Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Ielenia]

How would you make the bard stand out in any meaningful way apart from "But it's a bard!"?

I think Blizzard could give the bard a different kind of mobility: allowing the bard to cast spells while moving as baseline. Either as baseline, or on quick-recharge cooldowns.

One possible idea is just like music is composed by strumming together key notes, the bard could have some sort of 'combo' for their abilities, like you use one ability, and one, two or three other abilities get a special bonus effect: increased damage/healing, healing a second target, healing and putting a shield, damage and a dot, etc.

Another idea is that the bard could 'build' their songspells by 'comboing' notes. Let's say, for example, the bard has four notes: A, B, C and D. After selecting, say, three notes, a spell is cast, depending on the notes. For example: AAA is damage, AAB is damage AoE, ABA is healing, ABB is healing AoE, ACA is personal defensive, ACB is group CD, etc. It's how the old Magicka game works, for those who know it. Of course, this particular idea is much trickier to implement than the others.

Also, another possible difference is that the spellcaster DPS spec could be based on Holy damage, which would differentiate it from the other caster DPS.

As to the implementation: Healing / supporting seems a nobrainer, but i have too little faith in breaking up the triune of roles to really consider a pure support specc, as such they'd need a dps specc, or weirder: a tank specc.

I think the bard could easily have three specs, and even four specs: healer, spellcaster, melee damage is one possibility; healer, spellcaster and ranged damage is another. And, if Blizzard is feeling particularly generous: healer, spellcaster, melee and ranged damage. Four specs.

DPS could be an interesting combination of mental/shadow magic and audio/shockwave/wind magic, maybe borrowing a bit into themes of decay as a nod to metal music.

My opinion is that the melee spec would be a combination of melee attacks combined with sound magic, mostly instant-casting, or building stacks to make a spell instant cast.

Tanking seems most difficult to imagine, it'd have to be a dancer/dodger sort of thing i'd say, using magic to steel yourself as well. Seems unlikely though.

Myself, I don't see the bard having a tanking spec. Feels too shoe-horned in, IMO.

[Triceron]

We could stop the "Does Bard have any legitimacy in regards to being added to WoW?" discussion and could instead continue the more interesting "How could bard be implemented in a way that actually adds anything to WoW?" discussion.

I think Blizzard needs to set a standard for what a Support/Boost role would be in the trinity before we can really discuss a Bard.

The Evoker rumors are a big step towards that if they are actually planning it to have some support abilities.

[Ielenia]

I think Blizzard needs to set a standard for what a Support/Boost role would be in the trinity before we can really discuss a Bard.

Not really. Bards can easily fit in WoW's "trinity" without any discussion about "support".

[Kaleredar]

Monks didn't exist until Bliz decided there was a secret island full of them.
Demon Hunters didn't exist until Bliz decided there was a secret jail full of them.
Evokers didn't exist until Bliz decided there was a secret jail on a secret island full of them.

Pandaren Monks have been around as long as there have been Pandaren in the Lore (what do you think Chen is?,) Demon hunters have been around since Warcraft 3 and Illidan always had a cadre of Demon hunter apostles. Drakthyr are just less roided-out versions of Drakonids with wings, which have long been prevalant throughout WoW lore as servants of the dragonflights.

And of course if you're extending the "Blizzard can add bards because they can add anything" then of course they could add bards... Or Spellswords... Or tinkers... Or Space Marines... Or a race where you just play as the lost vikings. There's nothing special about Bards that somehow predisposes them to be lore-relevant or interesting, and I don't find "well one guy plays as a funny horny bard man on a popular DND podcast!" to be particularly compelling.

Like, if you're gonna add a class that's sort of generic there are many more pre-existing ones in WoW lore. Tinkers are a common go-to. Battlemages, Wardens, Necromancers, I could go on. And if you're gonna conjure up a new race out of the ether to make a new hero class, like Drakthyr, do something more interesting than a guy with a lute.

