don't present any examples, then you can't assert that said options exist.

In your opinion.

Stop calling facts 'opinions', man.

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Yeah, I was listening to another podcast talk about this very issue and basically they brought up Vanilla Paladins as buff-bots. You wanted them in raid for their blessings but it was incredibly dull gameplay. All they did was go down the list of raiders and place a 5 minute blessing on them. Not something players really enjoyed.

And in Molten Core, for the Gehennas fight, basically the only thing mages in the raid would do in the group is 'remove curse' on the entire raid since the boss basically spams a 5-minute curse that reduces healing by 75%, and just wand-attack during intervals to conserve mana for the next wave of 'remove curse'.

[Alroxas]

All support specs should be able to do their role regardless of class. Again "Bring the player not the class" would still apply here. Shaman support should be just as viable as Paladin or Hunter support.

But what happens when you pair a shaman support with a paladin or hunter support in a party/raid? Is having 2 being redundant or do they have additive or multiplicative effects? Does the support get stronger if you have more of then?

Can we have like 6 supports funneling 1 DPS to insane levels of DPS? See chain PI as a clear example of this.

Again, why would you need to significantly adjust old content? Just tune the dungeon to the new party set up, and build new dungeons and raids with this set up in mind.

Systems are inevitably tied together. For instance, Timewalking dungeons is old content that would be a candidate since it would take modern players back to and older content. Scaling is applied but those instances were never designed for a support class/spec to exist.

Who would it alienate?

You're joking right? Have you seen all the posters who have replied to your idea? All the counter points made? Yeah, I'd say there's a fair amount of folks who aren't onboard due to the multiple issues previously raised that have yet to be addressed properly.

WoW was actually built for this role. It was largely abandoned in WotLK as Blizzard crystalized the trinity, but Vanilla and TBC had what are essentially support specs in Shaman and Paladin classes.

I don't think players want to go back to paladins being blessing bots. I mean let's just look at Classic WoW (and Classic BC). How many players have gone back to classic? How are the numbers looking relative to live? Do you still see high interest in Classic WoW/BC (not counting Classic WotLK since that's when support was "abandoned")

[Teriz]

There's a huge difference between a very tiny amount of buffs/debuffs being spec-specific, and every single buff and debuff being locked to specific specs that don't heal, don't do damage, and can't tank.

I never argued that every single buff and debuff would be locked to the support spec. I said that non-support would get weaker versions of support abilities just like non-healers get weaker versions of healing spells.

That is the Windfury Totem's original effect: granting extra attacks. The Cataclysm version is the odd one out. Just look at the vanilla WoW's version of the totem. And TBC's version of the totem.

Either way, the current version of Windfury isn't the same as the previous versions of the spell, and we've had expansions where Windfury wasn't available period. An example of an iconic ability getting removed and no one losing their mind about it.

Stop calling facts 'opinions', man.

You viewing a more in-depth DPS rotation as being more simple is definitely an opinion.

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But what happens when you pair a shaman support with a paladin or hunter support in a party/raid? Is having 2 being redundant or do they have additive or multiplicative effects? Does the support get stronger if you have more of then?

Nah, you bring two so that you can cover the raid and be flexible depending on what the raid is throwing at your group.

They can have multiplicative effects if they are different buffs. If they are the same buff, then they wouldn't stack.

Can we have like 6 supports funneling 1 DPS to insane levels of DPS? See chain PI as a clear example of this.

Nope.

Systems are inevitably tied together. For instance, Timewalking dungeons is old content that would be a candidate since it would take modern players back to and older content. Scaling is applied but those instances were never designed for a support class/spec to exist.

The only thing Support would add is DPS, HPS, and Tanking doing their jobs better. That should be rather easy to design around. It should really only take a difficulty ramp up for older content. If the difficulty is ramped up too much, then ramp the difficulty down.

You're joking right? Have you seen all the posters who have replied to your idea? All the counter points made? Yeah, I'd say there's a fair amount of folks who aren't onboard due to the multiple issues previously raised that have yet to be addressed properly.

Those are people who are simply asking questions and giving counterexamples. In a discussion there are always disagreements. That doesn't mean that if this is implemented, people would be putt off, confused, and no longer want to play the game. Again, this would simply be a return of an older style of gameplay that wasn't fully fleshed out, yet is clearly popular in other RP games because Blizzard gets asked to consider it constantly.

I don't think players want to go back to paladins being blessing bots. I mean let's just look at Classic WoW (and Classic BC). How many players have gone back to classic? How are the numbers looking relative to live? Do you still see high interest in Classic WoW/BC (not counting Classic WotLK since that's when support was "abandoned")

The reason people aren't going back to classic in droves isn't because of Paladins and Shaman. They aren't going back because people quickly realized how old school classic is, like having to swing a new weapon several times to get proficient at it, or having to buy arrows and bullets as a Hunter. Modern players are more used to modern convenience offered in modern games.

