No Dragonflight numbers from Blizzard means??

[Osmeric]

Heck, the "last hope" for MMO fans these days are the RIFT MMO. A game we know literally NOTHING about. Probably why people have hopes for it, cause we know nothing.

Do you mean the LoL MMO from Riot? Nothing to do with Rift.

[Relapses]

Do you mean the LoL MMO from Riot? Nothing to do with Rift.

I can't speak for anybody else but my personal excitement for that title evaporated when it was announced GC was leaving the project.

[crusadernero]

Do you mean the LoL MMO from Riot? Nothing to do with Rift.

Sorry, my bad. Of course I mean the LoL MMO from Riot. Rift is... something else lol

[Osmeric]

I can't speak for anybody else but my personal excitement for that title evaporated when it was announced GC was leaving the project.

I was never excited about it, and was never going to try it, but GC leaving does make me curious what happened. I understand his explanation of personal issues, but I don't think that would have driven him off if he were sufficiently committed to the project ("sufficiently" is doing some lifting there.)

Perhaps not surprisingly, I'm somewhat excited about Palia. Maybe excited is not the right word.

[Relapses]

I was never excited about it, and was never going to try it, but GC leaving does make me curious what happened. I understand his explanation of personal issues, but I don't think that would have driven him off if he were sufficiently committed to the project ("sufficiently" is doing some lifting there.)

Perhaps not surprisingly, I'm somewhat excited about Palia. Maybe excited is not the right word.

My read is that GC is a getting a bit older and may not be in a place in his life where he can devote his entire personhood to the game's development. He's always struck me as a bit of a professional perfectionist so he likely chose to bow out and focus more on his personal life instead of failing at both.

Even with GC's exit, I still think Riot's MMO is the closest thing to actual competition for WoW and if they can somehow manage to leverage a cohesive competitive scene (something Riot is known to foster) then it'll be a net win for MMOs in general as competition breeds innovation.

[VMSmith]

Even with GC's exit, I still think Riot's MMO is the closest thing to actual competition for WoW and if they can somehow manage to leverage a cohesive competitive scene (something Riot is known to foster) then it'll be a net win for MMOs in general as competition breeds innovation.

There's so little known about the LoL MMO that I really can't decide if I'm interested or not. Original WoW basically perfected the MMO wheel so unless Riot comes up with something drastically innovative their MMO will just be "A new WoW, but without all the years of personal investment". Which, for me at least, is a non-starter. If I want to play something WoW-like I'll just play WoW, and I'm thoroughly uninterested in WoW outside of new content experiences for a few weeks. The only reason I can enjoy SWTOR right now is because of Galactic Seasons, it's too much "WoW in space" for my tastes otherwise.

Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I feel like the MMO genre is just not one worth investing in at this time. The success of WoW has ended up making MMO development stale and unoriginal. The aforementioned Palia does intrigue me, however. I don't expect it to ever be huge, but hopefully, it can deliver an enjoyable experience for those that try it.

[Kokolums]

Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I feel like the MMO genre is just not one worth investing in at this time. The success of WoW has ended up making MMO development stale and unoriginal. The aforementioned Palia does intrigue me, however. I don't expect it to ever be huge, but hopefully, it can deliver an enjoyable experience for those that try it.

There are no MMOs at this point. WoW is currently an ARPG.

[Osmeric]

The aforementioned Palia does intrigue me, however. I don't expect it to ever be huge, but hopefully, it can deliver an enjoyable experience for those that try it.

I like that it's trying something off in so different a part of game design space. One has to respect that level of risk taking.

I'll also respect the LoL MMO if they honestly make clear just what it is and what it's trying to do. I may not play it, but if they warn me it's something I wouldn't like they get a thumbs up from me.

[VMSmith]

I like that it's trying something off in so different a part of game design space. One has to respect that level of risk taking.

Yep. My wife and I are both excited about the idea of an MMO that isn't combat-focused at all. I'm really interested in seeing what they can come up with to keep players engaged without ending up as just some massively multiplayer Animal Crossing. Which, to be honest, wouldn't be bad either

I'll also respect the LoL MMO if they honestly make clear just what it is and what it's trying to do. I may not play it, but if they warn me it's something I wouldn't like they get a thumbs up from me.

I agree, that would be nice. Wildstar really burned me by presenting as a whimsical casual-friendly MMO experience (the devs literally told me in a Reddit AMA that content would be separated for casual/hardcore) but ending up as an unforgiving, miserable challenge-fiesta.

