1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its not debatable at all, an ARPG is not about moving across the screen and watching mobs blow up in seconds.

    Also practically noone plays these games for the story, most ppl dont care about WoWs story they play it for gameplay, story doesnt matter in games because the story is not what keeps you playing. So it doesnt matter if a story is good or bad, all that matters is gameplay.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its just simple reality that MMO games are better than single player games, MMOs get played for years, while single player games get mostly forgotten.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its fairly slow and the aoe effects are fairly small, your not spamming teleport and one shotting everything every other second, you gather some mobs up pop a few skills and then blow them up, and scaling difficulty later on will mean mobs dont just get destroyed instantly.

    You wont know how classes really play until max level and you have access to all the legendery buffs so you can actually make builds.
    MMOs get played for years because unlike single player games their content is constantly updated, not because they are MMO. If Elden Ring would get all the updates WoW gets, it would be played for years just as.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Another "gem" brought to you by the fucking idiots running Blizzard these days. Mob scaling in WoW was one of the worst decisions they ever made. Mob scaling in Diablo 4 is equally bad and equally stupid. These games are all about gaining power, and for some reason they thought mob scaling was a good feature to add.

    I don't care for "it's open world" as a reason. Make an adventure mode then. But if I'm going through the campaign, it's nonsensical for the mobs I'm butchering at level 1 to take as long to kill at level 50.

    Honestly, there's big problems all around. Feels like they made this game with no solid direction and didn't innovate anywhere. The character creation, for instance, was more in-depth in Diablo Immortal. Embarrassing. How can DI do anything better than D4? How can they allow that to happen?
    It's not a "Blizzard" thing...
    It's a modern gaming thing. Almost all games have level scaling because they managed to sell it over a decade ago as "freedom of choice and play as you want" when in reality it was about having to bother less with balancing and provide a proper progression through the world they created.
    Earliest memory I can think of is Oblivion...

    I wish all games stopped the lvl scaling.
    If they want end-game to be relevant in all places, which is a good idea, add something so that can be done. Like a higher difficulty at max lvl that scales everything, boom. Done.

    Now you can have a proper immersive world with good sense of progression and still have the world relevant at end-game.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2023-03-30 at 07:55 AM.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    you think you know what its going to be. you dont actually know.
    They're not going to pull out some amazing new systems for launch that weren't tested in the end game beta. If you believe that it's top tier copium.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's not a "Blizzard" thing...

    I think they mean that Blizzard has done it before with WoW etc, that Blizzard has a track record with dynamic scaling and all.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's not a "Blizzard" thing...
    It's a modern gaming thing. Almost all games have level scaling because they managed to sell it over a decade ago as "freedom of choice and play as you want" when in reality it was about having to bother less with balancing and provide a proper progression through the world they created.
    But it IS freedom of choice. Because the alternative is "we decide where to go at what level, and you can't go any other route". If you want a nonlinear pathing through level progression, then scaling is pretty much the only way to go. Otherwise you'd have a lvl10 character in a lvl40 zone or whatever. Or a lvl40 character in a lvl10 zone, which is also a pretty feelsbad situation.

    I think not feeling as powerful when you level up is preferable to being forced to do A1-5 (or whatever equivalent) in precisely that order every single time on every character.

    Now, that doesn't mean D4's scaling is perfect of course. They could fiddle with the numbers and make it feel better, for sure. But the principle of level scaling content is sound IMO.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    They're not going to pull out some amazing new systems for launch that weren't tested in the end game beta. If you believe that it's top tier copium.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I think they mean that Blizzard has done it before with WoW etc, that Blizzard has a track record with dynamic scaling and all.

    As they clearly said in the rest of the post about it not being a "Blizzard Thing", Dynamic level scaling is a problem plaguing modern gaming as a whole.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But it IS freedom of choice. Because the alternative is "we decide where to go at what level, and you can't go any other route". If you want a nonlinear pathing through level progression, then scaling is pretty much the only way to go. Otherwise you'd have a lvl10 character in a lvl40 zone or whatever. Or a lvl40 character in a lvl10 zone, which is also a pretty feelsbad situation.

    I think not feeling as powerful when you level up is preferable to being forced to do A1-5 (or whatever equivalent) in precisely that order every single time on every character.