[Ielenia]

Pandaren Monks have been around as long as there have been Pandaren in the Lore (what do you think Chen is?,)

Chen was, up until the Mists of Pandaria expansion launched, just a wandering pandaren with a dwarven-like love for beer and crafting beer. He wasn't a monk or martial artist until Blizzard "upgraded" Chen for the MoP expansion.

[Daedius]

Tenacious D make for great bards as demonstrated in this video;

https://youtu.be/bZBwgz-ANwA (NSFW)

[Triceron]

Not really. Bards can easily fit in WoW's "trinity" without any discussion about "support".

Yeah, they could make it a 3 tank spec class if they wanted to.

But no one would ever expect or want that out of a Bard. Having at least one Support spec is where it makes the most sense. Why bother with a standard Heal/DPS character? The whole point of a Bard is to explore a Support niche that WoW doesn't yet have.

[Wangming]

Yeah, they could make it a 3 tank spec class if they wanted to.

But no one would ever expect or want that out of a Bard. Having at least one Support spec is where it makes the most sense. Why bother with a standard Heal/DPS character? The whole point of a Bard is to explore a Support niche that WoW doesn't yet have.

Bard is a physical ranged DPS in Final Fantasy XIV. It has support abilities but isn't framed as a support class. Just saying.

[Triceron]

Bard is a physical ranged DPS in Final Fantasy XIV. It has support abilities but isn't framed as a support class. Just saying.

That's all it would need, tbh.

[Teriz]

Right, meaning Bards can expand to having a traditional music theme, as already exists in Warcraft like Wardrummers, Harpists and Lute players.

Okay, and if this is sharing the class with the ETC, what would the base abilities be? Again, a class needs to have abilities that all specs can use.

Hearthstone has a new expansion with plenty of music themes to mine.

Yes, those themes are a Blingtron that does rap music, Draenei doing disco, DJ Milhouse Manastorm, a troll/gnome/elf/goblin boy band, and a Vulpera jazzman.

As demonstrated below you don't need to expand the ETC concept much in order to construct a viable class concept. Perhaps change the tempo of the music from Heavy metal (DPS) to rock (Tank) to jazz (Healing) to separate the specs. However, there's nothing wrong with a concept where the guitar is the instrument of choice (destruction) for the class. It even works out in the weapons table and solves the issue of a Bard class needing instruments of some type. All we need are axes, swords, and maces that double as musical instruments.

- - - Updated - - -

We could stop the "Does Bard have any legitimacy in regards to being added to WoW?" discussion and could instead continue the more interesting "How could bard be implemented in a way that actually adds anything to WoW?" discussion.

I mean that's kinda the main thing, players always want more stuff, but rarely do they ever think how said "more stuff" would be different from what they have already.
It's like with the dark rangers and necromancer nonsense; that type of gameplay is entirely available already.
In the case of bard it's different as there's not much resembling it in the game, but that is not without reason given how poorly it (seems to) fit.

So how would you lot implement it? I mean we literally just got a limited range high mobility healer added that has many of the sorts of mechanics i could see a bard having.


How would you make the bard stand out in any meaningful way apart from "But it's a bard!"?

This is why its important to have a concept that has a hero character with unique abilities. When you have that, you can simply pull abilities from it and those abilities tend to already be distinct from existing concepts AND come from Blizzard so they fit WoW by default.

If we look at the ETC hero from HotS, we automatically see multiple roles that can be pulled from it;

Abilities:
Rockstar: Performing abilities adds adds armor (tanking)
Powerslide: Slides, dealing damage and adds a slow (DPS)
Face Melt: Deals damage and knocks target back (DPS)
Guitar Solo: Semi channel that Heals over time (support)
Mosh Pit: AoE channel that stuns (tanking or DPS)
Stage Dive: Leap to a target location and deal damage and slow (DPS or tanking)
Block Party: Gives an ally a stack of armor that lasts 8 seconds. (support)
Speed Metal: Using abilities gives nearby allies increased movement speed (support)
Echo Pedal: Release a pulse of rock energy, increasing damage done to enemies in an AoE (DPS or tanking)

