Diablo 4 is bad.

[kenn9530]

You need to accept that me NOT LIKING SOMETHING makes it a downside, whether that is helping me or not.

I also don't like people paying for my drinks. That doesn't mean I don't think having more money is generally better than having less money, it just means I DON'T LIKE THIS KIND OF HELP.

You have zero control over my personal preferences, and it seems to be bugging you a lot that some people like things differently than you do. Which is weird AF.

It doesnt matter if you dont like something, that doesnt make it a downside to the game, you need to accept reality.

[Biomega]

It doesnt matter if you dont like something, that doesnt make it a downside to the game, you need to accept reality.

Which is why I didn't SAY "it's a downside". What I said was:

it's pretty much a strict negative to me

I never said, anywhere, that it was a downside in the abstract. I always clarified that it's a downside to me.

YOU need to accept the reality that all people don't like the same things the same way, and that me not liking something you do like isn't some kind of personal attack on your (apparently fragile) ego.

[Gaidax]

The whole open world BS I hear here is vastly overblown. People only congregate for very specific events like Kor, that level 35 mob and Ashava as far as beta went.

And quite frankly I'm glad for it, because it's just more meat shields for a boss to munch on. I do admit it can get annoying when there is a bunch of pepegas and clieless lowbies, but you can counteract it by simply inviting a few friends with a clue off your list. That's how I and buddies killed Ashava 6 times in 15 minutes window, we did not care that there was some useless meat around, we just blasted.

Rest of the zone you will maybe meet one other person here and there just to smack the 1 minute event and it's nothing so horrible.

Other than that - the instanced play like dungs is all the usual, instance is your unless you invite someone.

[kenn9530]

Which is why I didn't SAY "it's a downside". What I said was:

I never said, anywhere, that it was a downside in the abstract. I always clarified that it's a downside to me.

YOU need to accept the reality that all people don't like the same things the same way, and that me not liking something you do like isn't some kind of personal attack on your (apparently fragile) ego.

It still doesnt matter what your personal feelings are on the MMO part of the game, it doesnt have any downside only upsides, the simple reality is being part MMO it increases the games options far more than the previous titles, so you cant claim something as a downside just because you have bad taste, just suck it up and either play the game or dont, noone is going to care if you play it or not.

[KrayZ33]

It still doesnt matter what your personal feelings are on the MMO part of the game, it doesnt have any downside only upsides, the simple reality is being part MMO it increases the games options far more than the previous titles, so you cant claim something as a downside just because you have bad taste, just suck it up and either play the game or dont, noone is going to care if you play it or not.

Can you please stop your nonsense?
You don't make sense, no matter how much you think you do.
Every option has up and downsides, you need to accept reality.

I guess you just decided to ignore the bulk of my post which is post scriptum. not that I'm surprised, given your post history.

no D4 is NOT a better game. its a better looking game, maybe. but it is NOT a better game. I wasn't looking for PoE or any other modern online only arpgs that sprung up in the last 10 years. I was looking for continuation of 2 decades of diablo experience. even in Immortal I had more fun leveling than I did in D4 and THAT.. is saying something.

Is it? Not really.

I had a much better time leveling through 4 so far than 2 or 3 - it wasn't even close. Obviously it will depend on how the other acts of the story play out.
Both yours and Kenn's take are subjective. So is mine.
And I'm not saying that I liked it just because... I really had much more fun leveling than I did in the previous games. The "MMO-part" about this game however is not the reason.
Everything else was.
How it looks, how it felt, how the story is told, the amount of exploration is just right (not too much, not too linear), the leveling and unlocking of skills and their alternative, paths the amount of power you have while leveling etc.

[Biomega]

It still doesnt matter what your personal feelings are on the MMO part of the game, it doesnt have any downside only upsides

That's already a contradiction, because "upside" is purely defined by a value system that's subjective in SOME way since nothing in a video game has intrinsic value. We can all agree that objectively 2<3, but we CANNOT all agree that this means it's objectively better to have 2 rather than 3, because there is no intrinsic value here that says having more is BETTER; only that more is more.

