Baine's Purpose

[Aucald]

no explicit mention of cooking demons in the cutcene; cinematic is from BC.
this doesn't count as a sign of his future downfall - because this exact sign is just not present.

"But there are ways to feed the hunger. Follow me, and I will grant your people more magic than they can imagine." That method ended up being Mana Tap, which Illidan taught to Kael, Kael taught to Rommath, and Rommath brought back to the Blood Elves on Azeroth (attributing the technique to Kael). The TBC cinematic is visually depicting the same meeting Kael had with Illidan in WC3: TFT, as well; as it was telling Kael's backstory. That Illidan has been tapping Fel energies was pointedly shown in Chronicle Vol. 3 (pg. 139-140) as well: "[s]oon, the fel gnawed at his mind, causing him to become more paranoid of his people, believing them to think of him as a failure. Many believed that the fel magic made him unstable."

[loras]

Honestly i feel that this quest was the first time the character began to actually come into its own, the first time he took careful steps out of his flat-ness and into being some sort of interesting character.

Killing him off at this point would be entirely counterproductive.

[guro-tchai]

"But there are ways to feed the hunger. Follow me, and I will grant your people more magic than they can imagine." That method ended up being Mana Tap, which Illidan taught to Kael...

i don't doubt that it is what happened according to lore; i'm saying that both the cinematic and Chronicles are posterior to wc3, the game. Kael wasn't consuming demons for survival in 2003 - everything else is just a retcon to justify him becoming a loot piñata, as the Cdev of the time didn't have any other ideas how to show us the TFT cast.
this is not a sign (allegedly, from 2003) of his future downfall (in 2006), because we didn't have this sign at the time in TFT.

[Grazrug]

In WC3: TFT, when Kael first meets Illidan, Illidan explains to Kael how the addiction to the arcane can't be cured but that it can be sated, showing him how to use what would become the Blood Elves' signature Mana Tap ability on a captive Terrorguard. Kael's later outright villainy (such as killing his own people) is later explained to be due to corruption from his consumption of Fel energies in increasing amounts.

Pre-TBC Kael has both shades of villainy and anti-villainy in roughly equal measure - coming across as dangerous and desperate but still trying to achieve a noble end for his people. But shades of his future villainy are pretty evident in both his dialogue and his actions, such as his confession that all he can seem to feel is "hate and rage." Recklessness also sums up WC3 Kael quite well, given that his failed sortie with Arthas' forces at Icecrown cost him not only Felo'melorn but also a number of other elite forces such as Lana'thel, who was later inducted into the Scourge themselves.

Well at the end of the day he and Sylvanas are the heroes that have statues erected in their honor in Silvermoon. I think that speaks volumes about their reputation. No matter the path Blizzard forced them on in order to have more raid bosses.

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"But there are ways to feed the hunger. Follow me, and I will grant your people more magic than they can imagine." That method ended up being Mana Tap, which Illidan taught to Kael, Kael taught to Rommath, and Rommath brought back to the Blood Elves on Azeroth (attributing the technique to Kael). The TBC cinematic is visually depicting the same meeting Kael had with Illidan in WC3: TFT, as well; as it was telling Kael's backstory. That Illidan has been tapping Fel energies was pointedly shown in Chronicle Vol. 3 (pg. 139-140) as well: "[s]oon, the fel gnawed at his mind, causing him to become more paranoid of his people, believing them to think of him as a failure. Many believed that the fel magic made him unstable."

I am sure the fel sucking happened at patch 2.4. prior he collected energies from mana forges.

[Aucald]

Well at the end of the day he and Sylvanas are the heroes that have statues erected in their honor in Silvermoon. I think that speaks volumes about their reputation. No matter the path Blizzard forced them on in order to have more raid bosses.

Statues do not a hero make. History is replete with villains and tyrants who erected statues of themselves.

I am sure the fel sucking happened at patch 2.4. prior he collected energies from mana forges.

Not according to Chronicle Vol. 3. Usurping control of the mana forges happened well after Kael learned how to mana tap, as well.

[Grazrug]

Statues do not a hero make. History is replete with villains and tyrants who erected statues of themselves.

One man's tyrant is another man's hero.

