Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Ielenia]

Hey, Tinkers pretty much won every future class poll on this forum. Typically by rather large margins, so some people definitely cared about it.

So? That doesn't mean people care about tinkers in general.

If Bard proponents want DnD style Bards, they're playing the wrong game.

The mage class follows the D&D style wizard/sorcerer for the most part.
The paladin class follows the D&D style paladin for the most part.
The priest class follows the D&D style cleric for the most part.
The warrior class follows the D&D style fighter/barbarian for the most part.

So, no, it's not unfeasible to expect a "D&D style bard" for the most part. On top of that, you're the one saying "it's either ETC or D&D" when we keep saying fantasy bard concept. D&D happens to follow that concept, but no one is saying they want the D&D bard.

Blizzard has made it quite clear what type of Bard WoW is going to have, and it's the ETC.

They haven't. Not even by a mile.

I don't like them.

Good on you for admitting it. Now stop telling people how they should enjoy what they like. You wouldn't like it if I kept dictating to you how your tinker class should be, saying that the tinker class' abilities must all have a failure/misfire chance and deal heavy damage to the tinker instead when that happens "because that is what the game presents us", yadda yadda...

Would you?

Hearthstone is still Blizzard,

So is Starcraft, but I doubt we'll see a "terran" race or "marine" class.

Also ETC was in WoW long before he showed up in HS.

Cool. Still not what people who want the bard class want from a bard class. I honestly don't know how hard this is for you to understand.

[Vaedan]

The mage class follows the D&D style wizard/sorcerer for the most part.
The paladin class follows the D&D style paladin for the most part.
The priest class follows the D&D style cleric for the most part.
The warrior class follows the D&D style fighter/barbarian for the most part.

So, no, it's not unfeasible to expect a "D&D style bard" for the most part. On top of that, you're the one saying "it's either ETC or D&D" when we keep saying fantasy bard concept. D&D happens to follow that concept, but no one is saying they want the D&D bard.

True. When you open DnD spellbook, you can find spells like:

Prayer of Healing, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Spike, Magic Missiles, Ray of Frost, Flamestrike, Fireball, Blink, Hex, Polymorph, Searing Smite, Hunter's Mark, Volley... and many more.

Also, few of class/subclass abilities are Cloak of Shadows, Moonfire, Radiance of Dawn, Second Wind... and many more.

Now tell me that DnD concepts have no place in WoW.

[FossilFree]

There's not enough to build a class on. For example, what's the alliance equivalent? Is everyone going to be riding Kodos? Is everyone just going to be carrying out some drums? How do they attack? etc.etc.

The ETC-style Bard is a very complete class concept in comparison.

To be clear, I'm not actually opposed to ETC thematics. But I do think there is room for a broader incorporation of other themes. Perhaps ETC would be the basis for a tank spec called Metal or Heavy Metal. Aggressive music for a front line fighter holding threat.

A "boost" or dps spec called Wardrumming could be based on the orcish theme, with their whole unique shtick being that they can fight while mounted on a ground mount. This would be the traditional battle rhythm music employed by armies throughout history. Usually used to maintain formations and timing between far flung units and brigades and signal a change of tactics. Rhythmic music for someone controlling the pace of battle.

The third spec could be a healer using the standard RPG bard theme, with flutes, lutes, and flamboyant style. Playing dulcet tones that soothe the injured spirits of their comrades. Soft, inspirational music for an empathetic healer type.

[Teriz]

So? That doesn't mean people care about tinkers in general.


The mage class follows the D&D style wizard/sorcerer for the most part.
The paladin class follows the D&D style paladin for the most part.
The priest class follows the D&D style cleric for the most part.
The warrior class follows the D&D style fighter/barbarian for the most part.

So, no, it's not unfeasible to expect a "D&D style bard" for the most part.

It is, because you’re talking about the original classes. I’m talking about the expansion classes, which are more heavily influenced by Blizzard itself, and the thematics of their expansion of entry.

They haven't. Not even by a mile.

Again: Arthas in the credits of TFT, the Bard April fools joke, ETC in WoW and HotS, and now the Hearthstone expansion.

