The third Evoker spec should be a ranged tank.

[Ielenia]

Yes. Completely. It's entirely thematic. Just as being melee is entirely "moot and pointless and meaningless." The range of your abilities is entirely disconnected from the role.

Then design the spec as melee. If 'being ranged' has no point whatsoever, just make it melee. It's a waste of a concept when those ranged abilities could be given to an actual ranged spec.

[Berkilak]

Then design the spec as melee. If 'being ranged' has no point whatsoever, just make it melee. It's a waste of a concept when those ranged abilities could be given to an actual ranged spec.

That's a bit of a non sequitur. An Earth-based tank has been something people have been after for years, dragon-class or not. And thematically, it makes just as much sense for ranged as it does for melee, if not more. You can play the spec regardless of its role, so it cannot be "wasted," no more than Bear form or Brewmaster or Blood or sword and shield is "wasted" on tanks.

[Ielenia]

The problem is that 90% of all mobs and pretty much every boss melee's, so it will always walk towards the evoker. Does this mean it is impossible? No. Maintaining some sort of root to prevent mobs/bosses from moving could be part of the kit, but I think that would be really annoying.
I think ranged tanking (without pet) can sometimes work on some bosses (we had one in BFA), but for most content it just isnt feasable. I think the closest we can get is stuff like prot pala, where most attacks are ranged, but you still have to be in melee.

Not just "annoying", but OP as hell. Because if the tank can keep the bosses from hitting them, then that means they're taking no damage and avoiding tank buster mechanics. After all, those bosses need to hit you with melee strikes to apply those debuffs/dots that normally force a tank swap. However, 90+% of dungeon bosses and 100% of raid bosses are immune to roots/slow, so the 'ranged' aspect of 'ranged tanking' becomes moot.

On top of that, stationary bosses (such as Kologarn in Ulduar and Krosus in Nighthold) start pummeling melee DPS when the tank moves out of range. And a ranged tank would be always out of range, unless they move back in melee... which negates the 'ranged' aspect of 'ranged tanking'.

[Zodiark]

At best, an Evoker tank would either be like the Dark Apotheosis Warlock from MoP/WoD or an Enhancement Shaman. The DA Warlock is the closest you're going to get to a ranged caster-tank, but even that is a faux-range, because it would still be fighting in melee range.

The most likely option IMO is an Enhancement Shaman style tank that can reduce the cast/charge time of their abilities via melee attacks. I say this is the most likely due to this being the missing Weryn of the Evoker class;

I really do miss the DA Warlock design. It was a fun fantasy. To me it was almost like how the survival spec for Hunters makes the class feel different from the other specs. Almost like an entirely different class.

[Jujudrood]

There's really two thoughts here that seem at odds with each other.

Option 1 is you want a "true ranged tank" who can perform all rotational abilities at range and maintain full threat, which begs the question "but what about, you know, actual tanking then?" because you are now out of melee range, thus the boss can't hit you (or worse, they hit other folk).
This means recoding every encounter ever and changing the fundamentals of what "melee" and "ranged" means so the boss can, in fact, still target you will things while you are far away, which just makes you a tank, but over there instead of over here.

Option 2 is you just want a tank who has ranged abilities but otherwise the boss runs up and punches them in the face, which means they are like every other tank, all of which can perform some level of ranged attacks to generate threat until they reach melee range and start getting punched.
In this world, you are just a tank and you get punched like other tanks, it's just that your abilities can also work in melee or ranged.

There's a third idea, a "kiting tank", but that's absolute dogshit guys, and I expect better from you.
Imagine on a boss like Raz, where one tank is standing where they should, taking the attacks, doing the tanky stuffs, then the ranged tank taunts bc it's their turn and they just start fucking running circles around the platform.
I bet that would work well for all the rogues and warriors and DKs out there, right?
Do you suppose while the ranged tank is active, Blizz can inject the Benny Hill music into the game too?
You know, for the setting and whatnot.

[Ielenia]

That's a bit of a non sequitur. An Earth-based tank has been something people have been after for years, dragon-class or not. And thematically, it makes just as much sense for ranged as it does for melee, if not more. You can play the spec regardless of its role, so it cannot be "wasted," no more than Bear form or Brewmaster or Blood or sword and shield is "wasted" on tanks.

No. No, it doesn't. Because, again, a "ranged tank" in a game like WoW is something that just doesn't work mechanically, and, in concept, it also doesn't work for concept: why would the boss waste time having to walk up to the "ranged tank" when they have a plethora of targets right within arm's reach?

