Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Spey]

It'd be too asian, even more asian than evoker...it's something like you must have saw this in Aion or something, which was also ruined by new patches :/

[Teriz]

To be honest, you made the same argument in the past about Dragon magic.

Why need Evokers when you could just give this stuff to Mages or Warriors, who could literally mimic the magical powers of Dragons? Wing buffets, Roars, Claws, Breath.. all can be magical or meta-physical abstractions of Draconic attacks to existing classes, which we've seen time and time again. I think your examples were Mages had Dragon's Breath, and Warriors had Dragon Roar.

Yes, and that changed when Blizzard gave us a playable dragon hero that showed us how a dragon class could operate. Alexstraza changed the calculus. There is no such example for Bards.

[Vaedan]

I must have missed it. I will say that that's a bit better than "flamboyant animations", but its still nothing more than a collection of abilities that could fit into any class.

Since this is quickly devolving into whataboutism about the Evoker class (which has always had clear designs and concepts) instead of dealing with the lack of cohesiveness or direction for the Bard concept in WoW, I'll leave you guys to it.

It could not fit to any class, because not all classes use magic. Bards do. Not all classes deal with mind manipulation or inspiring others. Honestly, the only class which comes to my mind, is a Priest. It does not matter that much tough, because bards and could coexist while having similar powers, with different method. I am sure class developers would find many ways how to make ten unique.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

• Prismatic magic already exists, and it's called 'chaos magic'..

Is chaos magic even a thing in the lore beyond Fel being referred to as chaos?

Wowpedia just has a gameplay section on it and I don’t think it’s in chronicles or any novels unless I’m forgetting a mention some where.

[arkanon]

in 2023 WOW we only have three specs left:

Tanky DPS
Healing DPS
Pure DPS

No way they could implement a supply class like EQ's Bard in WOW. So scrap that idea.

I agree with the overall thought process here. It really does feel that way, and its something that many have complained about. Many, in particular M+ players, love it.

[Big Thanks]

It could not fit to any class, because not all classes use magic. Bards do. Not all classes deal with mind manipulation or inspiring others. Honestly, the only class which comes to my mind, is a Priest. It does not matter that much tough, because bards and could coexist while having similar powers, with different method. I am sure class developers would find many ways how to make ten unique.

Auras from paladins and warrior shouts

[Ielenia]

Is chaos magic even a thing in the lore beyond Fel being referred to as chaos?

Wowpedia just has a gameplay section on it and I don’t think it’s in chronicles or any novels unless I’m forgetting a mention some where.

It is, actually. Many of the DH's abilities deal chaos damage. Fel Barrage, Eye Beam, Fel Eruption, Chaos Strike, etc...

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As I said, if Blizzard would make the effort and let majority of NPCs react to your emotes and/or implement more class specific content, it would help a lot... But that's not just question of just bards. That would make world more immersive for all players.

That's true. It would benefit all players. But at the same time, it's technically because of that we don't have class-specific reactions for every NPC in the game: imagine having to do custom reactions for each and every single one of the 13 classes from NPCs. Even if we just make half of the quest-giving/related NPCs react appropriately, that's a lot of stuff that writers have to work to come up with.

But yeah. The bard personality fantasy would have to be conveyed like all the classes do: through their NPC representatives' actions and dialogue. Does it mean the concept suffers? Yeah, unfortunately. But like I said, so do other classes in this game, so it's not something that would work as a deterrent in my mind.

[bloodmoth13]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/datamin...0-1-ptr-331802

Evokers have bloodlust, which is the only universally accepted 'boost' ability in the game. What a stupid article implying that they will add a 'boost' spec because of one word referencing a questing boss fight.
Also they said that evoker tank was right out but nothing in the interview indicated that, they just said that they considered tank in early development but we're concerned about wings getting in people's faces, easily solved with different animations for wings in melee, doesn't dismiss anything about a tank spec

[fazaim]

Bard is ridiculous, let it go. I already quit a whole expansion because of pandas, getting killed by guitarlicks in arena is gonna really do it.

[Vaedan]

It is, actually. Many of the DH's abilities deal chaos damage. Fel Barrage, Eye Beam, Fel Eruption, Chaos Strike, etc...

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That's true. It would benefit all players. But at the same time, it's technically because of that we don't have class-specific reactions for every NPC in the game: imagine having to do custom reactions for each and every single one of the 13 classes from NPCs. Even if we just make half of the quest-giving/related NPCs react appropriately, that's a lot of stuff that writers have to work to come up with.

But yeah. The bard personality fantasy would have to be conveyed like all the classes do: through their NPC representatives' actions and dialogue. Does it mean the concept suffers? Yeah, unfortunately. But like I said, so do other classes in this game, so it's not something that would work as a deterrent in my mind.