    Now, that doesn't mean D4's scaling is perfect of course. They could fiddle with the numbers and make it feel better, for sure. But the principle of level scaling content is sound IMO.
    Yeah, I never argued it wasn't freedom of choice... just that it isn't the "main" reason why game studios does it, I think. It's what they sold to players though...

    I just think it's a negative because the world immersion and experience suffer in the hands of "freedom of choice" in this case. Freedom of choice isn't automatically better either.
    Facing some lvl 1 wolf or spider hatchling which is equally powerful as a pit lord is stupid as hell.
    The scaling makes it so I never feel i traverse into a hostile territory even if I go from a forest to literally the depths of hell, it's equally dangerous. I miss the days where it felt like you actually progressed through a living world.

    You might not care about this, and that's fine. I think this ruins the worlds that has been created. I can't think of one game that has given me an enhanced experience with lvl scaling...

    Granted D4 actually have minimum lvl for areas so they can't go below that, which is a step in the right direction. But mobs lvling up with me while i'm in the same area is a straight net negative for my experience. There's no point in lvling up if everything else also lvl up.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2023-03-30 at 08:34 AM.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  7. #427
    Maybe unpopular opinion but I actually really liked the beta despite playing the worst class of the beta (Druid). I found the style vert gritty and the gameplay reminded me a lot more of D2 than D3.
    I also really like the shift to a slower gameplay instead of the giga zoomer mode gameplay of D3 which was like: "Dash dash teleport fast!! Dont forget to spam that dash boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy" with everything blowing up in your wake.

    The only disappointing thing to me was the little customization over skills with only 2 variants per skill and the fact that our gear gives us access to so many skills but we can only use 6 at a time.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But it IS freedom of choice. Because the alternative is "we decide where to go at what level, and you can't go any other route". If you want a nonlinear pathing through level progression, then scaling is pretty much the only way to go. Otherwise you'd have a lvl10 character in a lvl40 zone or whatever. Or a lvl40 character in a lvl10 zone, which is also a pretty feelsbad situation.

    I think not feeling as powerful when you level up is preferable to being forced to do A1-5 (or whatever equivalent) in precisely that order every single time on every character.

    Now, that doesn't mean D4's scaling is perfect of course. They could fiddle with the numbers and make it feel better, for sure. But the principle of level scaling content is sound IMO.
    This is a valid argument ONLY if there is no other choice than A1-5 as you put it. But there are other choices. For example my half asleep brain can think of maybe once you unlock Adventure mode or whatever then whichever Act you pick to start out in will scale accordingly. For instance if you pick A5 then a little number can appear next to it and for that particular playthrough all mobs in that Act would be level 1-20 or whatever. Then the second Act you pick could adjust the same 20-40,40-60,60-80, etc. Then if you want even MORE freedom you could have a path reset button.

    BUT. I think this is all pretty irrelevant to argue over in the first place as everyone pretty much rushes to max level anyhow in Diablo games specifically and once you get there and get some gear that whole argument of "it shouldn't take as long to kill a mob at level 50 as it does at level 1" which the OP of the initial comment made, because once you ARE geared up those level 50 mobs will drop MUCH faster than they did at level 1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    MMOs get played for years because unlike single player games their content is constantly updated, not because they are MMO. If Elden Ring would get all the updates WoW gets, it would be played for years just as.
    That's because many MMO's have either a subscription or a microtransaction payment system in place to keep money flowing into the game which in turn funds those updates in the first place. So if Elden Ring had a sub for instance then it would get updates just like WoW. Otherwise people wouldn't pay the sub.

  9. #429
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    20,783
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Facing some lvl 1 wolf or spider hatchling which is equally powerful as a pit lord is stupid as hell.
    'hol up, bruh.

    Now you're just being dishonest, and you know it - level is not everything, within same level there is a VAST gulf of power gap between said wolf/spiderling and pit lord or anything that level.

    It's also a take that overall is weird AF, given ARPGs ALWAYS send waves of random shit at you as their modus operandi. Yes those basic skellies and zombies waves mixed in with elites or some tougher mobs - they are all same level, but the stat block of said zombie is MUCH lower than of said elite or even normal "lieutenant" mob of that level.

