Baine's Purpose

[Grazrug]

You might be right with Sylvanas, but Kael was not meant to be a faction leader since blood elves were introduced. He started as a villain right at start of TBC. Lor'themar now leads sin'dorei longer than Kael ever did.

Kael being a villain was a massive retcon contradicting everything from Warcraft 3. And really nobody cares about Bob. He is a one eyed hack with no powers.

[Aucald]

Kael being a villain was a massive retcon contradicting everything from Warcraft 3. And really nobody cares about Bob. He is a one eyed hack with no powers.

Kael essentially becomes a villain in the same game he was introduced in, in this case, WC3: TFT. Almost no one was surprised by his continued heel-face turn to the Legion in TBC.

[Shadowferal]

I think the "sun elves" story should be seen in a more tragic light.

[Myradin]

Kael essentially becomes a villain in the same game he was introduced in, in this case, WC3: TFT. Almost no one was surprised by his continued heel-face turn to the Legion in TBC.

While fine with consorting with shadier powers I wouldn't call him a villain in WC3. He was an antagonist to the main character (Arthas) but he never did much wrong. The only time he sided with the Legion in TFT was to take a strike at the lich king...the guy who had wrecked his kingdom in the first place.

[Aucald]

While fine with consorting with shadier powers I wouldn't call him a villain in WC3. He was an antagonist to the main character (Arthas) but he never did much wrong. The only time he sided with the Legion in TFT was to take a strike at the lich king...the guy who had wrecked his kingdom in the first place.

Illidan, as of TFT, was ostensibly in the employ of the Legion (on the threat of death) and Kael both joined him along with Vashj and started draining the essence of captured demons to satiate his arcane addiction. The proverbial writing was basically on the wall. All that changes in TBC is that Kael actually betrays Illidan, who stopped serving the Legion, by remaining affiliated with the Legion. The status quo for Kael from TFT didn't change at all, in the end.

[Vaedan]

Illidan, as of TFT, was ostensibly in the employ of the Legion (on the threat of death) and Kael both joined him along with Vashj and started draining the essence of captured demons to satiate his arcane addiction. The proverbial writing was basically on the wall. All that changes in TBC is that Kael actually betrays Illidan, who stopped serving the Legion, by remaining affiliated with the Legion. The status quo for Kael from TFT didn't change at all, in the end.

I believe most people find TFT Kael and Vashj more of an anti-hero characters, rather than villains. As for Kael, you are right he was set on the path to become villain back in TFT. I guess his fans were not happy with this direction, but it like decade ago, so almost nobody care about him anymore. He got his "redemption" in Shadowlands.

[Maljinwo]

Him being a dick towards the DI centaur, who have jackshit all to do with Kalimdor ones, is just facepalm-worthy. Or are you really angry at someone just because he/she vaguely resembles some jerkass you met twenty years before?

It's a cultural thing.
Living in Argentina there's STILL people that despise the British for the whole Malvinas/Falklands war. From 1982
People can't let it go.


Now imagine being a Tauren. All of your life you have fought with centaurs that kill and pillge your people. Hell, Baine was even kidnapped.
Of course he will be resentful of centaurs.

Who cares if this isn't the same group. They are still centaur. And they have been retconned to predate the War of the Ancients.
I'd be suspicious as fuck

[Shadowferal]

I was always fond of the "Shattered Sun Offensive" motif.

[Grazrug]

Illidan, as of TFT, was ostensibly in the employ of the Legion (on the threat of death) and Kael both joined him along with Vashj and started draining the essence of captured demons to satiate his arcane addiction. The proverbial writing was basically on the wall. All that changes in TBC is that Kael actually betrays Illidan, who stopped serving the Legion, by remaining affiliated with the Legion. The status quo for Kael from TFT didn't change at all, in the end.

Kael was a hero who tried to avenge his kingdom. And Arthas was objectivley the bad guy. Going against him even if it is the will of the Legion is not a counter to his heroic characterization.

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I believe most people find TFT Kael and Vashj more of an anti-hero characters, rather than villains. As for Kael, you are right he was set on the path to become villain back in TFT. I guess his fans were not happy with this direction, but it like decade ago, so almost nobody care about him anymore. He got his "redemption" in Shadowlands.

I wouldn't count that as redemption. When Illidan got his redemption he returned being alive and got a full time job as Jailer for Sargeras. Kael just stays dead and can't return to his people. Which makes the blood elf story obsolete considering Bob is as irrelevant as Baine is these days. The entire Sunwell plot made the path of the blood elves obsolete especially it focused on Velen instead of our own leaders.

[Aucald]

Kael was a hero who tried to avenge his kingdom. And Arthas was objectivley the bad guy. Going against him even if it is the will of the Legion is not a counter to his heroic characterization.

Arthas was objectively the bad guy, but that doesn't mean everyone opposed to him was by contrast good - the Legion, the Scarlets, Kael, etc. Villains can oppose villains just fine. As for Kael being a hero, well; his own people disagree with you there as does the existing lore and Kael's own story.