As for Paladins and Shaman, they didn't work out because of class design of the time. Modern class design dedicated to actually make this an actual role would fare FAR better.

[Ielenia]

I never argued that every single buff and debuff would be locked to the support spec. I said that non-support would get weaker versions of support abilities just like non-healers get weaker versions of healing spells.

Which they would be told to not use so it doesn't interfere with the support's actually worthwhile support spells because of diminishing returns.

Either way, the current version of Windfury isn't the same as the previous versions of the spell,

I've just proven you wrong. The current version of Windfury is just like its original incarnation.

and we've had expansions where Windfury wasn't available period.

Also irrelevant. It was a period where Blizzard cracked down on most if not all support abilities. Paladins lost 90% of their blessings, monks lost their buffs, etc.

An example of an iconic ability getting removed and no one losing their mind about it.

Sounds like someone never played WoW or accessed any fan or official forum when Blizzard announced they're removing the windfury totem...

You viewing a more in-depth DPS rotation

You have yet to provide how the removal of support abilities from DPS/healers/tanks would lead to a more "in-depth DPS rotation"

as being more simple is definitely an opinion.

It's a fact that it makes the role simpler since they no longer have to worry about interrupting/debuffing/buffing/support and focus purely on damage.

[Teriz]

Which they would be told to not use so it doesn't interfere with the support's actually worthwhile support spells because of diminishing returns.

Why would they be not allowed to use it? It would be no different than a DPS healing themselves in a raid.

I've just proven you wrong. The current version of Windfury is just like its original incarnation.

All you've proven is that there were multiple versions of Windfury totem in the history of WoW. Did Shaman lose their minds each time they got a different version of the spell?

Also irrelevant. It was a period where Blizzard cracked down on most if not all support abilities. Paladins lost 90% of their blessings, monks lost their buffs, etc.

Isn't your entire argument that classes DON'T consistently lose "iconic" class abilities?

You have yet to provide how the removal of support abilities from DPS/healers/tanks would lead to a more "in-depth DPS rotation"

I have; Make the DPS rotation more interesting and complex instead of falling back into builder/spender constantly.

It's a fact that it makes the role simpler since they no longer have to worry about interrupting/debuffing/buffing/support and focus purely on damage.

Which implies that DPS requires support abilities to make it interesting/complex. It doesn't. Some people just like blowing stuff up and racking up huge numbers.

[Azerox]

Nope, Blizzard is all into low effort max gains tactics.

[Triceron]

But there lies the problem. If a support class doesn't really contribute that much, then why bring one compared to a DPS which is impactful? But if the support class/spec DOES contribute a lot, then why would you NOT have at least one? And then if their support abilities are somehow additive or multiplicative, then why not bring 2 or 5?

Which leads to the problem with stagger mechanic. If you're able to push the boss into a stagger state that they aren't able to do their normal boss abilities then it can trivialize mechanics or make the mechanics so deadly that you HAVE TO stagger or it's going to be a much more difficult fight.

We already see this in existing fight encounters when we know when a boss will transition and if you can reach that state faster (aka more DPS) then you can bypass deadly mechanic overlaps.

IMO, you address it similarly to Offtanks.

Some fights required 1 offtank, some 2, some 3. Sometimes the mechanics are flexible enough to put a DPS standin to soak damage, or merely kite a mob.

And a key to having that variety is in designing different bosses to have different vulnerabilities, and making sure every raid is diverse. The sweetspot for supports can be flexible, and boss design can become less dependent on DPS and berserk timers as a result. IMO, the role of Support is effectively similar to the offtank - a role that exists to address the mechanics of specific encounters. Allow some fights to be easy-to-beat having 3+ support, allow some fights to not need support at all. That is a key part of giving raid groups options and letting them find the best way to progress through the raid in their own way. Some groups will want to min max DPS, some groups will want the safety net of attrition with more supports than baseline. That should all be okay.

If the concern is having support lowers overall DPS and hitting potential berserk timers, then one way to tackle that is having Stamina drain proportionally extend berserk timers. It would be beneficial for any raid progressing with lower DPS and gear thresholds, while fewer Support would be 'required' once raids get more geared; the exact same thing that happens with stacking more healers or offtanks in earlier raid progression than later progression. Support should be a flexible role, one where every Support player should still be prepared to swap to another role that suits the raid the best. And generally, a support player would be the type to be flexible, not a necessity throughout. Much like an offtank.