You're presupposing your personal value proposition here, and failing to recognize that it's not the exact same as everybody else's.

you cant claim something as a downside just because you have bad taste, just suck it up and either play the game or dont, noone is going to care if you play it or not.

You seem to care A whole lot.

Again, though, since apparently you didn't quite catch it before (reading is tough, I know): I didn't say "it's a downside", I said "it's a downside TO ME". Those are not equivalent statements.

You're directly attacking my personal preference. Cool. I don't give a fuck. You have no influence on or control over my preferences. You can have different preferences, but you have no standing whatsoever to dispute my preferences. If I don't like something, no matter how that annoys you, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Tough shit, I know. Just a reality you have to accept, I suppose ;P

[Gaidax]

Is it? Not really.

I had a much better time leveling through 4 so far than 2 or 3 - it wasn't even close. Obviously it will depend on how the other acts of the story play out.
Both yours and Kenn's take are subjective. So is mine.
And I'm not saying that I liked it just because... I really had much more fun leveling than I did in the previous games. The "MMO-part" about this game however is not the reason.
Everything else was.
How it looks, how it felt, how the story is told, the amount of exploration is just right (not too much, not too linear), the leveling and unlocking of skills and their alternative, paths the amount of power you have while leveling etc.

I really love the open world giving it a sense of actual world, suddenly you see settlements, outposts, all the NPCs.

There was bits and bobs of that in previous titles, like Travincall (sorta), that outpost in Act 2 of D3 and Weestmarch (again sorta). But now you actually get to see actual friendly(ish) settlements and how they are in the world and it's real nice to get a feel of the world.

[kenn9530]

Can you please stop your nonsense?
You don't make sense, no matter how much you think you do.
Every option has up and downsides, you need to accept reality.

Its not nonsense just because you cant understand something, more options in a game are benefits to the game its just that simple.

- - - Updated - - -

That's already a contradiction, because "upside" is purely defined by a value system that's subjective in SOME way since nothing in a video game has intrinsic value. We can all agree that objectively 2<3, but we CANNOT all agree that this means it's objectively better to have 2 rather than 3, because there is no intrinsic value here that says having more is BETTER; only that more is more.

You're presupposing your personal value proposition here, and failing to recognize that it's not the exact same as everybody else's.


You seem to care A whole lot.

Again, though, since apparently you didn't quite catch it before (reading is tough, I know): I didn't say "it's a downside", I said "it's a downside TO ME". Those are not equivalent statements.

You're directly attacking my personal preference. Cool. I don't give a fuck. You have no influence on or control over my preferences. You can have different preferences, but you have no standing whatsoever to dispute my preferences. If I don't like something, no matter how that annoys you, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Tough shit, I know. Just a reality you have to accept, I suppose ;P

No you claimed its a downside to the game not just to your personal preferences, you are the contradiction here stating you want a challenge but leveling is not where you get that challenge so you need to get to endgame for that gameplay option, other players around make that process faster.

D4 being an MMO opens the game for more options, thats always superior than it being locked into more of a single player game which means most of the playerbase will not keep playing the game, because single player games are not played for a long time, but MMO games last a great deal longer. Weak insults dont help your weak argument.

[czarek]

I think it's safe to say there won't be a Diablo 5.

Whats your conclustion about that ? thats silly clickbait. There will be easly. They already made big cash and even tons are incomeing from battle pass and other added stuff. Yes boomers will cry about that but who cares if your product is sellin hot.

[KrayZ33]

Its not nonsense just because you cant understand something, more options in a game are benefits to the game its just that simple.

It is nonsense, you don't know what you are talking about, like always. So it's better for everyone invovled in this forum if you'd just shut up - but sadly, I can't force you.
I have you on ignore already, I went out of my way to click on your message and oh boy, it's not like I expected anything, but damn, you surely know how to disappoint.

[Biomega]

No you claimed its a downside to the game not just to your personal preferences

Where? I've always made it VERY clear that this is my own preference. I even quoted you the original statement, with "to me" in bold. Did you really not see that?