[Berkilak]

No. No, it doesn't. Because, again, a "ranged tank" in a game like WoW is something that just doesn't work mechanically, and, in concept, it also doesn't work for concept: why would the boss waste time having to walk up to the "ranged tank" when they have a plethora of targets right within arm's reach?

You're conflating me with someone else. Argue with them, not me.

Having ranged abilities does not mean that the mobs need to stay at range themselves. That would make no sense and would not work with how WoW works. But it does not preclude having a tank with ranged abilities. Hell, the majority of tank abilities are already ranged. You're not going to suddenly break the game by making that universal for a new spec.

[Ielenia]

Having ranged abilities does not mean that the mobs need to stay at range themselves.

Except... that it what it means. If you have ranged abilities, means you should stay at range from the enemies, which means the enemies should also stay at range from you. And if a tank stays at range from their target, that means they're not taking damage, and are rendering meaningless several if not most of the game's tank mechanics.

Hell, the majority of tank abilities are already ranged.

They're not ranged. Having a small handful of ranged abilities does not mean they're now considered "ranged".

You're not going to suddenly break the game by making that universal for a new spec.

It will:
a) Always cause wipes on bosses that are stationary, such as Kologarn and Krosus if the ranged tank remains at range;
b) Cause headaches to ranged and melee as they'll have to be constantly on the move as the boss runs after the ranged tank that has to keep running to remain at range;
c) Make the whole "ranged" part of "ranged tank" be completely moot and a waste of resources if said tank has to always stay in melee.

[Inoculate]

Playerbase can't even come up with a workable idea for a 3rd spec for evoker and yet people still believe it'll happen. Not even mental gymnastics can create a logical 3rd spec that works mechanically or thematically with current lore and tech.

Not saying it's impossible but just find a class you like now and stop dreaming of maybes.

[Teriz]

Playerbase can't even come up with a workable idea for a 3rd spec for evoker and yet people still believe it'll happen. Not even mental gymnastics can create a logical 3rd spec that works mechanically or thematically with current lore and tech.

Not saying it's impossible but just find a class you like now and stop dreaming of maybes.

Player base speculating on forum =\= Blizzard Devs who do this for a living

[Inoculate]

You're not going to suddenly break the game by making that universal for a new spec.

But you do break the game because the entire point of being ranged is to stay at range. Why even be a range tank of you have to stay in melee game as a core role concept.

Every modern boss is based off a tank being in melee. Some even penalize those that don't. Making a special tank goes against all the balance and homogeneity that is key for modern WoW.

Not saying i like it but it's just how it is.

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Player base speculating on forum =\= Blizzard Devs who do this for a living

They also wouldn't waste resources on a surprise spec mid to late expansion following the three last blunder of expansions while starring down a buyout from Microsoft.

So much risk with little payoff. They can't even get ret right and that's existed since vanilla.

[Gestopft]

I feel like giving the bosses a way to dynamically check if tank is evoker tank and use a ranged ability if tank is evoker tank and outside of y range would solve the issues, especially for melee bosses. Bosses should still walk up to evoker for ability attacks imo

This sounds possible for Sanguine...not to mention the multitude of other times when a tank wants to reposition mobs....

[Berkilak]

Except... that it what it means. If you have ranged abilities, means you should stay at range from the enemies, which means the enemies should also stay at range from you.

According to who? You? Simply to create some arbitrary definition that you can argue against?

This is all asinine anyway - I actively play entirely ranged tanks in ESO and SW:TOR. I think my GW2 tank was entirely ranged, too, now that I think about it. You're actively as if this is some wildly impossible concept when it actively exists in pretty much every active MMO that isn't WoW.

[Triceron]

You're conflating me with someone else. Argue with them, not me.

Having ranged abilities does not mean that the mobs need to stay at range themselves. That would make no sense and would not work with how WoW works. But it does not preclude having a tank with ranged abilities. Hell, the majority of tank abilities are already ranged. You're not going to suddenly break the game by making that universal for a new spec.

All tanks have ranged abilities in some form, so unless you're saying nothing changes, there is no other way to distinguish 'ranged tank' from any current tank that already has ranged abilities.

The point of even talking about ranged tanks and tanking is that the class could be played at range, otherwise we already have DKs and Pallies fully capable of flinging spells from a distance, Bears with Moonfire, Monks tossing kegs, Warriors throwing weapon etc.

Ranged tanking works in other games because they're designed differently.