Other classes are typically not that social in their core as Bards are. As I said, it might be just fine eventually, it depends on how the class would be implemented. I believe that the class is viable on mechanical level and that there is enough lore and inspiration for the class fantasy. The major concern is that this is RP heavy class, but that is my subjective feeling. Other people might not feel that important for a new class.

I didn't mean that all NPC would need to react differently to all emotes or all classes... But it would be nice if some NPCs could for instance /cheer or /moo or whatever else on you when you for instance use some of your bard ability near them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It is, actually. Many of the DH's abilities deal chaos damage. Fel Barrage, Eye Beam, Fel Eruption, Chaos Strike, etc...

That’s not lore though that’s just gameplay, like with this patch pallys can do Radiance damage but Radiance isn’t an actual thing in the lore.

Skimming the first couple pages of chronicles Chaos isn't mentioned any where nor does it show up on the magic/cosmic chart they made which makes me wonder if it has any actual lore any where beyond being another term for Fel.

[bloodmoth13]

"So what if "one is wind, one is holy"? What's the relevance?"
Priests use hymns as spells, bard already exists confirmed just roll holy priest.
Sarcasm aside, a bard that uses holy magic that plays an instrument for casting animation could easily be achieved by giving that casting animation to a priest. The characters input is playing music, the output is a holy spell. Classes and specs should focus on the output only, the input should be a roleplay thing, and a bard is just input, play music magic happens and magic could be anything.

"Or keep those for the bard. After all, a mage has no place playing a lute to cast their spells much like you claim "Zereth Mortis stuff doesn't fit the bard"."

If you are using music to cast spells you are not roleplaying a mage you are roleplaying a bard, you just use a mages kit to express the output but rather than conjuring magic from arcane spells you do it through music.
You can roleplay as a bard that conjures from any cosmic force with this design.

"That's kind of like saying a priest is just a holy mage."

I mean... Ignoring cultural words like priest or druid and applying universal terms like 'caster, then yes. A holy priest is a holy mage, how they access that magic is irrelevant we know different cultures access magic in different ways, tauren do sun worship to access light magic while humans do not. Priest is used as the function for a tauren sun druid, classes and specs should be culturally agnostic and the flavor of how magic is accessed should be up to the player to decide.
A bard that uses holy hymns to heal could just as easily be a holy priest the same way tauren priests are really sun druids.

[Big Thanks]

Bard is ridiculous, let it go. I already quit a whole expansion because of pandas, getting killed by guitarlicks in arena is gonna really do it.

The new expansion of hearthstone is Music themed
Each class has its own music genre:

DK - Metal
Druid - Hippie
DH - Emo
Hunter - Folk
Mage - Electronic
Paladin - Disco
Priest - Pop
Rogue - Hip Hop
Warlock - Classical
Shaman - Jazz
Warrior - Rock

Come on....tell me this is not FUN

[Triceron]

Yes, and that changed when Blizzard gave us a playable dragon hero that showed us how a dragon class could operate. Alexstraza changed the calculus. There is no such example for Bards.

Yeah but Evokers don't actually play anything like Alexstrazsa.

Have you played an Evoker? Their entire rotation and mechanics are nothing like Alexstrazsa's in Heroes of the Storm. They're a completely new class that simply borrows a couple spells from her, otherwise their mechanics are completely new and different and their theme is centralized to having all 5 Dragonflight's powers, whereas Alexstrasza only uses Red Dragon magic. Alexstrazsa also has Dragon form specific abilities that Evokers do not.

If anything, Alexstrazsa is less than 1/5th of what an Evoker is.
And I can extend this to other classes too. Chen is less than 1/5th of what a Monk is.
Arthas is less than 1/5th of what a player Death Knight is.
Illidan is less than 1/5th of what a player Demon Hunter is.

And if we apply that logic to Bard, then any existing hero would be less-than 20% of the theme and mechanics of whatever new class we get. Heroes would mostly be new material, created out of thin air by Blizzard, with homages to keep it all familiar to the Warcraft world and history.

[Ielenia]

That’s not lore though that’s just gameplay, like with this patch pallys can do Radiance damage but Radiance isn’t an actual thing in the lore.

Skimming the first couple pages of chronicles Chaos isn't mentioned any where nor does it show up on the magic/cosmic chart they made which makes me wonder if it has any actual lore any where beyond being another term for Fel.

That's because 'chaos' is not a primordial force, but actually magic that combines all of the primordial forces together. Somehow forcefully, I'd wager, considering 'holy' and 'void' are part of it.

