1. #15121
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Some 5Heads here told us that Disney should just hire a different black guy as a Chadwick replacement and not doing this and putting Shuri as BP "took away a chance" from some hypothetical actor. Yup, they are this upset we are getting more MCU girls in the spotlight.
    I'll preface by saying I haven't seen BP2, so cannot comment on how much I might enjoy it. That said, I love seeing equality in films in general. I'm a big Captain Marvel fan and have loved Brie's work since Scott Pilgrim. She blew me away in Room. I enjoyed Melissa McCarthy's Ghostbusters film, especially the role-reversal of Chris Hemsworth and the absolutely hilarious acting of Kate McKinnon. Right now I'm thoroughly enjoying a slow watch of She-Hulk, it's an incredibly fantastic series that should get more attention.

    I say this all to clarify my position on equality so that I can also say that, yes, I would have preferred a recasting of Black Panther rather than a passing of the torch. Not because Shuri is a woman. Not because her actress is an anti-vaxxing loon. But because I like the T'Challa version of the character, regardless of which actor is playing him. I also like the Jane Foster version of Thor (and now Valkyrie, in the comics) better than the original Thor. These are just personal preferences.

    The people that didn't like it because they dared to replace a male character with a female? Well, they can go fuck themselves sideways and really aren't worth the effort of responding to, and I'm boggled that people do bother to give them any "airtime" in these threads. I don't engage with racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, and facists. They thrive on making you feel defensive about the things you enjoy so, again, fuck them.

  2. #15122
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    The people that didn't like it because they dared to replace a male character with a female? Well, they can go fuck themselves sideways and really aren't worth the effort of responding to, and I'm boggled that people do bother to give them any "airtime" in these threads. I don't engage with racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, and facists. They thrive on making you feel defensive about the things you enjoy so, again, fuck them.
    I am in principle happy with female characters even when they take up the mantle of a previously male character; I found Shuri to be just fine in BP2 for example (the movie had other problems, she wasn't it).

    But on a critical level I do find myself wondering if this is actually a good way to strengthen female agency and representation. Do I really want characters that are defined by what some man did before? "X, but female" is a whole trope with a slew of problems, and for all the increase in female characters it provides, it does make me question if it's not counterproductive to some extent to simply recast female reflections of male originals. That just doesn't sit well with me on some level, because it raises the whole canard of women being "just as good as men", as if that was some default standard that females are deficient in. That is something I've usually been quite pissed off by in the past.

    I want to see ORIGINAL female characters. Of all kinds. But I get that's hard to do, not only because making new characters is difficult, period, but also because it can feel artificial and ancillary in a world dominated by franchise-driven rosters with decades of history across all kinds of media. So I guess we'd need to reach into that bottomless Marvel hat and pull out some good female characters that deserve more spotlight, kind of the way they turned B-tier heroes like Iron-Man into franchise carriers. Not sure who the best candidates are. Marvel has a gazillion things to work with, but when it comes to writing women, perhaps something conceived of in the 1960s or whatever has its own share of problems. I really don't know.

  3. #15123
    Lots of VFX sources saying Alonso was the single source if the toxic environment towards the VFX artists . Describing the one who pushed hardest for representation! As a bully. How shocking. Turns out calling your audiences Ists and phobes for questioning ir being critical of the changes was bad fir business.

    Also catering to the Twitter activists was a bad idea as there was no where near ascmany as they thought. They by and large don't even watch these movies or shows. They didn't kearn any lessons from the comics debacles from around 2015 or do. Instead they doubled down on it in movies and D+ then act shocked it failed .
    Last edited by Dystemper; 2023-03-22 at 04:35 AM.
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  4. #15124
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    Edited: I see that you extended the answer. Well...from its very inception Marvel had strong females in the center of the narrative. In an age where television were stuck in a traditional wife ( 60s) Marvel women were in the front of the battle kicking asses NOT cooking lunches.
    Sure, they might have had some female representation, but it was still the Male heroes who primarily drove serieses / were the focus of the genre for decades and decades in the early years. Like, you ever stop and wonder why Male superheroes outnumber Female superheroes by a like 5 to 1 ratio most of the time despite the fact that females make up more than half the population of the planet? Ever really thought about the fact that there are like 20 well know Male members of the Xmen, for example, but only like 3 females who regularly show up?