Mechanics would of course have to be tuned to make room for supports. I'd say have a sweetspot of 2-3 Support, with certain bosses designed for extremes where you might need only 1, or might be beneficial to throw in a 4th. But having support shouldn't be equivalent of DPS, the mechanics need to allow for flexibility in the way it is if you had a surplus of healers or offtanks. You would lack DPS to push past a certain boss phase/mechanic, but the fights are technically safer and better for progression, when low gear is still a factor. It's a similar principle to offtanking, that's the only way I can explain how this imaginary system could work.

[Ielenia]

Why would they be not allowed to use it? It would be no different than a DPS healing themselves in a raid.

I literally just explained it: diminishing returns. Also, isn't your entire point about this is that "dps should focus on doing dps"? If they have to use their (weaker) support abilities, is kills the point of having a support spec.

All you've proven is that there were multiple versions of Windfury totem in the history of WoW. Did Shaman lose their minds each time they got a different version of the spell?

Yes. Yes, they have. And not just shamans, either.

Isn't your entire argument that classes DON'T consistently lose "iconic" class abilities?

Wow, way to bait-and-switch. No, you've got this completely wrong. It's your argument that "classes lose iconic abilities ALL THE TIME", and at best you've only mentioned ONE TIME in which that happened.

I have; Make the DPS rotation more interesting and complex instead of falling back into builder/spender constantly.

Dude, you're literally using your own claim as evidence for that very same claim. That is now how it works. How would it be "more interesting and complex"? What else could be done that is more "interesting and complex" than builder/spender and proc-based builds?

Which implies that DPS requires support abilities to make it interesting/complex.

The fact of the matter is that it is complex. "Interesting" is subjective, but it is objectively more complex.

[SinR]

They had that.

They were called Shaman and Paladins.

[Teriz]

I literally just explained it: diminishing returns. Also, isn't your entire point about this is that "dps should focus on doing dps"? If they have to use their (weaker) support abilities, is kills the point of having a support spec.

Incorrect. For example, if DPS had a personal version of Bloodlust that only affected them, it would in no way affect a support class having the group version of Bloodlust. Granted, the DPS would still get the debuff from using it, so they wouldn't get the benefit of the ability. Additionally, Mages could still cast Arcane Intellect, but a support Mage would get either something better than Arcane Intellect, or something that works with it, like a Mage version of Aura Mastery.

Also DPS wouldn't have to use their support abilities in group play, because there's a dedicated supporter.

Yes. Yes, they have. And not just shamans, either.

So then how is it a big deal if Windfury moves to Support Shaman if its already happened multiple times?

Wow, way to bait-and-switch. No, you've got this completely wrong. It's your argument that "classes lose iconic abilities ALL THE TIME", and at best you've only mentioned ONE TIME in which that happened.

So you think that in the entire history of WoW only Shaman have lost an iconic ability?

Dude, you're literally using your own claim as evidence for that very same claim. That is now how it works. How would it be "more interesting and complex"? What else could be done that is more "interesting and complex" than builder/spender and proc-based builds?

That's another question for another thread. For THIS thread, DPS being decoupled from having to do support in group play could push Blizzard to make the role more interesting and complex.

[Ielenia]

Incorrect. For example, if DPS had a personal version of Bloodlust that only affected them, it would in no way affect a support class having the group version of Bloodlust. Granted, the DPS would still get the debuff from using it, so they wouldn't get the benefit of the ability.

In other words:

Which they would be told to not use so it doesn't interfere with the support's actually worthwhile support spells because of diminishing returns.

Also DPS wouldn't have to use their support abilities in group play, because there's a dedicated supporter.

In other words, you're once again debunking yourself, as that would make the role simpler and not more complex.

So then how is it a big deal if Windfury moves to Support Shaman if its already happened multiple times?

This isn't about the windfury totem specifically. It's about all buffs and debuffs.

So you think that in the entire history of WoW only Shaman have lost an iconic ability?

Read above. You've laser focused on the shaman example and lost track of the big picture.

That's another question for another thread.

So when people call you out on your BS, you dodge and avoid the question.

[bloodmoth13]

Totems were actually fun and Shaman used to fulfill the role of buffing players. The modern design philosophy is what destroyed them and gave all classes utility, from heals to invulnerabilities. The game is fast paced now so support wouldn't really add any impactful benefit.

The hardest of disagrees. Enhance was never a support, just a subpar DPS that had to waste gcds each fight to make other players do better damage, outside of wasting a few seconds placing totems you were just a DPS spec, there were no rotational skills that made you play like a support spec you were a DPS that had support skills just like everyone with group buffs, only shamans had the curse of needing to apply them before every fight.