[Vaedan]

Yeah but Evokers don't actually play anything like Alexstrazsa.

Have you played an Evoker? Their entire rotation and mechanics are nothing like Alexstrazsa's in Heroes of the Storm. They're a completely new class that simply borrows a couple spells from her, otherwise their mechanics are completely new and different and their theme is centralized to having all 5 Dragonflight's powers, whereas Alexstrasza only uses Red Dragon magic. Alexstrazsa also has Dragon form specific abilities that Evokers do not.

If anything, Alexstrazsa is less than 1/5th of what an Evoker is.
And I can extend this to other classes too. Chen is less than 1/5th of what a Monk is.
Arthas is less than 1/5th of what a player Death Knight is.
Illidan is less than 1/5th of what a player Demon Hunter is.

And if we apply that logic to Bard, then any existing hero with Musical talent would be just as applicable as being less-than 20% of the theme and mechanics of whatever new class we get.

If we take HotS as an valid source of inspiration for WoW classes, than Bard can be inspired by Lucio. Then there is new Hearthstone expansion, full of bards. Then there is ETC and Death Metal Knight on Darkmoon Island. There was also necrolord bard NPC in Maldraxxus. Plus Automa in Zereth Mortis with their musical language and abilities definitely gave the bard vibes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's because 'chaos' is not a primordial force, but actually magic that combines all of the primordial forces together. Somehow forcefully, I'd wager, considering 'holy' and 'void' are part of it.

Ok but where are you getting that from? Is it said in a quest some where, a novel, wc1-3 or what?

[Ielenia]

"So what if "one is wind, one is holy"? What's the relevance?"
Priests use hymns as spells, bard already exists confirmed just roll holy priest.
Sarcasm aside, a bard that uses holy magic that plays an instrument for casting animation could easily be achieved by giving that casting animation to a priest.

But it wouldn't be a bard, just like giving metamorphosis to the warlocks didn't make them into demon hunters.

If you are using music to cast spells you are not roleplaying a mage you are roleplaying a bard, you just use a mages kit to express the output but rather than conjuring magic from arcane spells you do it through music.
You can roleplay as a bard that conjures from any cosmic force with this design.

But this isn't about roleplaying, this is about playing an actual bard class, with its own unique abilities, own unique tier set bonuses, own unique lore and NPCs, etc. If I just want to roleplay as a bard, I'd play D&D.

A bard that uses holy hymns to heal could just as easily be a holy priest the same way tauren priests are really sun druids.

And a demo hunter that uses demon transformation to deal damage could easily just be a demonology warlock. A monk could just be a rogue with fist weapons. Etc, etc, etc. That is a meaningless argument. Priests have a small handful of hymn spells, but that doesn't stop the bard class just like shamans having a handful of fire abilities didn't stop the mages and warlocks from having specs dedicated to that damage type.

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Ok but where are you getting that from? Is it said in a quest some where, a novel, wc1-3 or what?

I wouldn't know that as I don't own many books (very few, actually) but I know 'chaos' as a damage type existed since the WC3 days.

[Triceron]

I wouldn't know that as I don't own many books (very few, actually) but I know 'chaos' as a damage type existed since the WC3 days.

WC3 damage types were more gimmicky mechanics than true lore. Most of that has been retconned anyways, by way of Chronicles and the cosmology of things. Just like 'Hero Armor' and 'Siege' damage type don't translate at all into WoW lore or mechanics. Chaos is also one of those oddly named things. Also you get some weirdness when considering mechanics too, like the fact that all magical (auto) attacks are affected by Armor except the Chaos type.

Like Mages using Arcane to create fire and elemental, rather than them being Elemental magic users as implied in WC3 and prior. "Arcane" didn't formally exist, and all of that lore was create in WoW and retroactively applied that all back to the RTS games.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I wouldn't know that as I don't own many books (very few, actually) but I know 'chaos' as a damage type existed since the WC3 days.

It’s my understand that WC3 Chaos turned into a Fel with wow as Fel wasn’t a proper thing in WC3 which is why Fel is also known as chaos.

From the WC3 manual

Born of the Eredar race, warlocks are absolutely corrupt and unimaginably powerful. Their chaos magics have burnt out whole worlds and annihilated countless species over the aeons. Kil'jaeden taught the orcs the secrets of warlock magics, but the orcs could never master the powers of entropy and destruction as well as the wicked Eredar. Under Archimonde's command, the warlocks serve as the Legion's tacticians and strategists.

Just searching around I can’t seem to find any thing that describes chaos as a magic like you have other then this wowpedia page which is about game play and has no citations we could refer to for lore.

Chaos doesn’t seem to be an actual thing lord wise other then just another word for Fel.