[guro-tchai]

Kael both joined him along with Vashj and started draining the essence of captured demons to satiate his arcane addiction. The proverbial writing was basically on the wall.

eh?.. i don't remember him and Vashj making imp smoothies. yes, she did say that other fonts of magic exist, but it was never explicitly said back then that they summon demons and chop them into steaks. besides, who gives a shit about demon rights?
i never even thought of Kael as an anti-hero - he was a hero, period. joining forces with the naga and Illidan was reckless and questionable, but he had no other choice. fighting demons and the undead is always laudable. the fact that his interests and Kil'jaeden's coincided isn't particularly important - he didn't march on Icecrown to help the Legion, he did this to avenge his people (again, the idea was not the best, but the impulse was noble).

didn't see the last response, mb.
i don't remember any serious disagreement about the Northrend campaign - but my memory's short. it was to be expected, however.

[Soon-TM]

Who cares if this isn't the same group.

Well, the top leader (one of them, that is) of a world superpower should most definitely know, especially when he's The Heart of the Horde™.

[Maljinwo]

Well, the top leader (one of them, that is) of a world superpower should most definitely know, especially when he's The Heart of the Horde™.

That just means the Horde keeps getting to be kind of a dick to everyone then

[Aucald]

eh?.. i don't remember him and Vashj making imp smoothies. yes, she did say that other fonts of magic exist, but it was never explicitly said back then that they summon demons and chop them into steaks. besides, who gives a shit about demon rights?
i never even thought of Kael as an anti-hero - he was a hero, period. joining forces with the naga and Illidan was reckless and questionable, but he had no other choice. fighting demons and the undead is always laudable. the fact that his interests and Kil'jaeden's coincided isn't particularly important - he didn't march on Icecrown to help the Legion, he did this to avenge his people (again, the idea was not the best, but the impulse was noble).

In WC3: TFT, when Kael first meets Illidan, Illidan explains to Kael how the addiction to the arcane can't be cured but that it can be sated, showing him how to use what would become the Blood Elves' signature Mana Tap ability on a captive Terrorguard. Kael's later outright villainy (such as killing his own people) is later explained to be due to corruption from his consumption of Fel energies in increasing amounts.

Pre-TBC Kael has both shades of villainy and anti-villainy in roughly equal measure - coming across as dangerous and desperate but still trying to achieve a noble end for his people. But shades of his future villainy are pretty evident in both his dialogue and his actions, such as his confession that all he can seem to feel is "hate and rage." Recklessness also sums up WC3 Kael quite well, given that his failed sortie with Arthas' forces at Icecrown cost him not only Felo'melorn but also a number of other elite forces such as Lana'thel, who was later inducted into the Scourge themselves.

[Myradin]

In WC3: TFT, when Kael first meets Illidan, Illidan explains to Kael how the addiction to the arcane can't be cured but that it can be sated, showing him how to use what would become the Blood Elves' signature Mana Tap ability on a captive Terrorguard. Kael's later outright villainy (such as killing his own people) is later explained to be due to corruption from his consumption of Fel energies in increasing amounts.

Pre-TBC Kael has both shades of villainy and anti-villainy in roughly equal measure - coming across as dangerous and desperate but still trying to achieve a noble end for his people. But shades of his future villainy are pretty evident in both his dialogue and his actions, such as his confession that all he can seem to feel is "hate and rage." Recklessness also sums up WC3 Kael quite well, given that his failed sortie with Arthas' forces at Icecrown cost him not only Felo'melorn but also a number of other elite forces such as Lana'thel, who was later inducted into the Scourge themselves.

I think what made him likeable is that he was desperate and in WC3 he still hadn't done anything but drains some mana from demons, a force thats heavily dehumanized even by modern blizzard.

He was certainly more nuanced than just outright serving the legion and trying to destroy the world.

[guro-tchai]

In WC3: TFT, when Kael first meets Illidan, Illidan explains to Kael how the addiction to the arcane can't be cured but that it can be sated, showing him how to use what would become the Blood Elves' signature Mana Tap ability on a captive Terrorguard. Kael's later outright villainy (such as killing his own people) is later explained to be due to corruption from his consumption of Fel energies in increasing amounts.

where can i find this mention of mana tap? i don't remember it being in the game itself.

But shades of his future villainy are pretty evident in both his dialogue and his actions, such as his confession that all he can seem to feel is "hate and rage.

i don't think that negative feelings such as hate and rage are reliable indicators of future moral downfall. his feelings were completely justified.

Recklessness also sums up WC3 Kael quite well, given that his failed sortie with Arthas' forces at Icecrown cost him not only Felo'melorn but also a number of other elite forces such as Lana'thel, who was later inducted into the Scourge themselves.

i would mention loss of his loyal followers due to his desire for vengeance, in part selfish - before his lieutenants and weapons. still, i disagree that the writing was basically on the wall.

edit:
i should also note that the tone of his voiceover was completely different in wc3 in comparison with wow. he's off the rails in BC, and there were hardly any signs of that development in TFT.