  5. #15125
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Ever really thought about the fact that there are like 20 well know Male members of the Xmen, for example, but only like 3 females who regularly show up?
    If we’re talking comics this defiantly isn’t the case. Off the top of my head there’s,

    Emma
    Jean
    Magik
    jubilee
    X23
    Phylock
    Kitty
    Rouge
    Storm

    Who all show up every where in comics and have for like over 20 (obviously less for X23) years at this point easily up there with the big names like night crawler Cyclopes beast colossus and iceman.

    Wolverine is obviously in his own league.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #15126
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Sure, they might have had some female representation, but it was still the Male heroes who primarily drove serieses / were the focus of the genre for decades and decades in the early years. Like, you ever stop and wonder why Male superheroes outnumber Female superheroes by a like 5 to 1 ratio most of the time despite the fact that females make up more than half the population of the planet? Ever really thought about the fact that there are like 20 well know Male members of the Xmen, for example, but only like 3 females who regularly show up?
    Maybe by the same reason aquaman movie was so popular with the female audience

  7. #15127
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dystemper View Post
    They didn't kearn any lessons from the comics debacles from around 2015 or do. Instead they doubled down on it in movies and D+ then act shocked it failed .
    looking at the end of year sales there doesn’t seem like much of a debacle around 2015 with a lot of the books your obviously talking about ending up some where in the top 20 industry wide.

    2014 dominated by batman/Spider-Man but Female thor and black cap show up.

    2015 was a great year for marvel with there starwars doom and spider Gwen is high.

    2016 saw champions and civil war 2 lead by SJW captain marvel come in hot.

    2017 was a DC year but still had some good high ranking titles secret empire and the crying of Nazi cap and mighty Thor still doing well.

    Month to month sales would obviously paint a clearer picture but no one’s got time for that and I’d say the kinds of books your referring to regularly being pretty high in end of years sales for multiple years running is a decent picture of how some if not all of these kinds of characters were doing.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #15128
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    looking at the end of year sales there doesn’t seem like much of a debacle around 2015 with a lot of the books your obviously talking about ending up some where in the top 20 industry wide.

    2014 dominated by batman/Spider-Man but Female thor and black cap show up.

    2015 was a great year for marvel with there starwars doom and spider Gwen is high.

    2016 saw champions and civil war 2 lead by SJW captain marvel come in hot.

    2017 was a DC year but still had some good high ranking titles secret empire and the crying of Nazi cap and mighty Thor still doing well.

    Month to month sales would obviously paint a clearer picture but no one’s got time for that and I’d say the kinds of books your referring to regularly being pretty high in end of years sales for multiple years running is a decent picture of how some if not all of these kinds of characters were doing.
    I remember someone saying those were comics Shipped not sold, so its hard to track sales and how popular those comics were to the audience.

    And holy shit, those are expensive, no wonder why i can't find any around here. I rly wanted the immortal hulk run

  9. #15129
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I am in principle happy with female characters even when they take up the mantle of a previously male character; I found Shuri to be just fine in BP2 for example (the movie had other problems, she wasn't it).

    But on a critical level I do find myself wondering if this is actually a good way to strengthen female agency and representation. Do I really want characters that are defined by what some man did before? "X, but female" is a whole trope with a slew of problems, and for all the increase in female characters it provides, it does make me question if it's not counterproductive to some extent to simply recast female reflections of male originals. That just doesn't sit well with me on some level, because it raises the whole canard of women being "just as good as men", as if that was some default standard that females are deficient in. That is something I've usually been quite pissed off by in the past.