GW2 is a VERY different system where active dodging and self sustain is built into every character, and expected to be used in full. You don't have traditional tank aggro in the same way as WoW, where simple boss positioning matters and the boss losing focus = insta death.

[Berkilak]

But you do break the game because the entire point of being ranged is to stay at range. Why even be a range tank of you have to stay in melee game as a core role concept.

According to who? Why can I tank on my ranged Dragon Knight in ESO? Why doesn't the game break? Why doesn't SW:TOR crumble to pieces when I tank on my Bounty Hunter?

Having ranged abilities is simply an aspect of the class. In the context of this discussion specifically, it just makes sense for breath and magic attacks to have range, constituting a ranged tank. Mob behaviour is entirely disconnected from this. They can walk up all they want. It doesn't mean that your abilities are not or cannot be ranged just because they entered melee range.

And again, this is demonstrated in multiple games, working perfectly. Like any other boilerplate EQ vein MMO.

Every modern boss is based off a tank being in melee. Some even penalize those that don't. Making a special tank goes against all the balance and homogeneity that is key for modern WoW.

Not saying i like it but it's just how it is.

The tank remains in melee range. Their abilities have a 25 instead of 5 yard range. This is not a difficult concept.

[kranur]

What would be the point of a ranged tank when 99% of the mobs/bosses are melee.
And how would it not be massively better than all other tanks?

[Berkilak]

All tanks have ranged abilities in some form, so unless you're saying nothing changes, there is no other way to distinguish 'ranged tank' from any current tank that already has ranged abilities.

The point of even talking about ranged tanks and tanking is that the class could be played at range, otherwise we already have DKs and Pallies fully capable of flinging spells from a distance, Bears with Moonfire, Monks tossing kegs, Warriors throwing weapon etc.

There is no point, honestly. Tanks likely have more ranged abilities in WoW than they do melee. Outside of ability range, ranged tanks are functionally no different from any other tank. It's much more a thematic distinction than it is mechanical, which is why you see the concept pop up when discussing magic-based tanks.

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All of which, upon reviewing the OP, is in contradiction to what they are proposing.

Yeah, the OP is 100% rubbish.

Apologies, I conflated this thread with the third spec one. Completely missed the OP on this one.

[Ielenia]

According to who? You? Simply to create some arbitrary definition that you can argue against?

No, that is the definition of a ranged class: a class designed to stay at range, away from their targets, should stay at range, away from their targets.

This is all asinine anyway - I actively play entirely ranged tanks in ESO and SW:TOR. I think my GW2 tank was entirely ranged, too, now that I think about it.

Oh, so do you stay at range in those games, or do the bosses run up to you, effectively rendering the whole "ranged" aspect moot?

You're actively as if this is some wildly impossible concept

I said it is impossible to introduce without heavily changing the game regarding how tanking works, and I literally explained why in that very same post you responded to.

when it actively exists in pretty much every active MMO that isn't WoW.

And "every active MMO that isn't WoW" is, guess what: not WoW. WoW has different mechanics.

[Triceron]

There is no point, honestly. Tanks likely have more ranged abilities in WoW than they do melee. Outside of ability range, ranged tanks are functionally no different from any other tank. It's much more a thematic distinction than it is mechanical, which is why you see the concept pop up when discussing magic-based tanks.

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All of which, upon reviewing the OP, is in contradiction to what they are proposing.

Yeah, the OP is 100% rubbish.

Apologies, I conflated this thread with the third spec one. Completely missed the OP on this one.

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree.

Ranged tanking is pointless since WoW is designed primarily around melee-based tanking, and a 'Ranged Tank' is functionally little different than all current tanks, who already have ranged abilities. Just wanted to clarify the topic

[Berkilak]

Oh, so do you stay at range in those games, or do the bosses run up to you, effectively rendering the whole "ranged" aspect moot?

The boss runs up to you and hits you. Yet, your abilities remain ranged. You remain a ranged tank.

But like I just said, I missed the OP here. A ranged tank as they define it has no place in WoW. Nevertheless tanks that are entirely ranged exist. In games that are more-or-less carbon copies of WoW. They work just as well as any other "melee" tank. Giving their abilities range does not fundamentally alter the game. Yet, ranged tanks, they remain.

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Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree.

Ranged tanking is pointless since WoW is designed primarily around melee-based tanking, and a 'Ranged Tank' is functionally little different than all current tanks, who already have ranged abilities. Just wanted to clarify the topic

100%.

I just don't like seeing people attempt to invalidate the concept of, say, a draconic tank using breath attacks because those attacks are ranged and therefore incompatible with serving in the tank role.