    That's why in beta (or heck any Diablo game or otherwise ARPG) you often face 20-30 zombies, but like 2-3 big treebois, wraiths or beefier demons. They are all same level - but your average fucking wolf is still not in the league of even a woad.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    That's not how it works... Did you play Diablo 4?
    You do not detach the effect and add it to yourself. You can move it from one item to another

    Diablo 3 you could have a legendary on every slot, and then a max power legendary armor, jewelry, and weapon. However they only gave you the effect.

    In Diablo 4 you can extract legendary powers from an item you like the power of, say a low level or horribly rolled legendary, and put it onto a rare item with good rolls to make it a legendary


    Again they are nothing alike. Diablo 3 let you apply these powers to your charecter as you said. Diablo 4 does not, instead it lets you make your own legendaries using powers you acquire.
    this 100%, people who don't realize how this opens up alot of customization very different from D3 are probably not ARPG material and their opinion shouldn't matter, they are a vocal minority afterall

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    'hol up, bruh.

    Now you're just being dishonest, and you know it - level is not everything, within same level there is a VAST gulf of power gap between said wolf/spiderling and pit lord or anything that level.

    It's also a take that overall is weird AF, given ARPGs ALWAYS send waves of random shit at you as their modus operandi. Yes those basic skellies and zombies waves mixed in with elites or some tougher mobs - they are all same level, but the stat block of said zombie is MUCH lower than of said elite or even normal "lieutenant" mob of that level.

    That's why in beta (or heck any Diablo game or otherwise ARPG) you often face 20-30 zombies, but like 2-3 big treebois, wraiths or beefier demons. They are all same level - but your average fucking wolf is still not in the league of even a woad.
    Don't agree it's dishonest when that's actually true with lvl scaling. The reason I used pit lords is because at some lvl, can't remember which, you do face pit lords in dungeons in the beta and they went down as quick as a random wolf or skeleton I faced when low lvl.

    It's relative. Of course different mobs have inherently different stats allocated to them. As you mention tree bois are tougher and has more hp and maybe hit harder, but are also slower and lower in numbers. Relatively they have the same power as just any other mob. If the mob is weaker you send out more of them, if it's tougher, you send out less. if 10 zombies are as strong as 1 tree boi, that's the ratio you use and the relative power is the same.

    Bringing in lieutenants or special packs is also adding more stats to those mobs. But a special packs of hatchlings will absolutely be stronger than a "normal" tree boi.

    And to clarify I'm simply talking about world building, immersion and progression, which I thought was clear. Not max lvl or end-game. At that point I don't mind anything being thrown at me, but the progression up to there should still makes sense in a pure immersive and world building sense.
    It's a reason why games often starts you with small spiders and wolf and minor demons and later on you face big demon enemies.
    Most games does this, 95%+ of the games does this. Because we still understand you don't start with a pit lord in the starting area, you start with a small creature and build it up.... But then lvl scaling came and reduced that impact of this world building. Players and designers a like understand why games are set up like this, but now we have lvl scaling which sort of undoes this process.

    And to clarify further. I'm not against using previous fodder creatures in later areas as well. In fact I do like it when games use a scarcely used enemy in a low zone which was the "big baddie" in that place and then use them as fodder in 4-5 areas later in higher lvls. It shows how far you've come progression wise and actually makes you feel as if you become stronger as the game should make you feel.
    D2 reused enemies in later difficulties as well, but just a simple name change and color shift is enough to make the world "make sense". You don't face Fallens anymore, you face carvers etc etc. Which shows this a new type even though it's the same with new numbers.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2023-03-30 at 09:15 AM.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    No, its not. I know many players who playing Diablo for fun, clearing the game 2-3 times and are done with it. not everyone wants to grind the game hundreds of hours every season.
    yes that's fine but obviously the game should cater for the grinders.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    This is a valid argument ONLY if there is no other choice than A1-5 as you put it. But there are other choices. For example my half asleep brain can think of maybe once you unlock Adventure mode or whatever then whichever Act you pick to start out in will scale accordingly. For instance if you pick A5 then a little number can appear next to it and for that particular playthrough all mobs in that Act would be level 1-20 or whatever. Then the second Act you pick could adjust the same 20-40,40-60,60-80, etc. Then if you want even MORE freedom you could have a path reset button.
    Which doesn't solve the problem, it just diversifies the restrictions. Now you're forced to level through an Act up to whatever the cap is - you can't be under (or the next Act might be too hard) and you can't be over (or the next Act might be too easy) and you also can't change your mind in the middle of things. And you still have a routing problem because how do you choose what monsters in the Act are what level? You'd have to have one fixed route, no sidequests in other areas, and so on. And all that to have a VASTLY more complicated system, with picking routes, resetting routes, and whatnot. That sounds terrible to me, ngl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    BUT. I think this is all pretty irrelevant to argue over in the first place as everyone pretty much rushes to max level anyhow in Diablo games
    That's not true. Doubly so for a more casual game like D4. There's tons of people who take their time during levelup. Check YT, there's plenty of very extensive documentation of people's journeys. Do those players just not matter? And what's worse: the real hardcore people who just rush to endgame, THEY are the ones who don't care. They may grumble a bit at the scaling, but by and large they don't give a shit, because as you say, the leveling process to them is pretty much irrelevant anyway - and they're used to doing whatever they have to in the first place.