Talents:
Crowd Surfer: Powerslide allows player to travel over walls and terrain. If no enemies are hit, reduce cool down and refund mana cost.
Hammer-on: While Guitar Solo is active, your attacks deal more damage
Tour Bus: Mosh Pit refreshes the cool down of Powerslide, and the ETC can power slide during mosh pit, which increases it duration by 2 seconds
Prog Rock: Guitar Solo also heals nearby allies
Guitar Hero: While Guitar Solo is active, ETC heals for a % of his damage dealt. Abilities increase the duration of Guitar Solo by 0.5 seconds.
Agressive Shredding: Abilities reduce the cool down of Guitar Solo.
Encore: Face Melt leaves behind an amp which knocks enemies away again 2 seconds later
Show Stopper: After using Powerslide, reduce damage taken for 4 seconds
Death Metal: Upon dying, a ghost perform Mosh Pit at ETC's location
Pinball Wizard: Powerslide increases the damage of Face Melt

It's rather easy to build from that base.

Attacks would be melee based, utilizing the concept of the electric guitar meaning electric based melee abilities;



The electric thematic could be utilized throughout the class, with AoE shocks, bolts of electricity, and the aforementioned melee attacks laced with electricity. The class could perhaps also imbue their allies' attacks with an electrical nature damage buff.

Tanks would build upon Mosh Pit, Powerslide, Encore, Echo Pedal, Rockstar, Guitar Hero, Show Stopper, and Face Melt.

DPS would build upon Powerslide, Echo Pedal, Stage Dive, Hammer-On, and Pinball Wizard.

Healing would build upon Guitar Solo, Guitar Hero, Prog Rock, Block Party, Speed Metal, and Aggressive Shredding

Expansion of those abilities could be Death Metal allowing players to perform a different spell based on specialization. For example, tanks could perform Mosh Pit on death, but DPS could perform Echo Pedal, and Healers would perform Prog Rock or Speed Metal. An ability like Guitar Riff could be used by the healing spec to give a series of heals or buffs to a target. For example, if a target needs healing over a set of time, Guitar Riff could give the target a low heal, then 2 seconds later a larger heal, and finally 2 seconds later a big heal. Amp or Loud Speaker could be a cool down that would amplify the range and effects of you and your allies abilities for a short duration. Duet could be an ability where you can link up with another player and give each other a mutual benefit of some type.

Weapons: 2h axes, swords, and maces that can double as guitars. You can also equip standard versions of these weapons, they could just have animations that give them strings when you use your abilities.

Example of a Guitar Mace:



Armor: Mail, leather, or cloth

Available races: This could work with any race, as already demonstrated in Reforged:






We have a skeleton of a class right there.

Easy peasy.

Tanking seems most difficult to imagine, it'd have to be a dancer/dodger sort of thing i'd say, using magic to steel yourself as well. Seems unlikely though.

The ETC-based Bard is easily a tank, since it was a tanky character in HotS.

As to its flavor: Whispers are a prominent theme of the void already, definitely useable i'd say, banshee wails and of course the infamous insanely overpowered creature known as Murmur (HAIL!) all could serve as inspirations, though also more neutral stuff like inspiring songs, hymns, Bastion's bells (plz no), sirens and more.

That's too all over the place. A class' theme should be far more concise and should be personified in a heroic character. Again, this is why basing it on the ETC is the easiest/most sensible option. With the ETC we have the theme, we have the abilities, we have weapons, we have viability across multiple races and both factions, and we have a bard concept that actually works with Blizzard's style.

All the visuals I posted above come from Blizzard themselves. That should tell you something.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, they could make it a 3 tank spec class if they wanted to.

"If they wanted to"? Sure. But it doesn't fit the concept, just like a healer spec for the warrior class doesn't fit the concept.

Even without a tank spec, the bad class is versatile enough to be a three-spec class, or even a four-spec class: healer, spell DPS, melee DPS or healer, spell DPS, ranged DPS or healer, spell DPS, melee DPS and ranged DPS.

- - - Updated - - -

This is why its important to have a concept that has a hero character with unique abilities.

Wrong. We don't need "existing hero characters" or "existing unique abilities". We just need a concept for the class, and the setting the class is going to be in. And we already have both: the concept is the fantasy bard, and the setting is the Warcraft universe. Done.