[Mehrunes]

So serious question. How would the Tauren in universe know that the Isles Centaur are different? Like in universe, how would any Tauren know what we players know as meta knowledge?

Also LMAO at oversimplification of prejudice. "Here's a logical reason not to be a bigot, see it's explained now no reason to hate!" Man do I wish it worked like that. The Argentinian example is pretty spot on by the previous poster. People hold onto prejudice. I'm not sure why Warcraft would be different.

Because we learn about the Dragon Isles' Centaurs and Baine being a faction leader would have read the reports (especially since he can't waste his time being Anduin's doormat with Anduin gone for now). And the Argentinian example is not "pretty spot on" because it compares apples to oranges. If that's "pretty spot on" then Argentinians can just as well be prejudiced towards Kryptonians.

[Aucald]

One man's tyrant is another man's hero.

And the inverse is, sadly, equally true.

[Grazrug]

And the inverse is, sadly, equally true.

I played the blood elf campaign multiple times back then. Imagine my rage when TBC came out. I saw my childhood go up in flames because making raid bosses is all Blizzard can do.

[Aucald]

I played the blood elf campaign multiple times back then. Imagine my rage when TBC came out. I saw my childhood go up in flames because making raid bosses is all Blizzard can do.

That's... an extreme view of a subjective turn of events in a video game story. The best I could muster at what I considered an unfortunate story outcome in WoW was a species of disappointment - I can't say I felt any rage, nor did I feel as if my childhood "went up in flames." I assume you're being hyperbolic here, or at least I hope you are. No one's childhood should be affected in any real way by a video game's story going off the rails.

[Grazrug]

That's... an extreme view of a subjective turn of events in a video game story. The best I could muster at what I considered an unfortunate story outcome in WoW was a species of disappointment - I can't say I felt any rage, nor did I feel as if my childhood "went up in flames." I assume you're being hyperbolic here, or at least I hope you are. No one's childhood should be affected in any real way by a video game's story going off the rails.

I was always invested in strategy games. And Warcraft 3 was the best. The story was mesmerizing. So I expected great things from the MMO. But now it's gone. My favorite race was ruined. So I switched to trolls and Goblins instead. So far it's an acceptable replacement until the day comes Kael'thas might get the respect he deserves.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

They can still turn the Grimtotem into a Horde-aligned subfaction in the same vein as the Dark Iron in Alliance. Would make the tauren more interesting and varied as a race. I mean, they don't even have to be an allied race, but a fleshed out in-lore faction with some outward appearance options added to the tauren modification, similar to how you can basically create a Wildhammer dwarf with the regular dwarf option nowadays. The meat of this addition would be in what they bring to the tauren story.

The Grimtotem are the only dissenter group the Tauren have. Pacify them and then the Tauren become a completely homogenous culture, and there is no longer any contrast that highlights how unusually peaceful the Tauren are among the races of Kalimdor. Eliminating the Grimtotem also means that you can't justify fighting Tauren mobs as fodder, which is bad creatively because the Tauren are big and make for visually intimidating enemies, the animators put a lot of work into their animation, not using those models is a waste.

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Having the Grimtotem taking over the Tauren is what I support. Baine made them too soft. It is about time they start smashing skulls of the enemies of the Horde once again.

Again, the Tauren's role in the narrative - their hat - is to be the token good guys to help balance out the violent Horde. Transforming the Tauren into another race predisposed to violence ruins the Tauren and harms the Horde narrative as well.

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The main problem with Baine is he didn't do anything after Teldrassil and has generally come across as whiny rather than principled

This is not an issue exclusive to Baine. Almost every character in WoW is complacent when they shouldn't be. The other Horde faction leaders sat around and did nothing while Sylvanas was happening. The Alliance has powerful forces and characters like the Night Elves, Malfurion, the Draenei and Velen, etc, but they sit around and do nothing. Jaina was capable of flooding Orgrimmar in the Tides of War novel and was talked down from doing so, but then when Teldrassil was torched she inexplicably doesn't attempt to flood Orgrimmar again even though she could. The Argent Crusade inexplicably does nothing in between Wrath and Legion. The Shado-Pan don't pursue Garrosh through the Dark Portal to avenge the Golden Lotus, and so on. Everyone except for a small handful of characters starring in the current expansion is in stasis. That's Blizzard's writing. They can't write a living world where everybody is doing something all the time like Falcom does with Trails.