    I want to see ORIGINAL female characters. Of all kinds. But I get that's hard to do, not only because making new characters is difficult, period, but also because it can feel artificial and ancillary in a world dominated by franchise-driven rosters with decades of history across all kinds of media. So I guess we'd need to reach into that bottomless Marvel hat and pull out some good female characters that deserve more spotlight, kind of the way they turned B-tier heroes like Iron-Man into franchise carriers. Not sure who the best candidates are. Marvel has a gazillion things to work with, but when it comes to writing women, perhaps something conceived of in the 1960s or whatever has its own share of problems. I really don't know.
    I think the issue you highlight is a result of the conclusion you make. To wit: female characters created in the 60-the 80s are more likely to be derivatives of male characters with a basis in that time period's more unenlightened vision of gender roles.

    But Marvel has done a great job of repurposing those characters and creating new ones for readers to enjoy. Thanks to the MCU comics are no longer necessarily created entirely for pre-pubescent and adolescent boys. This is good because they compete with a wide array of electronic entertainment that the comics industry pre-2000 didn't have to account for to the same degree. Atari 2600 wasn't so compelling that I didn't want to read Superman I think the backlash against female characters is the last, desperate wailing of little boys who hate that girls have been let into their clubhouse.

    I don't even mind if Hollywood or the comics industry "forces" a message of equality and acceptance into their products. It's a good message and the only reason to be against it is that one is a hateful jackass, full stop.

    I do want to see original female characters, as well. As they're being created some will stick and some will fizzle out, just like any other characters.

  10. #15130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    If we’re talking comics this defiantly isn’t the case. Off the top of my head there’s,

    Emma
    Jean
    Magik
    jubilee
    X23
    Phylock
    Kitty
    Rouge
    Storm

    Who all show up every where in comics and have for like over 20 (obviously less for X23) years at this point easily up there with the big names like night crawler Cyclopes beast colossus and iceman.

    Wolverine is obviously in his own league.
    we know Wolverine is set to enter the MCU via Deadpool 3, I wonder if Colossus, NSTW, Domino and Yukio will follow. I am curious as to who they cast, I'd love to see Anya Taylor-Joy return as Magik, would be great to see Dafne Keen return as X-23 although I am not sure if she'd be tall enough though, if I remember correctly the adult X-23 was tall

  11. #15131
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I think the issue you highlight is a result of the conclusion you make. To wit: female characters created in the 60-the 80s are more likely to be derivatives of male characters with a basis in that time period's more unenlightened vision of gender roles.
    To an extent, given that it's a genre whose inception was largely dominated by visions of masculinity and female objectification. But there's still a difference between "literally female Black Panther" and "an X-themed superhero, except female". I get that both have problems, though, you're not wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    But Marvel has done a great job of repurposing those characters and creating new ones for readers to enjoy. Thanks to the MCU comics are no longer necessarily created entirely for pre-pubescent and adolescent boys. This is good because they compete with a wide array of electronic entertainment that the comics industry pre-2000 didn't have to account for to the same degree. Atari 2600 wasn't so compelling that I didn't want to read Superman I think the backlash against female characters is the last, desperate wailing of little boys who hate that girls have been let into their clubhouse.
    It does make one hopeful, and the demographic shift in recent years has definitely toppled the previously MASSIVE male dominance in many forms of entertainment. But there's still skews here and there, and it's tricky to find good angles.

    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I don't even mind if Hollywood or the comics industry "forces" a message of equality and acceptance into their products. It's a good message and the only reason to be against it is that one is a hateful jackass, full stop.
    I have zero problems with the message, in fact to me there still isn't enough being done, especially when it comes to real, substantial agency. My problem is that it's often done at the expense of quality, which I find lazy and counterproductive. It suggests that you have to choose between good writing and inclusive writing, and I fundamentally refuse to accept that binary. And, on the other end of things, it also suggests that as long as your writing IS inclusive, it is also good - which is similarly ridiculous, and far too often just an excuse for people not to be diligent enough in their work. And what's worse, it creates avenues of resistance for the sputtering embers of the old order, because they can latch onto poor writing and purport it is poor because of its inclusivity - rather than just taking it to task because it's poor writing. Bad bad bad.