We don't need ETC, or any existing bard character to create a valid, working class idea. In fact, restricting it to one specific character as its base needlessly restricts the concept, especially if the character itself is too narrow in concept.

[Teriz]

Wrong. We don't need "existing hero characters" or "existing unique abilities". We just need a concept for the class, and the setting the class is going to be in. And we already have both: the concept is the fantasy bard, and the setting is the Warcraft universe. Done.

You need a concept of the class that fits the game. Traditional style/DnD-style Bards don't do that. Yeah, you'll fine a few in taverns here and there, but you'll never find a hero character doing it beyond the ETC.

We don't need ETC, or any existing bard character to create a valid, working class idea. In fact, restricting it to one specific character as its base needlessly restricts the concept, especially if the character itself is too narrow in concept.

Yeah you do. If you don't, you end up with what happened to Amunransorthen's(sp?) Bard concept. Yeah it was excellently done, but many people didn't feel that it fit WoW.

[Ielenia]

You need a concept of the class that fits the game.

Which is where the setting comes in: to inform of the lore to help adapt the concept.

you'll never find a hero character doing it beyond the ETC.

We don't need a "hero", much less ETC. You even accidentally admitted to that when you claimed the evoker is based on Alexstrasza, who is not a hero.

Yeah you do.

No, we don't. Regardless of what you may think, Teriz, your opinion is not fact, nor are you the sole arbiter who decides what is valid for WoW or not.

[Teriz]

Which is where the setting comes in: to inform of the lore to help adapt the concept.

And what would be the setting? There's no major character to base this upon so where would you even pull this from?

We don't need a "hero", much less ETC. You even accidentally admitted to that when you claimed the evoker is based on Alexstrasza, who is not a hero.

LoL! How is the queen of WoW's dragons not a hero character? Her lore stretches all the way back to the first Warcraft game.

No, we don't. Regardless of what you may think, Teriz, your opinion is not fact, nor are you the sole arbiter who decides what is valid for WoW or not.

Again, the only reason you're making this argument is because you dislike the ETC's concept and there's no viable alternative hero to base the Bard concept on. It's cool to feel that way, I just wish you'd be honest about it.

[Triceron]

Okay, and if this is sharing the class with the ETC, what would the base abilities be? Again, a class needs to have abilities that all specs can use.

New core abilities.

You even acknowledged this with the Monk, posting 6 core abilities that aren't found on Chen. Abilities like Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm, Roll and Crackling Jade Lightning are new abilities not found anywhere. You can say they came from Chen's theme of Martial Arts, and I can draw the same parallel and say new core abilities would be created out of ETC's theme, ones that every spec can use equally.

And anything that is specific to Heavy Metal or Rock would be placed squarely in a spec, or in Talents. Just like all of Brewmaster's abilities are found in specs, not as core abilities. Drunken Haze, Breath of Fire, even Storm Earth and Fire are all found in Specs.

We already have this template in front of us, not quite sure why you think that basing a class on ETC means it would have all of ETC's abilities as core abilities.

It would simply have general abilities that work for all specs instead. Example:

Strum - Generator ability
Power Chord - Spender ability
Harmonize - Channeled healing ability
Mute - Silence ability

Then you can allocate ETC specific abilities into a Performance spec.

Face Melt
Power Slide
Guitar Solo
Stage Dive
Crowd Pleaser
Encore

And if you want a character that looks heavy metal, then you find the appropriate transmogs that would be available for that. I'd suggest a starting 'Heritage Armor' type of transmog set that players have the option of using, while all sets moving forward would be more traditional bard themed. And over time, they could add more Class quests/world exploration that unlock more Heavy Metal or other modern adapted outfits and instruments to cater to different niches, much like how Hunters customize their own pet options.

Yes, those themes are a Blingtron that does rap music, Draenei doing disco, DJ Milhouse Manastorm, a troll/gnome/elf/goblin boy band, and a Vulpera jazzman.

So?