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Tyrande has already accepted this and has with that sanctioned the fact that there will be no justice for her murdered people. That is the same thing Baine did for Taurajo, with the slight difference that with the Nightelves it really WAS a civilian target with no way of fighting back and the fact that it was about thousand times the population of Taurajo that was murdered.

Camp Taurajo and Teldrassil are not in any way comparable. Camp Taurajo was an accident. It was bombed due to misinformation.

Teldrassil was burned to spite a dying elf.

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Also Baine is the worst and I hope he is gonna die soon to be replaced by Magatha so that the Tauren might get their fangs back as it was in Warcraft 3.

The Tauren do have fangs. They were noticeable in Warcraft 3 when the Orcs were trying to change and not be mass murderers. In WoW the Tauren's fangs are eclipsed by the sheer brutality of the rest of the Horde, be it the Forsaken performing Unit 731 horrific human experimentation upon people and enslaving others, or the Blood Elves sucking the life force out of their victims and torturing an angel, or Orcs going on mass murder sprees.

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Sylvanas was punished

Sylvanas did not burn the tree by herself. Her army carried out her orders to invade Ashenvale unprovoked, wipe out villages, and then burn Teldrassil. And then when the rest of the Horde found out what they had done, they continued to serve her and attack the Alliance rather than denounce her. The rest of the Horde is an accomplice to her crimes. But Blizzard likes to punish one figure like Garrosh or Sylvanas as a scapegoat and pretend that the rest of the Horde isn't at fault and that there is nothing culturally wrong with them.

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Rastakhan will never be avenged.

Get in line. King Llane's murderer Garona is alive and well, and King Llane wasn't an aggressor against Garona's people like Rastakhan became when he joined the Horde's war against the Alliance.

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Mayla is a cool character too. Moooo

I can't remember anything about Mayla other than that she is a female Tauren. The cool uncle tauren who sounded like a football player or an announcer from the Highmountain world quests was more memorable. But all of the allied race leaders are forgettable.

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Considering the life purpose of both Baine and Magatha is to topple Horde leaders, Baine's efforts ended with him in prison twice, one time in hell. Magatha on the other hand managed on the first try.

And got her tribe banished, and was fortunate that it was only banishment. If Baine had not been handling the situation then they might have been eliminated by Garrosh.

[Grazrug]

Teldrassil was the last big port of the alliance on Kalimdor. It was where Stormwind would have landed their forces next with Theramore gone. Taurajo was just a small hunting village with no strategic importance. Hawthorne's intentions didn't matter because the situation was already being escalated under his orders. So the Orc allies of the Tauren hunted him down and avenged the hunters, shamans and civilians that died in the fire bombing from the dwarfs. Praise be to heroes like Karthog and Gann Stonespire who actually enacted revenge while Baine was doing nothing and even went as far as targeting Taurajo as a legitemate target to be destroyed. No other race leader has ever done this and it will be a black stain on his reputation for as long as this game is active.

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The Grimtotem are the only dissenter group the Tauren have. Pacify them and then the Tauren become a completely homogenous culture, and there is no longer any contrast that highlights how unusually peaceful the Tauren are among the races of Kalimdor. Eliminating the Grimtotem also means that you can't justify fighting Tauren mobs as fodder, which is bad creatively because the Tauren are big and make for visually intimidating enemies, the animators put a lot of work into their animation, not using those models is a waste.

- - - Updated - - -



Again, the Tauren's role in the narrative - their hat - is to be the token good guys to help balance out the violent Horde. Transforming the Tauren into another race predisposed to violence ruins the Tauren and harms the Horde narrative as well.

- - - Updated - - -



This is not an issue exclusive to Baine. Almost every character in WoW is complacent when they shouldn't be. The other Horde faction leaders sat around and did nothing while Sylvanas was happening. The Alliance has powerful forces and characters like the Night Elves, Malfurion, the Draenei and Velen, etc, but they sit around and do nothing. Jaina was capable of flooding Orgrimmar in the Tides of War novel and was talked down from doing so, but then when Teldrassil was torched she inexplicably doesn't attempt to flood Orgrimmar again even though she could. The Argent Crusade inexplicably does nothing in between Wrath and Legion. The Shado-Pan don't pursue Garrosh through the Dark Portal to avenge the Golden Lotus, and so on. Everyone except for a small handful of characters starring in the current expansion is in stasis. That's Blizzard's writing. They can't write a living world where everybody is doing something all the time like Falcom does with Trails.