    This is a molehill->mountain problem IMO. Sure it has its quirks and annoyances and they should tweak shit a bit especially with respect to class balance, but by and large, this just isn't a huge problem for the game AT ALL. There's probably twelve dozen other issues that are more important to more people.

  14. #434
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    20,783
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's relative. Of course different mobs have inherently different stats allocated to them. As you mention tree bois are tougher and has more hp and maybe hit harder, but are also slower and lower in numbers. Relatively they have the same power as just any other mob.
    Bruh, don't even try to argue with me a that a swarm of volves/spiderlings/zombies is anywhere near close same difficulty as a singular bigger enemy.

    Those silly swarms go poof in flames from a single simple AoE spell, it's a fodder and it's not even a Diablo 4 thing. Their only factor is that they may body block your bigger spell on a way to its intended target or alternatively body block you from running away from that big bois ground smash or some such.

    That's all.

    Power level they are not even on the radar, despite being same level.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Yeah let's think, are D2 and D3, D4?
    I don't know is it? We don't know the endgame.

  16. #436

  17. #437
    On the matter of linearity, I am not a closed beta tester but it is clear that the story will NOT require you to go to zones on a specific order by the fact that we can choose to go to any zone after Fractured Peaks; at the very least you get quests for both Scosglen and Dry Steppes.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    This is a valid argument ONLY if there is no other choice than A1-5 as you put it. But there are other choices. For example my half asleep brain can think of maybe once you unlock Adventure mode or whatever then whichever Act you pick to start out in will scale accordingly. For instance if you pick A5 then a little number can appear next to it and for that particular playthrough all mobs in that Act would be level 1-20 or whatever. Then the second Act you pick could adjust the same 20-40,40-60,60-80, etc. Then if you want even MORE freedom you could have a path reset button.

    BUT. I think this is all pretty irrelevant to argue over in the first place as everyone pretty much rushes to max level anyhow in Diablo games specifically and once you get there and get some gear that whole argument of "it shouldn't take as long to kill a mob at level 50 as it does at level 1" which the OP of the initial comment made, because once you ARE geared up those level 50 mobs will drop MUCH faster than they did at level 1.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's because many MMO's have either a subscription or a microtransaction payment system in place to keep money flowing into the game which in turn funds those updates in the first place. So if Elden Ring had a sub for instance then it would get updates just like WoW. Otherwise people wouldn't pay the sub.
    This is a valid point but it’s not my point. My point is that a game is played for a lot of time if it has a long term decent support.

    This is usually the case for MMO and not usually the case for single player games, but this is a (obvious) dev choice, people play more games that have long time support, being them MMO or not is not THAT important imho.

    The added value here is the long time support, not the MMO nature of the game.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    That's not how it works... Did you play Diablo 4?
    You do not detach the effect and add it to yourself. You can move it from one item to another

    Diablo 3 you could have a legendary on every slot, and then a max power legendary armor, jewelry, and weapon. However they only gave you the effect.