Find another Bard with a comparable resume.

So is Starcraft, but I doubt we'll see a "terran" race or "marine" class.

Characters from Hearthstone have become lore characters in WoW. That’s never happened with StarCraft.

Cool. Still not what people who want the bard class want from a bard class. I honestly don't know how hard this is for you to understand.

I disagree. I’m willing to bet more WoW fans would prefer the ETC style Bard over a DnD Bard. No doubt about it.

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To be clear, I'm not actually opposed to ETC thematics. But I do think there is room for a broader incorporation of other themes. Perhaps ETC would be the basis for a tank spec called Metal or Heavy Metal. Aggressive music for a front line fighter holding threat.

A "boost" or dps spec called Wardrumming could be based on the orcish theme, with their whole unique shtick being that they can fight while mounted on a ground mount. This would be the traditional battle rhythm music employed by armies throughout history. Usually used to maintain formations and timing between far flung units and brigades and signal a change of tactics. Rhythmic music for someone controlling the pace of battle.

Again, what’s the Alliance equivalent?

The third spec could be a healer using the standard RPG bard theme, with flutes, lutes, and flamboyant style. Playing dulcet tones that soothe the injured spirits of their comrades. Soft, inspirational music for an empathetic healer type.

Yeah, I just think that is a cohesive class. It’s pulling too many disparate concepts.

[Ielenia]

It is, because you’re talking about the original classes. I’m talking about the expansion classes,

Which are no different. By the way? The monk class follows the D&D style monk quite well, too. Hell, even down to throwing chi blasts, healing themselves with chi, and having a paralyzing strike.

Find another Bard with a comparable resume.

We don't need one. Monks didn't need one. Evokers didn't need one.

Characters from Hearthstone have become lore characters in WoW. That’s never happened with StarCraft.

You're the one who said "Hearthstone is Blizzard". Again, by that logic, "Starcraft is Blizzard" too.

I disagree.

Of course you do. Facts are meaningless in your crusade to discredit the bard concept by making it look as silly and creatively bankrupt as possible.

I’m willing to bet more WoW fans would prefer the ETC style Bard over a DnD Bard. No doubt about it.

You have this thread showing people fighting back against your attempts at ridiculing the concept... and you still going to cling to that?

[FossilFree]

Again, what’s the Alliance equivalent?

Oh sorry, the healer spec would be super Alliance-y. A traditional Robin Hood type troubadour prancing through the forest.

[loras]

I should start keeping a tally of "threads where Teriz and Lelenia constantly argue back and forth for 10+ pages.".
I swear i've seen this too often already, frankly you two should get recognition by Blizzard for this stuff.

Like, just two gnomes endlesly argueing in the corner of some forgotten library.

[Teriz]

Which are no different. By the way? The monk class follows the D&D style monk quite well, too. Hell, even down to throwing chi blasts, healing themselves with chi, and having a paralyzing strike.

Feel free to provide examples of a DnD Monk that can brew a variety of drinks to empower themselves, and practice martial arts created by Panda people.

We don't need one. Monks didn't need one. Evokers didn't need one.

Monks had Chen. Evokers had Alexstraza and the Dragonflights.

Bards have the ETC. All they need is lore.

I know you don't believe this for some reason, so there's no need to argue that point.

You're the one who said "Hearthstone is Blizzard". Again, by that logic, "Starcraft is Blizzard" too.

And yet you continue to ignore the fact that these characters created in Hearthstone;



Are now in World of Warcraft.

But by all means, continue your straw man....

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Oh sorry, the healer spec would be super Alliance-y. A traditional Robin Hood type troubadour prancing through the forest.

The Kodorider is a healer?

[Ielenia]

Feel free to provide examples of a DnD Monk that can brew a variety of drinks to empower themselves, and practice martial arts created by Panda people.

The D&D monk literally has the Way of the Drunken Master subclass. And they practice martial arts. "Created by panda people" is meaningless, by the way. It's literally just flavor.

Monks had Chen.

Chen wasn't a monk until MoP came along. And there were also no heroes that embodied the 'mistweaving' and 'windwalker' aspects of the monk.