- - - Updated - - -



Camp Taurajo and Teldrassil are not in any way comparable. Camp Taurajo was an accident. It was bombed due to misinformation.

Teldrassil was burned to spite a dying elf.

- - - Updated - - -



The Tauren do have fangs. They were noticeable in Warcraft 3 when the Orcs were trying to change and not be mass murderers. In WoW the Tauren's fangs are eclipsed by the sheer brutality of the rest of the Horde, be it the Forsaken performing Unit 731 horrific human experimentation upon people and enslaving others, or the Blood Elves sucking the life force out of their victims and torturing an angel, or Orcs going on mass murder sprees.

- - - Updated - - -



Sylvanas did not burn the tree by herself. Her army carried out her orders to invade Ashenvale unprovoked, wipe out villages, and then burn Teldrassil. And then when the rest of the Horde found out what they had done, they continued to serve her and attack the Alliance rather than denounce her. The rest of the Horde is an accomplice to her crimes. But Blizzard likes to punish one figure like Garrosh or Sylvanas as a scapegoat and pretend that the rest of the Horde isn't at fault and that there is nothing culturally wrong with them.

- - - Updated - - -



Get in line. King Llane's murderer Garona is alive and well, and King Llane wasn't an aggressor against Garona's people like Rastakhan became when he joined the Horde's war against the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -



I can't remember anything about Mayla other than that she is a female Tauren. The cool uncle tauren who sounded like a football player or an announcer from the Highmountain world quests was more memorable. But all of the allied race leaders are forgettable.

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And got her tribe banished, and was fortunate that it was only banishment. If Baine had not been handling the situation then they might have been eliminated by Garrosh.

Rastakhan had done exactly nothing against the alliance ever. He was killed before he could give orders. Be thankful that Talanji betrayed her own people when she accepted the peace treaty. Another leader with a spine would have actually launched a counter offensive against Kul Tiras. Also Garona was under Gul'dan's mind control when she killed Llane. And Stormwind was the biggest threat against the Horde. Doomhammer knew this which is why taking their leadership out was key to taking the city. And it worked.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

All original race leaders get the shaft.

Eh. Cairne had a good, dignified exit. Thrall also had a decent exit and a satisfying retirement of his character. Vol'jin was wasted but was never ruined or humiliated. Varian had a decent exit. Mekkatorque never got any attention but was never humiliated. Malfurion and Tyrande were fortunate to get a decent amount of screentime over the years, though the treatment of their characters has varied. Magni didn't get focus, and was then written out for the much more interesting Council of Three Hammers, which Blizzard wound never doing anything with. Then he came back and turned into a generic Bronzebeard voiced by Carlos Larkin.

Sylvanas' problem is that she was a cool evil background character who was then brought into the foreground, and there is no way to satisfactorily deal with her character without killing her.

[Grazrug]

Eh. Cairne had a good, dignified exit. Thrall also had a decent exit and a satisfying retirement of his character. Vol'jin was wasted but was never ruined or humiliated. Varian had a decent exit. Mekkatorque never got any attention but was never humiliated. Malfurion and Tyrande were fortunate to get a decent amount of screentime over the years, though the treatment of their characters has varied. Magni didn't get focus, and was then written out for the much more interesting Council of Three Hammers, which Blizzard wound never doing anything with. Then he came back and turned into a generic Bronzebeard voiced by Carlos Larkin.

Sylvanas' problem is that she was a cool evil background character who was then brought into the foreground, and there is no way to satisfactorily deal with her character without killing her.

Vol'jin is an understatement. I know more about Umbric than him.