Whatever it ends up being, I doubt that I'll buy into it at launch. But, that could be because I'm anticipating a holy-trinity instance-focused challenge-fiesta I'm over that sort of gameplay completely and just want MMO experiences that let me burn an hour or two (or more) puttering around every day. This is why I enjoy SWTOR's Galactic Seasons so much, because it is exactly that.

[mbit2]

Palia does intrigue me, however. I don't expect it to ever be huge, but hopefully, it can deliver an enjoyable experience for those that try it.

It looks like animal crossing the mmorpg version. I think it could become huge if they do that.

[Relapses]

Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I feel like the MMO genre is just not one worth investing in at this time. The success of WoW has ended up making MMO development stale and unoriginal. The aforementioned Palia does intrigue me, however. I don't expect it to ever be huge, but hopefully, it can deliver an enjoyable experience for those that try it.

WoW's biggest problem is that it cannot leverage its casual and more hardcore content. It has to account for both with every system, every NPC, every storyline, every carrot-on-a-stick that they employ. It has had varying degrees of success (and failure) at achieving balance since its launched. But it's never been perfect since they've never been afforded the opportunity to look at the issue with a clean slate. That's the key benefit Riot has with their project: They can build the game from the ground up with the needs and desires of the diametrically opposed groups of players in mind every step of the way. Say what you will about LoL but much of its success is due to to how well the game lends itself to both beginners and experts.

All that said, while without GC's guidance I'm less enthused with the project as a whole, I'm still intrigued by the potential. MMOs are a license to print money and even the ones which ultimately fail are still able to claw back parts of their development budget. Riot as a game studio also has a mostly positive perception by gamers, something Blizzard hasn't had since the days of WotLK. Time will tell, obviously, but there is space in the genre for more than one MMO (an argument I make repeatedly when people insist that FFXIV has dethroned WoW).

[Det]

And I'm starting to believe you don't want to have a discussion. Every time I refute your points you ignore everything and move on to completely new arguments.


Such as? There are hundreds of animations.


So what? As I've already pointed out, that is a meaningless argument. Hell, it's not even an argument to begin with.


Which they never said they'd do for Dragonflight, so another meaningless argument.


A game made in 2004 looks old. Imagine that.


"Little". That's a laugh. Yeah, because making games and updating games is as easy, simple and easy as making rice, apparently. At least in your worldview, I assume.


It's not a perfect expansion but I don't think it's 'clunky' or 'unorganized'.


Welcome to WoW since 2004.


"Online service game developers want to keep players playing their online service game as much as they can. More news at 11." In all seriousness, you do know what the alternative is, right? "We finished everything there is to do in a week, Blizzard. Why isn't the next content patch live yet?!"

I would say so far it’s worse than WoD, BfA and Shadowlands. It’s very barebones, buggy, customization options are still laughable for a mmo, the features are lackluster, Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms and Northend still have their outdated graphics and the story is still meh.

The client also performs worse than I’ve ever seen in WoW history.

Dragonflight was Blizzard's chance to show the community they were serious about restoring the IP, and all they did was revert to the same tactics to take more money from it’s players with tedious, repetitive and frustrating tasks.

Blizzard has also made being a caster completely unfun and a tedious slog of constant movement for mechanics that don’t affect melee or allow melee to continue to move while sidestepping. They don’t seem to really understand where the imbalance is so they’re blindly throwing everything at the wall. It’s like they don’t even play their own game. When you gut specs without a clue, it invalidates the choices players made and disrespects their time just like the racist faction system. Players shouldn't feel forced to play certain things, if they don't want to.

Class imbalance needs to be fixed asap, just like all races need to be neutral. Otherwise this game continues to be that annoying and frustrating mess, which it has been for years

[Ielenia]

I would say so far it’s worse than WoD, BfA and Shadowlands. It’s very barebones, buggy, customization options are still laughable for a mmo, the features are lackluster,

Considering Blizzard isn't trying to make WoW into "just like any MMO", I'd say that's a good thing. It has a decent range of customization, both in the character generation screen and in the game itself.

Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms and Northend still have their outdated graphics

This part I just throw right into the trash bin. It has no meaning when discussing the expansion.

The client also performs worse than I’ve ever seen in WoW history.

Weird. It performs better than it ever did, for me.