You've repeated this several times now, but just because you like to pretend the "to me" in my statement didn't exist, doesn't mean it wasn't there. Another reality-acceptance issue, I suppose? Or is it really just reading comprehension, I don't want to offend you if you just have dyslexia or something. I'm happy to keep explaining the same thing every time.

you are the contradiction here stating you want a challenge but leveling is not where you get that challenge

Says who? Do you know how and where I like my challenge? How?

You REALLY need to stop assuming that everyone shares your own value system. There are other people than you on this planet, you know.

D4 being an MMO opens the game for more options, thats always superior than it being locked into more of a single player game

No. More options is always more options, it doesn't mean it's always BETTER - that's a subjective value judgement. Again, the example I provided: we can agree that objectively 3 is more than 2, but we CANNOT agree that this means having 3 is automatically BETTER than having 2. Those are two different things.

And let's also be clear: things aren't as simple as "more options". You don't have the option to NOT meet other people. That option is being taken away from people, in return for other options - but there is nothing saying that this is an equivalent (or better) exchange. You just assume so.

Weak insults dont help your weak argument.

Perhaps because I'm not MAKING an argument (in my initial statement) - I'm stating a PREFERENCE. Those are not the same thing, you just keep trying to pretend they are - hence your thrice-repeated strawman that I'm somehow saying "it's a downside" (which would be an argument) when I've very clearly and repeatedly said "it's a downside TO ME" (which is a preference).

There is no arguing with a preference, precisely because it IS a preference. I don't use it to convince anyone. I'm just sharing it with people. It's how I feel; I don't expect other people to feel the same way, and I don't expect it to carry any weight beyond its value as information about my preference.

You can't dispute or defuse it any more than you could dispute someone saying "I like vanilla ice cream more than chocolate ice cream". No matter how much YOU like chocolate ice cream more.

[Jerot]

Your own personal challenge wont come until you are max level where you can actually make the game harder, so all the benfits of playing with others or having others nearby get you there faster, there are no downsides in the game being an MMO only upsides.

-Being unable to complete content because the randoms the game pairs you with don't do mechanics
-Missing out on kills/loot/exp because people are running around clearing the zone before you can
-Unable to play offline or in LAN with friends, gameplay affected by internet lag or outages
-Needlessly restricting loot acquisition to timers so they can force people to log in and do group content on a regular basis
-Cannot engage content on your own schedule, you must be up for when bosses/events pop. Harder for people still in school or working.
-FOMO daily/weekly grind mechanics that are inherent with MMOs to keep people logging in so the game doesn't feel dead
-Constantly having people pop in with ridiculous names that decimate everything around hurts the atmosphere the game is going for and breaks immersion.

Being an MMO can be a plus for some people, but for many of us it's a huge turn-off.

Can we also address how needlessly restrictive it is to lock harder difficulties behind reaching max level? Virtually every other game in the genre offers harder modes for more experienced players looking for a challenge, or through game systems allow players to engage with higher level content than recommended and/or grind above the level of content to dynamically control their level of difficulty outside of a difficulty setting.

It is a better game than all previous diablo games thats a simple fact, the leveling is good in D4 better than just grinding in D3 and better than the previous games, leveling is just so you can see the story of the game until you get to endgame, its no different from any other ARPG.

Something made for entertainment purposes being better or worse is entirely subjective, I have more fun in the first act of D3 than I do in D4. Because personally I cannot stand the way they handle NPC dialogue as mini-cutscenes that lock your character down, and I find the style of the early quests tedious. So many things are done 'for flavor' like having to pick up a list off a table 10ft from an NPC, or walking 30ft to talk to another NPC to continue a quest, or waiting for them to reach some arbitrary marker before the next part triggers. Not to mention emoting as a quest. I don't find any of this engaging at all, and not all of it is skippable.

I also value the importance of passive decision making and gearing in early levels, and D4 is extremely basic. Maybe a blue in D3 only gives me 15% attack speed, but at least it's not 5 dex giving me 0.2% critical strike chance in D4. Outside of +skills items, basically everything is decided for you with the little green numbers, no need to think about it.

Maybe you enjoy a game where you completely turn off your brain and make numbers go up, and that's fine. But if you want to say its objectively better, provide some examples of things that have actually been added or improved in D4 that D3/D2R/D2 didn't have or do better? My experience with the beta was extremely similar to Diablo Immortal, only with updated graphics and the (Temporary?) removal of the cash store.