Evokers had Alexstraza and the Dragonflights.

None of them are dracthyrs, nor are they evokers, so no, they didn't have shite.

Bards have the ETC.

Bards don't need ETC, and the bard proponents don't want it.

All they need is lore.

There's already plenty, as I pointed out numerous times in our past conversations.

I know you don't believe this for some reason,

I don't believe lies.

But by all means, continue your straw man....

It's literally not a strawman.

[Teriz]

The D&D monk literally has the Way of the Drunken Master subclass. And they practice martial arts.

And yet not a single ability where you brew drinks to enhance your abilities.

"Created by panda people" is meaningless, by the way. It's literally just flavor.

Class flavor is far from meaningless.

Chen wasn't a monk until MoP came along. And there were also no heroes that embodied the 'mistweaving' and 'windwalker' aspects of the monk.

Irrelevant (and false).

None of them are dracthyrs, nor are they evokers, so no, they didn't have shite.

Irrelevant (and false).

Bards don't need ETC, and the bard proponents don't want it.

Assumption.

There's already plenty, as I pointed out numerous times in our past conversations.

Which is why you can't come up with a single expansion concept to fit the Bard class. I know, I know, "they don't need one".

It's literally not a strawman.

And yet here we are with you yammering about Starcraft while ignoring the fact that we have WoW lore characters who originated in hearthstone.

Feel free to have the last word.

[Ielenia]

And yet not a single ability where you brew drinks to enhance your abilities.

I can tell you have zero experience with D&D. The subclass gains the proficiency with Brewer's Kit, allowing you to craft drinks, especially of the alcoholic beverage, and can even create special drinks depending on your DM.

Class flavor is far from meaningless.

It is meaningless when we're talking about inspiration for the design's concept.

Irrelevant (and false).

It's not false. It's fact. Chen was never considered a monk in the lore until the Mists of Pandaria expansion came along. Until then, he was just a beer aficionado.

Irrelevant (and false).

False? Are you now claiming that Alextrasza and Wrathion are not dragons, but dracthyr? And evokers? Is that what you're claiming here?

Assumption.

I have this thread backing me up.

Which is why you can't come up with a single expansion concept to fit the Bard class. I know, I know, "they don't need one".

Ah, the "bait and switch" fallacy. First you claim "they need lore", and after you're shown to be wrong, you change to "you can't think of an expansion concept for the bard".

And yet here we are with you yammering about Starcraft while ignoring the fact that we have WoW lore characters who originated in hearthstone.

Which doesn't make the ETC any less of a bad idea to use as a base for a bard class.

[Echo of Soul]

According to Kevin Jordan, Chris Metzen has stated that halflings and bards are pretty much banned from ever being added to WoW because he dislikes them.

[FossilFree]

The Kodorider is a healer?

No? I wasn't talking about the kodorider being a healer. I meant the third spec would be a healer spec that has Alliance themes.

[Teriz]

According to Kevin Jordan, Chris Metzen has stated that halflings and bards are pretty much banned from ever being added to WoW because he dislikes them.

Yep. He hated Bards, but he reportedly liked the ETC.

[Graywolfofmibu]

Maybe they should just add Bard as a profession or a non combat class. Travel around the world and buff the players who go to you shows with noncombat buffs.

[loras]

Maybe they should just add Bard as a profession or a non combat class. Travel around the world and buff the players who go to you shows with noncombat buffs.

The ghosts of the dance studio call your name!

[Nightshade711]

Yep. He hated Bards, but he reportedly liked the ETC.

Bards as a gameplay concept ≠ a WoW themed rock/metal band

[Teriz]

Bards as a gameplay concept ≠ a WoW themed rock/metal band

With the HotS hero and HS expansion, they appear to be building in that direction.

[anon5123]

The Feral Druid dual spec lasted until MoP. Feral Druids were definitely not a useless meme spec that entire time.

"in vanilla"

reading comprehension

[Teriz]

"in vanilla"

reading comprehension

What occurred in vanilla is irrelevant if the spec was improved over the course of future expansions.