[Mehrunes]

It's a cultural thing.
Living in Argentina there's STILL people that despise the British for the whole Malvinas/Falklands war. From 1982
People can't let it go.


Now imagine being a Tauren. All of your life you have fought with centaurs that kill and pillge your people. Hell, Baine was even kidnapped.
Of course he will be resentful of centaurs.

Who cares if this isn't the same group. They are still centaur. And they have been retconned to predate the War of the Ancients.
I'd be suspicious as fuck

Except these centaurs are outright created by a different act of divine mating. They are the magic equivalent of convergent evolution. It'd be like Argentinians being salty about a group of people that just so happens to eat overcooked beans but descended from Arthur and Maeve instead of Adam and Eve.

Arthas was objectively the bad guy, but that doesn't mean everyone opposed to him was by contrast good - the Legion, the Scarlets, Kael, etc. Villains can oppose villains just fine. As for Kael being a hero, well; his own people disagree with you there as does the existing lore and Kael's own story.

"Kael was already a villain in TFT because his people think he's a villain, which they only started to do so in TBC" isn't exactly a sound argument. And the whole premise of "almost no one being surprised by Kael's face heel turn" is rather suspect when the story, particularly how Kael and Vashj were wasted with villain batting continues to be the main criticism of the expansion a decade and a half later.

[SilverLion]

Except these centaurs are outright created by a different act of divine mating. They are the magic equivalent of convergent evolution. It'd be like Argentinians being salty about a group of people that just so happens to eat overcooked beans but descended from Arthur and Maeve instead of Adam and Eve.




"Kael was already a villain in TFT because his people think he's a villain, which they only started to do so in TBC" isn't exactly a sound argument. And the whole premise of "almost no one being surprised by Kael's face heel turn" is rather suspect when the story, particularly how Kael and Vashj were wasted with villain batting continues to be the main criticism of the expansion a decade and a half later.

So serious question. How would the Tauren in universe know that the Isles Centaur are different? Like in universe, how would any Tauren know what we players know as meta knowledge?

Also LMAO at oversimplification of prejudice. "Here's a logical reason not to be a bigot, see it's explained now no reason to hate!" Man do I wish it worked like that. The Argentinian example is pretty spot on by the previous poster. People hold onto prejudice. I'm not sure why Warcraft would be different.

[Aucald]

where can i find this mention of mana tap? i don't remember it being in the game itself.

It's in the in-game dialogue for the cutscene Illidan's Task from WC3: TFT, and also depicted in the Fury of the Sunwell cinematic trailer for TBC which tells much of Kael's story up until then.

i don't think that negative feelings such as hate and rage are reliable indicators of future moral downfall. his feelings were completely justified.

"Negative feelings" would be putting it lightly - a far cry from being only capable of feeling hate and rage. Whether or not those feelings are justified is both immaterial and highly contextual.

i would mention loss of his loyal followers due to his desire for vengeance, in part selfish - before his lieutenants and weapons. still, i disagree that the writing was basically on the wall.

YMMV, I suppose. I thought it was pretty evident, nor did I come out of WC3: TFT thinking Kael was a noble hero or anything of the like. His story, to me, read even then like an arc of descent so I was unsurprised when it became such in TBC.

edit:
i should also note that the tone of his voiceover was completely different in wc3 in comparison with wow. he's off the rails in BC, and there were hardly any signs of that development in TFT.

Listening to Kael's voice-over from WC3: TFT doesn't strike me as someone heroic, much less stable. He's much worse in TBC, sure; but the signs definitely seem present in WC3 as well.

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"Kael was already a villain in TFT because his people think he's a villain, which they only started to do so in TBC" isn't exactly a sound argument. And the whole premise of "almost no one being surprised by Kael's face heel turn" is rather suspect when the story, particularly how Kael and Vashj were wasted with villain batting continues to be the main criticism of the expansion a decade and a half later.

Which isn't at all related to what I said above. I said signs of Kael's later heel-face turn into villainy are present in WC3: TFT, which made his eventual role as an outright villain in TBC less than surprising in my opinion. And Vashj was never presented as anything but a villain in WC3: TFT, her whole schtick with helping Kael is transparent as an attempt to seduce him into joining her and Illidan, which he does in the end. She's most certainly not a force of altruism by any means, she's not even a force for good.

[guro-tchai]

It's in the in-game dialogue for the cutscene Illidan's Task from WC3: TFT, and also depicted in the Fury of the Sunwell cinematic trailer for TBC which tells much of Kael's story up until then.

no explicit mention of cooking demons in the cutcene; cinematic is from BC.
this doesn't count as a sign of his future downfall - because this exact sign is just not present.

Listening to Kael's voice-over from WC3: TFT doesn't strike me as someone heroic, much less stable. He's much worse in TBC, sure; but the signs definitely seem present in WC3 as well.

he wasn't "stable", sure - he wasn't unhinged and calling his former colleagues "blinded half-night elf mongrel". dude who ordered him to be put to death received a mere "bastard", iirc.
and i wasn't saying that his classic VO makes you think he's a hero - his actions *kinda* did. his original VO wasn't batshit, that's all.