Heroes of the Storm shares themes with Aliens, Robots, Angels and Demons, Cyborgs and all sorts of characters that have no place in Warcraft either. What does that matter? Just because we cite a source doesn't mean it has to take everything from it. It can take what is relevant to a new WoW class and ignore the extremes.

[Teriz]

So?

Heroes of the Storm shares themes with Aliens, Robots, Angels and Demons, Cyborgs and all sorts of characters that have no place in Warcraft either. What does that matter? Just because we cite a source doesn't mean it has to take everything from it. It can take what is relevant to a new WoW class and ignore the extremes.

They took everything from Alexstraza HotS in building the Evoker class. The difference being that they were able to fall back on WoW's expansive dragon lore and the other major draconic characters in the game to better flesh out the class. The Bard doesn't have that to fall back on and has far less to work with. Hence why relying on a single concept such as the ETC is more likely.

Just saying.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, if you look at the Hearthstone expansion, it’s also based on modern music like Hip Hop and Jazz. That works with the ETC theme. No one is prancing around in tights playing a lute or a harp.

There actually are harps lutes and other old instruments in the hearth stone expansion.

https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-...296-big-dreams
https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-...peaceful-piper
https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-...ber-tambourine
https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-...96-arrow-smith

[Triceron]

They took everything from Alexstraza HotS in building the Evoker class. The difference being that they were able to fall back on WoW's expansive dragon lore and the other major draconic characters in the game. The Bard doesn't have that to fall back on and has far less to work with. Hence why relying on a single concept is more likely.

Just saying.

Yeah but I never argued against taking abilities from any character. I've been clear to say they only comprise less than 20% of the class itself. In Alexstrazsa's case, it's less than 10% considering more than half of the Red's abilities are completely new and not taken directly from HOTS. Same can be said of any of Chromie's abilities from HOTS, the Evoker doesn't have any specific Sand-related attacks, rather it's part of the Healing spec.

And look at the Evoker's core/Class-wide abilities. Most of them are new, some of them merely inspired by Alexstrasza or Chromie, but not taking their abilities and themes 1:1 at all. Even abilities like Disintegrate comes from the D3 Wizard and Emerald Blossom is similar to Brightwing's abilities.



It's pretty clear to me that a Bard could have core abilities that works with both a Heavy Metal inspired Performance specialization, and traditional battle-musicians like Wardrummers or Harpists. Blizzard could even get creative and have specific abilities be tied to Instruments, similar to Guild Wars 2's weapon system.

What you're failing to acknowledge is that every expansion class we've gotten is 80% new. Even the incredibly niche concepts with little design space.

[Ielenia]

And what would be the setting? There's no major character to base this upon so where would you even pull this from?

Read the words, Teriz: I said setting, not characters. And I answered that question already here.

LoL! How is the queen of WoW's dragons not a hero character?

Because she's not a hero. She's just a queen. A queen is a VIP character, just like a hero is a VIP character, but that does not mean they're one and the same. Because an eagle and a hummingbird are both birds, but they're not the same.

Her lore stretches all the way back to the first Warcraft game.

"Hero" is not the one with the most lore. "Hero" is not the ruler of a group/nation.

Again, the only reason you're making this argument is because you dislike the ETC's concept and there's no viable alternative hero to base the Bard concept on. It's cool to feel that way, I just wish you'd be honest about it.

Dude, I have been saying this to you long before the bard concept became popular here in this forum. All the way back near the beginning of your "oMg TiNkErS aRe SuRe NeXt ClAsS, gUyS!!" days: your opinion is not fact, nor are you the sole arbiter who decides what is valid for WoW or not. You have a bad habit of positing your opinion as fact every time, and this time is no different. Also, you're one of the last people in this forum to talk about "being honest".

[SilverLion]

Bard is a physical ranged DPS in Final Fantasy XIV. It has support abilities but isn't framed as a support class. Just saying.

This is incorrect. It used to be. It was a support job effectively until Heavensward. So no, this isnt accurate. And yes, I played 1.0, beta and ARR. Bard was 100% a support first, dps job second. It was so bad in classic ARR it had to be turbo buffed during 2.2 and then it was mega op for the reason of the content duration.