Dragonflight was Blizzard's chance to show the community they were serious about restoring the IP, and all they did was revert to the same tactics to take more money from it’s players with tedious, repetitive and frustrating tasks.

Same ol' tactics, yes! After all, we gotta log in every day to grind as much Aspect Power as we can, and empower this expansion's McGuffin's artifact as much as we can to perform as best we can... no, we don't.

Blizzard has also made being a caster completely unfun

Which is 100% subjective. There are people who enjoy the class.

When you gut specs without a clue, it invalidates the choices players made and disrespects their time just like the racist faction system. Players shouldn't feel forced to play certain things, if they don't want to.

Then don't. You're not "forced" to play anything. Classes are, for the most part, just fine and competitive enough, unless you're a hardcore mythic raider player.

Class imbalance needs to be fixed asap,

It's never going to happen unless all classes are made the exact same, with only coats of paint to differentiate them.

just like all races need to be neutral.

No, they don't.

[VMSmith]

WoW's biggest problem is that it cannot leverage its casual and more hardcore content. It has to account for both with every system, every NPC, every storyline, every carrot-on-a-stick that they employ.

I completely agree with this. It's seen constantly on forums, like this one, where the different types of players are even set against each other because Blizzard's attempts at balancing these factions have always been to the benefit of one at the expense of the other. So, players have been conditioned against anything that benefits anyone other than themselves. As an example, adding housing should be a non-controversial concept, and yet there is so much blowback against the very idea of housing ... likely because the assumption is that adding it would be to the detriment of the non-housing-enthusiasts content.

So maybe you're right and Riot is designing the game with the intention of upending this constant MMO paradigm and providing a game world that benefits all types of players. If they can pull that off I'd be happy to give the game a shot.

[Det]

Considering Blizzard isn't trying to make WoW into "just like any MMO", I'd say that's a good thing. It has a decent range of customization, both in the character generation screen and in the game itself.


This part I just throw right into the trash bin. It has no meaning when discussing the expansion.


Weird. It performs better than it ever did, for me.


Same ol' tactics, yes! After all, we gotta log in every day to grind as much Aspect Power as we can, and empower this expansion's McGuffin's artifact as much as we can to perform as best we can... no, we don't.


Which is 100% subjective. There are people who enjoy the class.


Then don't. You're not "forced" to play anything. Classes are, for the most part, just fine and competitive enough, unless you're a hardcore mythic raider player.


It's never going to happen unless all classes are made the exact same, with only coats of paint to differentiate them.


No, they don't.

Dragonflight just leaves you with the same problems wow always had and is overall really just an awful expansion.

Like I've said before the developers just completely ignore the overall world. Like always players get a tiny new island with modern graphics while the rest of the world plays no role at all. Neither the lore gets adjusted, for example in the 2 warfronts from bfa, or in Ashenvale, Gilneas, Theramore you name it, nor get the graphics an update. You keep forgetting the visuals are almost two decades old. Thus the world in this game looks really hideous due to it's extremely outdated visuals.

Since luckily I've played other games besides wow I know what modern customisation options should look like. Customisations in wow however are a joke. Not only are there way too few options, they are also very unfairly portioned between playable races. To no surprise, considering how toxic the developers of wow tend to be.

This expansion has also overcomplicated everything. Crafting/Professions are confusing and I’ve had to read several guides just to figure out how it even works. Not to mention that profession and also the story is locked behind a renown grind. Obviously to waste as much time as possible for the monthly sub cost this game charges.

The group loot situation is... how do I say this politely? Not good. Loot was always a problem and felt unrewarding in this game, but this time around... it's catastrophic.

The story continues to be very bad, worse even than wod, bfa and shadowlands.

wow doesn't really feel like a mmorpg. The RPG part is completely missing. It rather feels as if the only thing the developers care for is pretending that this game is an e-sport game. So it's neither for casuals, nor for people, who would enjoy the story/world part.

[Ielenia]

Dragonflight just leaves you with the same problems wow always had and is overall really just an awful expansion.

Highly subjective.

Like I've said before the developers just completely ignore the overall world.

And like I have said before, that is irrelevant since Blizzard never said they'd be updating the old world in Dragonflight.

Neither the lore gets adjusted, for example in the 2 warfronts from bfa, or in Ashenvale, Gilneas, Theramore you name it, nor get the graphics an update.

Because they're actual game features. Blizzard is not going to remove a game feature to 'update the lore'. The warfronts, the battlegrounds, etc, they all stay because they're part of the story told in their respective expansions.