  12. #15132
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    Edited: I see that you extended the answer. Well...from its very inception Marvel had strong females in the center of the narrative. In an age where television were stuck in a traditional wife ( 60s) Marvel women were in the front of the battle kicking asses NOT cooking lunches.
    There's literally dozens and dozens of heroines that we fans love so I honestly gonna tell to whoever says Marvel women don't deserve protagonism that they can kindly go fuck themselves.
    I mean, "very inception" isn't exactly right. Female Superheroes were almost always only found in teams...and generally only 1 token female surrounded by men. The original X-Men were 4 males and 1 female, The Fantastic 4, 3 males and 1 female, The Avengers 4 males, 1 female. And while, despite their ages, Peter Parker (15) and Bobby Drake (13 or 14) got to be Spider-Man and Iceman respectively... Jean Grey (16) and Sue Storm (early 20's) were Marvel Girl and the Invisible Girl. Sue didn't gett to actually be the Inivisible Woman unttil 1985...almost 25 years after her first appearance.

    As progressive as Marvel was at the time...it was still the 60's.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  13. #15133
    I don't know what kind of change could be well receive. Comics superheroes were mostly created at a time in USA where women have little rights and black people are still not perceived as regular human beings. On top of that it was common to use female characters as pinups to boost the sales.

    So this inherently transpires into the movies and changes made to those films will hurt some of the audience or characters. With good writers you can do something interesting, but MCU don't really have a lot of those.

  14. #15134
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    We can go on and do a dissection every movie and tv show, but my friend does not have the time now, and the drones will pop up to fight, if you still want to talka bout you can dm me and my friend will answer to you
    I think this is the first time ever that you don't want to discuss about something lol...but it's ok. Don't think that I specially like this "woke wars" topics, in fact I would pretty much prefer to discuss about the things I like in Marvel but I just think than asking how two gay characters , that appears for literally 5 seconds in a movie , break the narrative apart is a fair question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Sure, they might have had some female representation, but it was still the Male heroes who primarily drove serieses / were the focus of the genre for decades and decades in the early years. Like, you ever stop and wonder why Male superheroes outnumber Female superheroes by a like 5 to 1 ratio most of the time despite the fact that females make up more than half the population of the planet? Ever really thought about the fact that there are like 20 well know Male members of the Xmen, for example, but only like 3 females who regularly show up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I mean, "very inception" isn't exactly right. Female Superheroes were almost always only found in teams...and generally only 1 token female surrounded by men. The original X-Men were 4 males and 1 female, The Fantastic 4, 3 males and 1 female, The Avengers 4 males, 1 female. And while, despite their ages, Peter Parker (15) and Bobby Drake (13 or 14) got to be Spider-Man and Iceman respectively... Jean Grey (16) and Sue Storm (early 20's) were Marvel Girl and the Invisible Girl. Sue didn't gett to actually be the Inivisible Woman unttil 1985...almost 25 years after her first appearance.

    As progressive as Marvel was at the time...it was still the 60's.
    I think you already gave the asnswer to your own approaches..it's still the 60s. Look , we live in this moment of history but we should not fall in the trap of presentism, of observing the past from our prism ( as difficult as it is) because that is always one way ticket to not understanding history.

    The fact that we have woman in the front row of the battle treated as equals not as ancillary characters has an extreme significance in the proper social context ( that should be our perspective) of a fiction that only put a spotlight on women to oversexualize them on weird scenes of Jane Fonda having furry orgasms on camera.

    This is a step, this is progress, it's difficult to deny it and the fact that there's no interracial transexual couples being founding members of the Avengers ( our prism) doesn't alter its signficance not it is the fact that is not perfect AT ALL and there's a million edges to polish , a lot of patronizing moments.

    One funny example:



    Reed,dude....Sue is by a far margin the most powerful member of the Four.If she was a mutant she would be an omega, she has taken down the whole Avengers all by herself ( twice)....Reed, mate...lol.

    Now these imperfections are the sign of their times but the step forward is undeniable.In television she would still be the pretty thing...but would be cooking dinner not facing Doom. That all the people screaming and harassing Ruby Bridges at the stairs of an school weren't detained for hate speech doesn't change the importance of the event nor diminishes it.