[guro-tchai]

That's... an extreme view of a subjective turn of events in a video game story. The best I could muster at what I considered an unfortunate story outcome in WoW was a species of disappointment - I can't say I felt any rage, nor did I feel as if my childhood "went up in flames." I assume you're being hyperbolic here, or at least I hope you are. No one's childhood should be affected in any real way by a video game's story going off the rails.

feeling is good. you should try it sometimes.
something felt off when you mentioned Kael's henchmen and Felo'melorn and ignored average randos, whose pain of losing everything after the Fall of Quel'thalas was essentially exploited by their prince, who was supposed to protect them (compare it to Lor'themar's reserved approach, who wanted to preserve the survivors and avoid sending them to the Northrend bloodbath).
feeling devastated due to Kael'thas suddenly became a maniac after being someone pursuing justice for his people is natural. my sister, who introduced me to warcraft, had a similar stance to Grazrug's - she had a sense of embitterment after BC, perceived it is a travesty. she may be biased as she had a thing for boys with long hair, but points she made were similar to ones made in this thread, if not even more radical.
yes, that's kind of a personal attack/derailment, infract or ban me.

[Aucald]

feeling is good. you should try it sometimes.
something felt off when you mentioned Kael's henchmen and Felo'melorn and ignored average randos, whose pain of losing everything after the Fall of Quel'thalas was essentially exploited by their prince, who was supposed to protect them (compare it to Lor'themar's reserved approach, who wanted to preserve the survivors and avoid sending them to the Northrend bloodbath).
feeling devastated due to Kael'thas suddenly became a maniac after being someone pursuing justice for his people is natural. my sister, who introduced me to warcraft, had a similar stance to Grazrug's - she had a sense of embitterment after BC, perceived it is a travesty. she may be biased as she had a thing for boys with long hair, but points she made were similar to ones made in this thread, if not even more radical.
yes, that's kind of a personal attack/derailment, infract or ban me.

I feel just fine, but I don't think I've ever had any video game story define my entire childhood. That's a huge feeling to have over what is, in my view, a relatively minor aspect of life. My parents' divorce had a hand in defining my childhood, for example - not the fact that a character in a video game did something dumb. I can't speak to your, or Grazrug's, emotional tenor or personal experiences with Warcraft's story - I can only speak to mine. Perhaps it's an age thing, as my experience with WC3 was in my late teens and WoW in my 20s, so perhaps it just doesn't cut as deep or profoundly. Or perhaps you're just more emotional, I don't know.

I don't perceive any personal attack in your reply, so unsure if you meant to attack me and failed or simply didn't. Simply put, I saw Kael's heel-face turn coming in WC3: TFT (or at least that was my impression from the story), so when it was realized in TBC it didn't affect me greatly as I was prepared for it, more or less.

[Grazrug]

feeling is good. you should try it sometimes.
something felt off when you mentioned Kael's henchmen and Felo'melorn and ignored average randos, whose pain of losing everything after the Fall of Quel'thalas was essentially exploited by their prince, who was supposed to protect them (compare it to Lor'themar's reserved approach, who wanted to preserve the survivors and avoid sending them to the Northrend bloodbath).
feeling devastated due to Kael'thas suddenly became a maniac after being someone pursuing justice for his people is natural. my sister, who introduced me to warcraft, had a similar stance to Grazrug's - she had a sense of embitterment after BC, perceived it is a travesty. she may be biased as she had a thing for boys with long hair, but points she made were similar to ones made in this thread, if not even more radical.
yes, that's kind of a personal attack/derailment, infract or ban me.

I don't feel offended by this. Why would they ban you for having an opinion?

[Super Dickmann]

And got her tribe banished, and was fortunate that it was only banishment. If Baine had not been handling the situation then they might have been eliminated by Garrosh.

It does speak to Baine's character that the penalty he gave the woman who killed his father and organized a coup that lead to a civil war in his capital city is punished in the exact same way as the guys who were upset about Taurajo.

[guro-tchai]

Perhaps it's an age thing, as my experience with WC3 was in my late teens and WoW in my 20s, so perhaps it just doesn't cut as deep or profoundly. Or perhaps you're just more emotional, I don't know.

most likely - we experienced wc3 as children, and might as well be excessively emotional personally.

I don't perceive any personal attack in your reply, so unsure if you meant to attack me and failed or simply didn't.

i didn't mean to attack you, i just think that there's a nonzero chance you could be offended by my words, interpreting them as an accusation of heartlessness, constructing, like in matters of "constructive treason" a case for lèse-majesté. or even be offended that i consider you to be that batshit in this case lol. anyway, personal foibles.