[Ophenia]

Gameplay - you use 2-3 offensive abilities of some sort and the rest is utility, mobility and defensives as you see fit. Mostly this is ranged play, although melee is possible with few spells to support it, if you so desire. Class feels very fast due to excellent AoE clears combined with good 'ol Teleport ability. Despite perception of fragile mage - it's actually surprisingly tanky (again level 25) - you can't restore HP from abilities outside potions or legendaries, but it spams barriers (HP shield practically) passively and actively like no tomorrow and has some complete immunity cooldowns too.

Regarding the HP, I played around a bit with the fire barrier instead of the frost one a bit (especially when I got the leg that make you go through enemies while it's active), and it's a good way to heal from time to time, especially if you get lucky with the passive that resets your defensive cooldowns on damage taken.

But overall the healing was rarely a problem thanks to the pots stack that's regularly replenished by drops. I only had "pots problems" when Butcher showed and there was no enemy nearby. And it was with the basic pots, seeing how much it can be improved should help immensely

[Biomega]

Can we also address how needlessly restrictive it is to lock harder difficulties behind reaching max level?

Honestly, this kind of pisses me off - I expected there to be additional difficulty beyond the Beta world tiers, but you're right: those seem to be for higher level only. Having the option to have some nice, difficult leveling is something I thought would be trivially easy to do by simply enabling the other world tiers earlier; but apparently that's not going to happen. It's not, like, a deal breaker, but it does seem to me like something they could have done fairly easily and simply chose not to. It's a bit harsh and reductive, but it does seem that lately Blizzard has had a bit of an "anti-fun" stance in their design across many games. No one is asking for a completely separate world tier just for leveling, but simply extending the higher ones to lower levels shouldn't have been that hard, should it? It's all just number scaling, isn't it? Even D3 at least allows you to go up to T6 before max level, and that's almost completely unfeasible unless you're a decked-out alt or have a -req weapon.

[Witchblade77]

Can you please stop your nonsense?
You don't make sense, no matter how much you think you do.
Every option has up and downsides, you need to accept reality.



Is it? Not really.

I had a much better time leveling through 4 so far than 2 or 3 - it wasn't even close. Obviously it will depend on how the other acts of the story play out.
Both yours and Kenn's take are subjective. So is mine.
And I'm not saying that I liked it just because... I really had much more fun leveling than I did in the previous games. The "MMO-part" about this game however is not the reason.
Everything else was.
How it looks, how it felt, how the story is told, the amount of exploration is just right (not too much, not too linear), the leveling and unlocking of skills and their alternative, paths the amount of power you have while leveling etc.

one of my big problems was all the padding in between the good bits. so. much. pointless. distances.... it felt like playing the most recent Assasin's creed games, TBH. are there fun bits and story telling etc? yes, sure and some things are improved. and yet... the padding.. so much padding and stretching out of everything. my god.... I do think at least part of it is alleviated by having a mount, but I also really REALLY don't like it when developers think that offering a solution to a problem that didn't need to be there in a first place is good design. (same goes for scaling of strongholds and world bosses to groups)

but to each their own. I will freely admit I haven't played D3 at launch. I only got around to playing it after reaper of souls was released, so I got a vastly improved version off the bat. which is why I'm not dismissing D4's potential either, but rather planning on waiting to see what/if improvements will be made down the line.

in its current state? I found prior games to be much more fun and NOT having to share the world with other people unless I chose to was at least part of it.

[Strawberry]

Set your expectations right. This is World of Diablo that will receive the same treatment as WoW because of inclusion of world bosses and more focus on PvP.
It's not a bad game, we only saw a small part of it with increased legendary drops. I loved it and disagree that Blizzard is too afraid to experiment. They went MMO lol. Basically reworked the game.