    And it's not just sexism. You point at the female token but it's not the only token. The main difference with the mirror they had ( DC) is the introduction of the monster token, of the character ( Hulk,The Thing, Beast...) that complete breaks the apollonian definition of the hero at the time, of perfect men and women with idealized physiques that had to be pushed because the editorial thought kids wouldn't be related to a bunch of walking rocks and would scare them. The diversity is not just in sex: a heroism is about what you do not about what you look.

    So I'm sorry but no, it's the 60s, it's not perfect but I stand by my words: very inception. It's undeniable progress.

  15. #15135
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    I think this is the first time ever that you don't want to discuss about something lol...but it's ok. Don't think that I specially like this "woke wars" topics, in fact I would pretty much prefer to discuss about the things I like in Marvel
    I don't want to talk to people who bait infractions, that sure will come, and, there is not rly much to talk about, since numbers and media talk by itself, this bit about Blade - that may be true or not - kinda beat the dead horse of the marvel bad aproaching to these heroes

    but I just think than asking how two gay characters , that appears for literally 5 seconds in a movie , break the narrative apart is a fair question
    I mean, nobody rly cares about that, that is the least of the problems people have, like i said, its what you understand it is "woke" in current year, and like i said, apparently people have different views of what it means. If you are talking about Doctor Strange there is a lot of problems besides that, that are rly, way too much on the nose.


    Reed,dude....Sue is by a far margin the most powerful member of the Four.If she was a mutant she would be an omega
    Was she that strong at that time?

  16. #15136
    Quote Originally Posted by Dystemper View Post
    They didn't kearn any lessons from the comics debacles from around 2015 or do. Instead they doubled down on it in movies and D+ then act shocked it failed .
    Comics downturn began in the late 80s. Fully imploded by the mid-90s. It had little to do with "representation" and more to do with crappy writing. Admittedly, the prior storylines involving the "female superhero" had to step on the coattails of previous male heroes, but again it was written well.
    As for the mcu, most of the shitty writing is about as subtle as a brick in the face, and telegraphed in such a way that everyone sees it coming.

  17. #15137
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I remember someone saying those were comics Shipped not sold, so its hard to track sales and how popular those comics were to the audience.

    And holy shit, those are expensive, no wonder why i can't find any around here. I rly wanted the immortal hulk run
    No it’s not hard at all comic stores are not mass buying books that aren’t selling. The numbers might not be exactly what was sold but they will still line up directly with popularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Some of those women have also had some great recent stories. I'm loving Storm, in particular, right now. I believe the term is "boss bitch."
    Ya Storm in Xmen red has been pretty great and I’ve also been rather enjoying the X23 and the children of the vault stuff recently.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #15138
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    On the subject of comic sales, is there anything that counts Marvel Unlimited subscriptions and tracks how many people read X issue?
    I was trying to find something on this a while ago and as far as I could find they share like any thing for marvel unlimited which seems a bit crazy to me.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #15139
    Disney looking at late April for a 3rd round of layoffs at the parks. They are closing some open proposals supposedly.

    Iger is not messing around at all. Layoffs are being positioned in consideration of the stock drop.

  20. #15140
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I don't use it myself, but I'd imagine there are plenty of people paying monthly to read plenty of issues of a whole range of series.
    I signed back up for another year about a month ago. In that time, I've caught up on a bunch of X-Factor and X-Force from the last couple decades, Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur's initial run, most of Squirrel Girl, and a bunch of smaller miniseries arcs like Vision's family arc, the Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom team-up issue, etc.

    I buy trades for stuff I want to read and re-read, and I don't actually own a lot of Marvel; I've got Planet/World War Hulk in trades, but most of what I actually own is stuff like SaGa or Fables or Sandman or (obviously) Hellboy.

    But I like reading a lot of stuff, and Marvel Unlimited is stupidly worth the price. I've already made up what I consider the value of the year's subscription a month in, and while I've got a novel or three to punch through before I'll likely go back to some more Marvel, it's all gravy from here. May run a deep dive on Spider-Mans, both Parker and Morales; I've read specific runs but I haven't actually gone through the Ultimate Spider-Man.


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