You keep forgetting the visuals are almost two decades old.

And you keep showing that you don't read what other people write. I never 'ignored it'. You, on the other hand, did ignore my responses:

A game made in 2004 looks old. Imagine that.

Since luckily I've played other games besides wow I know what modern customisation options should look like. Customisations in wow however are a joke.

Cool. Go play those other games, then? WoW is clearly not the game for you considering there's not a single '0' or '1' in this entire game that you haven't negatively criticized, sometimes even unfairly so.

Crafting/Professions are confusing and I’ve had to read several guides just to figure out how it even works.

Somehow I doubt that. The crafting system is more complex but it's nowhere near this "I need several guides just to know how it works" level.

Not to mention that profession and also the story is locked behind a renown grind.

Professions have always been behind a grind of some sort.

The group loot situation is... how do I say this politely? Not good. Loot was always a problem and felt unrewarding in this game, but this time around... it's catastrophic.

Elaborate.

The story continues to be very bad, worse even than wod, bfa and shadowlands.

Highly debatable.

wow doesn't really feel like a mmorpg. The RPG part is completely missing.

What parts of it are missing, exactly? Because, as far as I know, WoW ticks all the boxes to be classified as a MMORPG.

[Det]

Highly subjective.


And like I have said before, that is irrelevant since Blizzard never said they'd be updating the old world in Dragonflight.


Because they're actual game features. Blizzard is not going to remove a game feature to 'update the lore'. The warfronts, the battlegrounds, etc, they all stay because they're part of the story told in their respective expansions.


And you keep showing that you don't read what other people write. I never 'ignored it'. You, on the other hand, did ignore my responses:




Cool. Go play those other games, then? WoW is clearly not the game for you considering there's not a single '0' or '1' in this entire game that you haven't negatively criticized, sometimes even unfairly so.


Somehow I doubt that. The crafting system is more complex but it's nowhere near this "I need several guides just to know how it works" level.


Professions have always been behind a grind of some sort.


Elaborate.


Highly debatable.


What parts of it are missing, exactly? Because, as far as I know, WoW ticks all the boxes to be classified as a MMORPG.

You simply are not reading what I'm saying!

Renown isn’t fun, if you want to get orders going since most want you to have higher renown.
It is also not fun to gain for crafting.
Open world leaves a lot to be desired.
The black dragon area has a lot of mob tagging issues that make it unfun for me to try to get things done there even in a group.
Gold making possibilities has fallen.
A ton of bugs in some areas.
The Dragon Isles look nice with some exceptions, which look very unfinished. Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms etc. look awful. No updates whatsoever on the graphics. Updates would be EXPECTED in an expansion - not even for the main cities have been done lol...
Customization options are just laughable in this game. Evoker has a little bit more options than the others races, but my god, even that race has way too few for a game in this age.
Work orders are not that well thought out.
It is still not possible to play with my friend, who prefers the other faction in the same guild etc. Even though this is supposed to be a social game.

World quests weren’t iterated on and are not plentiful so it leaves me diddling my fingers for more rep somewhere or things to enjoy or do.
Dragon flying is straight up copied from Guild Wars.

You never ever address my points.

[HansOlo]

You simply are not reading what I'm saying!

Renown isn’t fun, if you want to get orders going since most want you to have higher renown.
It is also not fun to gain for crafting.
Open world leaves a lot to be desired.
The black dragon area has a lot of mob tagging issues that make it unfun for me to try to get things done there even in a group.
Gold making possibilities has fallen.
A ton of bugs in some areas.
The Dragon Isles look nice with some exceptions, which look very unfinished. Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms etc. look awful. No updates whatsoever on the graphics. Not even for the main cities! lol...
Customization options are just laughable in this game. Evoker has a little bit more options than the others races, but my god, even that race has way too few for a game in this age.
Work orders are not that well thought out.
It is still not possible to play with my friend, who prefers the other faction in the same guild etc. Even though this is supposed to be a social game.

World quests weren’t iterated on and are not plentiful so it leaves me diddling my fingers for more rep somewhere or things to enjoy or do.
Dragon flying is straight up copied from Guild Wars.

You never ever address my points.

Do you still play the game?

[Ielenia]

You simply are not reading what I'm saying!

Me not accepting your argument is not me not reading what you're writing.

Renown isn’t fun,

Renown is just the old reputation with more than just five ranks and easier to reach the later ranks since they all have the same rep amount requirement: 2.5k. Which is less than you needed to reach the first rep rank before: 3k.

if you want to get orders going since most want you to have higher renown.

Lies. You can easily have a guildmate or friend send you work orders, or even have your own alt send your main work orders.

It is also not fun to gain for crafting.

Open world leaves a lot to be desired.

In your subjective opinion. Myself, I like the centaur hunts and tuskarr soup events.

The black dragon area has a lot of mob tagging issues that make it unfun for me to try to get things done there even in a group.

The only mobs with mob tagging still on are the non-elite ones, which are in small numbers in there.

Gold making possibilities has fallen.

Which is a good thing, IMO.

A ton of bugs in some areas.

Bugs? Yes. "Tons" of bugs? Not really.

The Dragon Isles look nice with some exceptions, which look very unfinished. Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms etc. look awful.

Irrelevant.

No updates whatsoever on the graphics. Updates would be EXPECTED in an expansion - not even for the main cities have been done lol...

Updates not announced during an expansion reveal shouldn't be expected. It's your own fault for setting yourself for disappointment.

Customization options are just laughable in this game.

There's quite a lot of customization. You don't like it, go play those other games you said you played, then, if this bugs you too much.

Work orders are not that well thought out.

How so? They work just fine.

It is still not possible to play with my friend, who prefers the other faction in the same guild etc. Even though this is supposed to be a social game.

Being in opposite faction =/= anti-social game, my dude.

World quests weren’t iterated on and are not plentiful so it leaves me diddling my fingers for more rep somewhere or things to enjoy or do.

I don't think you have played the game. World Quests in Shadowlands gave pitiful rep, like 50 at best, and were around every day. On Dragonflight, they give at least 125 rep and reset twice a week.

Dragon flying is straight up copied from Guild Wars.

A complain so irrelevant it deserves to be in the trash.

You never ever address my points.

Lol thanks for admitting you don't care to read what people write. Quite hypocrite out of you as you start this very post of yours by accusing me of not reading what you write. I've addressed every single one of your points for several posts now. You're literally ignoring everything I write, to the point of not even acknowledging my arguments.

[Det]

Me not accepting your argument is not me not reading what you're writing.


Renown is just the old reputation with more than just five ranks and easier to reach the later ranks since they all have the same rep amount requirement: 2.5k. Which is less than you needed to reach the first rep rank before: 3k.


Lies. You can easily have a guildmate or friend send you work orders, or even have your own alt send your main work orders.

It is also not fun to gain for crafting.

In your subjective opinion. Myself, I like the centaur hunts and tuskarr soup events.


The only mobs with mob tagging still on are the non-elite ones, which are in small numbers in there.


Which is a good thing, IMO.


Bugs? Yes. "Tons" of bugs? Not really.


Irrelevant.


Updates not announced during an expansion reveal shouldn't be expected. It's your own fault for setting yourself for disappointment.


There's quite a lot of customization. You don't like it, go play those other games you said you played, then, if this bugs you too much.


How so? They work just fine.


Being in opposite faction =/= anti-social game, my dude.


I don't think you have played the game. World Quests in Shadowlands gave pitiful rep, like 50 at best, and were around every day. On Dragonflight, they give at least 125 rep and reset twice a week.


A complain so irrelevant it deserves to be in the trash.


Lol thanks for admitting you don't care to read what people write. Quite hypocrite out of you as you start this very post of yours by accusing me of not reading what you write. I've addressed every single one of your points for several posts now. You're literally ignoring everything I write, to the point of not even acknowledging my arguments.

The game IS full of bugs, glitchy, laggy, outdated graphics and just not a good game with several restrictions, that are really out of place for a game in 2022. Like... I wasn't even able to join my friend's guild, because wow uses racial segregation for their 2 playable factions and my race wasn't allowed in his faction. Like wtf is even going on here? xD Really crappy design I tell you.

Instead of a new race we get a lazy worgen reskin, with only one visage from.
Instead of a visual update... no update at all, not even for the cities.
Instead of new features Blizzard just stole dragon flying from Guild Wars.
The new zone looks fine, the rest of the world however looks outdated and it’s EXPECTED to be fixed at an expansion – when else? also the new zone has a ton of lags and bugs.
pvp is due to the class imbalance a complete mess.
loot system is frustrating.
Still FOMO and time gating.
Still faction restrictions.
Still no player housing.
Still outdated looking gear.
Too few world quests.