[KrayZ33]

one of my big problems was all the padding in between the good bits. so. much. pointless. distances.... it felt like playing the most recent Assasin's creed games, TBH. are there fun bits and story telling etc? yes, sure and some things are improved. and yet... the padding.. so much padding and stretching out of everything. my god.... I do think at least part of it is alleviated by having a mount, but I also really REALLY don't like it when developers think that offering a solution to a problem that didn't need to be there in a first place is good design. (same goes for scaling of strongholds and world bosses to groups)

but to each their own. I will freely admit I haven't played D3 at launch. I only got around to playing it after reaper of souls was released, so I got a vastly improved version off the bat. which is why I'm not dismissing D4's potential either, but rather planning on waiting to see what/if improvements will be made down the line.

in its current state? I found prior games to be much more fun and NOT having to share the world with other people unless I chose to was at least part of it.

Hmm.. I don't think the distances are that outrageous even on foot. With a mount they are basically non-existent, the little we get to use it between waypoints is probably going to feel rather "stylish".
I dislike the MMO stuff as well, it's - after all - the reason why your character gets moved around by invisible loading-walls and stuff like that. Absolutely horrible and immersion breaking, especially since NPCs pop up left and right because of it. I blame consoles for some stuff like that as well because that certainly doesn't just come from it being an MMO.

I don't mind seeing other players, that is rare anyway outside of towns. In fact I rarely saw anyone after leaving a town.
There was like on average a guy joining you during events, but that's the "right amount" of players imho that it still doesn't feel like a generic MMO.

[Thes]

It just doesn't feel fun to build a character, either with gear OR with skills. And that's a massive red flag, all klaxons blaring. I never once looked at stuff going "man I can't wait to try all these things" - instead it was "okay so this is the obvious A build, this is the obvious B build..." with choices relegated to irrelevant things like do I take Teleport or not or whatever. Shallow as a puddle and inspiring as a wet stain. Yeah most people don't want PoE, no one is asking for the spreadsheetpocalypse to happen - but come on, not THIS. Not "do I take +3% periodic damage?" kind of bullshit. Isn't that exactly what killed the original WoW talent trees? Bland and boring must-spend stuff like 5/5 into +1% crit and whatnot that just didn't make you feel like you had agency OR were particularly fun. Why are we suddenly back to that now, 20 years later? Fuck, even D3's skill runes were better than most mods on skills in D4, and those largely got reduced to "what element am I playing".

It's a bit weird that they already have the solution (Dragonflight talents) but instead go with this :|

[BrokenRavens]

I specifically mentioned that cities are different.

And I am saying they are both over crowded. I had an inn room that I was apparently sharing with five or six people at the same time.

And I had an overland where I was seeing another player at least once a minute. Sometimes it was just impossible to shake off other players.

The reports that when playing solo you hardly encounter other people are highly exaggerated. You see other people constantly. Yeah, I don’t have to group with them, but the traditional Diablo experience is not there.

Yeah dungeons are just solo, but that is not where we are a lot of the time.

Maybe after the game has been out for awhile and the population thins out, maybe then. But that demo was a real eye opener at how crowded the spaces were.

[Gaidax]

Regarding the HP, I played around a bit with the fire barrier instead of the frost one a bit (especially when I got the leg that make you go through enemies while it's active), and it's a good way to heal from time to time, especially if you get lucky with the passive that resets your defensive cooldowns on damage taken.

But overall the healing was rarely a problem thanks to the pots stack that's regularly replenished by drops. I only had "pots problems" when Butcher showed and there was no enemy nearby. And it was with the basic pots, seeing how much it can be improved should help immensely

Well, nothing was problem as Sorc in beta, really

I do wonder how it will go actual endgame, when basic crap will be swinging you for half your max HP.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a bit weird that they already have the solution (Dragonflight talents) but instead go with this :|

I would not take the quote you quoted seriously.

I think it's a take of a person who did not really think it through beyond a passing glance. Already at 25 there were numerous builds for Sorc alone, and that's with limited talent points and very limited list of gear.

The "obvious" builds are always "obvious" - does not make them best. "Oh I have fire passives in talent tree, guess it means I have to play fire skills only" - a notion we dispelled like day 2 of preorder beta.


Some builds we could not even try really even, because legendaries for them drop at higher level and we simply did not have the points. Like "unlimited powwwaaaaa" self-sustained chain lightning/conjuration. That is going to blast + Palpatine vibes.