    In Diablo 4 you can extract legendary powers from an item you like the power of, say a low level or horribly rolled legendary, and put it onto a rare item with good rolls to make it a legendary


    Again they are nothing alike. Diablo 3 let you apply these powers to your charecter as you said. Diablo 4 does not, instead it lets you make your own legendaries using powers you acquire.
    In D3, I extract legendary power and then attach it to me.
    In D4 I extract legendary power and then attach it to a new item that I then attach to me.

    Wow! you are right, they are wildly different! *eye roll*.

    To my eye is just a natural progression of the same concept. At its core its just a mechanism that lets me keep a legendary effect even when the item it came with it no longer relevant to me. Thats it.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    Like I mentioned in my post, Endgame has been tested already and leaked. We know what it's going to be. It's not some mysterious part of the game that nobody knows anything about.

    It's interesting though that you ignored that part and resorted to toxicity anyway.
    "Toxicity" Being how you feel about anyone when they disagree with you.

    And you're STILL talking about "endgame leaked from beta anyway" when that was --- Beta. Unfinished. MANY builds ago.

    but "ToXiC" LOL

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    A lot of issues are with the core gameplay loop, and that was clearly shown in the beta.
    Druid and Barb are behind in survivability and/or damage when compared to sorcerer (god tier, even without legendaries) necro (basically immortal) and rogue (fast as fuck boi), and it's a large gap.
    Seasons will feel like shit for anyone who wants to play them outright as leveling and general gameplay is slow for the first couple legs, especially with bosses that penalize melee characters with extremely hard hits or running/kiting the player and keeping out of range.
    The fact that you need specific legendaries just to make the characters viable lends itself to the poor construction of the characters themselves.
    Like, just upping an item to "increase damage of this useless ability by 5000%, therefore making it mandatory" is kinda... I dunno... gross.

    The skill tree is boring; you can see the whole thing, and each point you put into a skill was to "increase the intensity", but in practical use, going from 1/5 to 2/5 increased overall damage by like 2%. Wow.
    The skills themselves and having this tree that prevents you from using builds is also an inhibiting factor, especially when you want to experiment.
    The modifiers behind skills like "this adds 3% crit" is also flat and boring; at least change the way the skill works/looks/something to give it more life.

    The travel in the open world, with all the running through empty areas since they purposefully keep mob density down because they want a more tactical approach to combat, which at the end of the day just make it feel more empty and less of an actual threat.
    then there's dungeons, where there's several corridors and, if you take the wrong one and miss another, you miss a required item and have to backtrack, so Blizz's response is "we don't want you without enemies, so we can have them refresh", which is basically saying "I just wasted your time with this poorly designed objective, so now I will waste more of your time by making you fight even more things, thus delaying you from finishing the dungeon".

    These are core to the philosophies of the game and were clearly on display.
    I'm not saying that the game will be utter shit, but there will be things that are annoying about it and probably won't be addressed in any meaningful way.
    I am a Friends and Family closed alpha and closed beta, and closed endgame beta tester.

    Your entire argument is based off of what you saw being the end-all, be-all and it's absolutely not the case.

    You're forgetting about the paragon trees, legendary and rare paragon nodes, legendary and rare Glyphs, and the massive amount of uniques and legendary essence effects you didn't have access to in the open beta.

    If I will agree with anything you said, it's that I want more skills available. I wanted Grizzly for the Druid, but here are are. But there are two planned expansions, so they have to leave SOMEthing to put in them, I guess.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenRavens View Post
    That’s me! That describes me. Although more like 5-6 times.

    I tried the endgame “grind” once. Could not last a day.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Are you saying you tried this out in D4? Because it’s interesting you imply the endgame grind will be enjoyable, even though most of us here don’t know the basic things about it yet.

    I could only play the first part and level to 25. I can only comment on that.
    As I said earlier, I am an FFA tester and closed beta tester, closed endgame tester, and open beta tester.

    The ENTIRE campaign and a big chunk of the paragon trees and endgame situation was available in the Alpha, though of course there were quite a few placeholders and several skills weren't implemented or functioning properly.

    However, NDA is still in effect until release, so I can't show pics. and won't. Guess you'll just have to accuse me of lying.
    If we could all sit and talk without demonizing one another and attempt to understand the opposite point of view, the collective world would be a better place. Mental bigotry is the worst of all.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •