Diablo 4 is bad.

[BrokenRavens]

What do you find to be the main difference in this leveling experience from D2s? I found the pace seemed similar, the quests more frequent, the story more interesting, and the gameplay more visceral. Comparing the two Act I's, the only thing I can recall in D2 that felt missing from D4 was a mini-puzzle in the standing stones used to create the Tristram portal.

Well, I will try but it’s hard for me to get past the forced shared world. A world where all of us seem to share the same inn room that curiously only has one bed. But even as I try to look beyond having to see other players with their awful character names written in all caps. The story beats felt very forced.

The story started strong with the corrupted village, but it quickly just became obviously clunky. Go to this location a, to talk with someone who tells me to go to location b, to talk with someone who tells me to go to location c,…
It all felt very staged, like a thin veneer of story trying to mask game mechanics, but doing it so very obviously.

In D3 the story kept pushing me foward into dungeons and even very iconic locations like Tristram right away. The story was not strong but at least it felt replay-able. D4 felt tedious for at least the first half of the demo.

I keep thinking of the modern GoW games. I know those are not isometric, but in many ways the core gameplay is very similar. You have build types, dungeons, bosses, open worldish environments… It even has postgame grinding. If GoW was isometric then the comparison between the two games would be obvious. But what GoW did was focus on strong character and world building. It paced out game mechanics between large story sections.
D4 felt like it was built on game and monetary systems first, then had a story placed on it to fit. And that they needed to rush those systems on the player asap.
Here is the blacksmith and a short quest to get you to talk with them.
Here is another vendor with a similar quest.
Oh that third vendor you can’t interact with yet because they only talk to people who are of sufficient level…

Remember in D3 when you saved the various merchants through out the game and that was how the game paced out your interactions with them? It introduced the merchants organically in the story. Not D4 they just flat out tell you can’t talk with them yet. Great story telling…

Now;

• Why was my character important to the story? There appears many other competent adventurers around in this forced shared world. My character did not feel like a “powerful, the one and only hero” with all of them running around. Was it because I got those unexplainable vision things? Is that all?

• Where was my character going on that horse in the beginning? Obviously I was going somewhere, was that not important anymore? Again, there are other hero’s here, why are they putting the “save the world burden” on me? You have an Angel right there even. With an army. The real reason, it’s the story, try not to think so much.

• Why does my character know how to teleport? Could they just have teleported out from that cave in the beginning? I know it’s a game mechanic, but it sure felt clumsy in D4 when it’s just a mechanic that felt “there” rather than earned.

This post is getting long so I will not go on much longer (i am writing this on my phone as well and that is not enjoyable.) I did not get into the rather flat and a bit boring looking skill interface with skills that felt uninspired nor new (I played a barb) nor did I go into wondering why this introductory location to the game had to be a place that was not iconic nor visually interesting.

I will say I think the character transmog was good and I enjoyed the music. The rest though…

[KrayZ33]

Yes I have played all of the diablo games (not “immortal”). All of them when the first released as well.

Have you played them? Because it sounds like you haven’t if you think this is what diablo always was.

The leveling experience is without the doubt the best in the series in D4... I have a hard time taking anyone serious who thinks otherwise.
What I've seen in the first 25 levels in the beta, or in "Act1" that is, was so above and beyond D1-D3.
It's certainly one of the best in the franchise as well, I only know a "few" hack and slash ARPGs however but certainly the ones everyone keeps mentioning in one way or another. Namely:

Titanquest, Grimdawn, VanHelsing, PoE, Wolcen, Torchlight, Paragon, Dungeon Siege and others I just don't remember to even name.

The thing is, Diablo 4 is strictly better than the previous games in the series.
I have to agree with the other guy and ask what the heck did people expect the leveling experience to be? Worse story... or less story like in the previous games? The mob density for leveling/playing through the acts is absolutely normal. Running through dungeons had my screen full of enemies and multiple elites.

The only thing I might argue about is that some classes felt weaker than others but that's "whatever". Especially since it's mentioned how Diablo is/was a "singleplayer-game"
If anyone wants to tell me Diablo 2 had a better leveling experience - oh please shut up

[BrokenRavens]

snip

Answered. With specific examples. One post up.

[liyroot]

To each their own. I walked into the beta with the lowest expectations having suffered the horrible disaster that was D3 launch. I was expecting boring mechanics, a half assed story with the only traces of storytelling being in the once or twice per act cinematics, and even horrible classes. I was immediately surprised walking into it as a fresh sorceress that I was given choices on how to build my character, and felt like I got stronger each time i leveled up. My only complaint was the game felt too easy, even on the hardest difficulty we could do at the time. I'm really hoping that they let us increase that on retail.

All in all, had fun, the game kept me wanting more and I had to force myself to stop playing because I wasn't getting enough sleep.

On Shocking New Today, we have a new story coming in here. A new video game called Diablo 4, made to be as addictive as possible by the developers was beta-tested by a man who calls himself "Itori". He reportedly played the game and, shockingly, "couldn't stop playing". Interesting. More at 7.

[exochaft]

Answered. With specific examples. One post up.

What I can say from very early in the testing phase, the story had its ups and downs, although that may have changed since the closed beta didn't allow campaign exploration (although the NPCs did have dialogue that hinted at what occured). Again, that was very early in testing, it could have radically changed.

When it comes to your bulleted points, I can at least answer the "Why didn't my char teleport out to safety at the start?": Blizz changed how teleports worked through the testing phase. Prior to the open beta, you had to use scrolls of teleportation to teleport home (and there were actually several different types of teleportation scrolls beyond town ones)... so story-wise, you could just be out of them. Also, the scroll vendor disappeared between the closed and open beta. You can chalk it up to a change in game mechanics altered part of how the story works out.

If I wanted to try to contextualize how your play experience went... the game was designed completely around console access with more of a mobile game mentality at its core. Just one look at the UI layout and how you access certain submenus and panels makes is painfully obvious that the game was made with consoles in mind, sometimes at the expense of the PC experience. It ends up having a very Diablo:Immortal feel to it, and I'm not even talking about the end game as some systems are pretty much a copy-> paste of D:Immortal systems. What was kind of sad from my perspective is that there were systems in place during the F&F alpha that were waaaaay more interesting and had a chance to increase the depth of other systems (like crafting)... but many of them were gone by the closed beta with remnants left behind, and open beta seems to have cleared up most of them (although I can't be certain since we were locked to Tier 1 and 2 only). Why did these systems get abanadoned? Could be a number of reasons ranging from they ran out of time or they didn't like their direction (or are saving them for later xpacs), but what I can say is that the game will be launching in a much shallower state than it potentially could have.

I've said this to all my friends who have asked me about the D4 experience during the various testing phases, but I've always felt the best experience is from level 1 to roughly level 30, then the experience starts to suffer depending upon various factors. One factor is the power of your character with respect to the level of the content (since it almost all scales to your level aside from certain areas), as you may bounce back and forth between feeling powerful and feeling weak... it'll vary on your class/build, and is subject to change.

Another factor which had not changed even in the open beta is your gear acquisition: it's way too easy to get full legendary items. Now, I always had a sneaking suspicion in previous testing phases that the legendary drop rates were buffed for testing purposes, and Blizz did confirm that in the open beta. However... you can easily upgrade all your gear to legendaries even by just doing dungeons for aspect powers. Once the legendary drop rate gets reduced, it'll probably be slightly better to some degree, but you run into the problem that you'll feel obligated to constantly upgrade your gear to legendaries very early in the game... because even mediocre ones are that powerful. Personally, I was hoping they'd disable the legendary craft until the end of the campaign and even heavily reduce (or outright stop) legendary items from dropping too early in the game. This isn't even going into the Sacred item issues, as people who only played open beta will have zero experience dealing with this sytem, but it has many issues involved with it to where gearing can be a bit annoying. To reinforce where the source of the problem originated, it was probably the crafting systems in the very early phases of D4 testing... and this is what we're left with.

The dungeons are also going to be an issue, and what people experienced in the open beta is just a small taste of what's to come. If you thought the dungeons were too simplistic or boring... don't expect things to change. Honestly, my favorite dungeons were the ones required to access higher world tiers, but you only get to play those once. Otherwise, saying D4 has 100+ unique dungeons is like saying WoW has 100+ unique caves: while it may technically be true, many are the exact same layout to where there's only a couple templates where only the objective and mobs change. Once people start getting into Nightmare sigil dungeons (i.e. M+ dungeons in D4, as they work almost exactly the same way), you're probably going to get tired of the dungeons reeeeeeeally fast. Some people are fine with mind-numbing grinds (I can be to some degree), but you'll get to the point where you can't tell which specific dungeon you're in because it looks exactly the same as a bunch of others. There's even more issues when it comes to the sigils themselves, the affixes, etc., but I'm hoping they did a lot of adjustments since the closed beta.

...alright, post is getting long so I'll stop here. There's a ton more stuff I could get into (such as the horse mount that I hope they majorly overhauled), but I will say this: D4 is probably going to be a game where people love it or hate it with little in between. I'm hoping Blizz's strategy is that they're hoping people put up with D4 for a couple months after launch to buy time for the first season to really enhance the game, because as-is I don't think D4 will have much of a lasting draw to it. Once people hit D4 end game... well, it's a step up from D3, but not by very much. While I see people say "Well games like PoE/Last Epoch/etc. didn't have a good end game at launch!", the problem Blizz is going to have is that there's other ARPG's out there right now with a more robust experience with whom they have to compete, many of which are cheaper and/or free to play.

[HansOlo]

and that is your opinion. and for me it feels like immortal that has been stretched out and padded out to the point where the kind of tedium you hit in immortal at max level - you get in d4 at lvl 1. I have played the SHIT out of D2 when it first came out and again when expansion was released. I only played resurected in beta, but as it generally felt like the original but with prettier graphics, I just went back to original - which I coincidentally repurchased on bnet when I had a chance, as my old disk refused to play on my new pc (I also bought Diablo1 from GoG the moment they added Hellfire to bundle because I unironically adore that janky but charming expansion). I didn't play d3 at launch, but I played the shit out of it when it came out as a bundle with reaper of souls on ps4 and again recently on my pc. I have no idea how many hours total I have in D1 or D2. a LOT.

and unfortunately I lost an entire month of my life to immortal before I realized that it was affecting my state of mind in a way that I really didn't like.

so I have a very strong basis of comparison here. and as much as I wanted to love D4 and I really genuinely hope that they will adjust it post launch, it just wasn't it. and no "endgame" whatever the hell that may be? will fix that.

but you know. you do you.

No. You do you.

[KrayZ33]

Answered. With specific examples. One post up.

Not really to be honest - these aren't points that somehow put D4 in a worse light than the previous titles.

• Why was my character important to the story? There appears many other competent adventurers around in this forced shared world. My character did not feel like a “powerful, the one and only hero” with all of them running around. Was it because I got those unexplainable vision things? Is that all?

Because, most likely, Lilith - indirectly - awakened your Nephalem powers when you consumed the petals

• Where was my character going on that horse in the beginning? Obviously I was going somewhere, was that not important anymore? Again, there are other hero’s here, why are they putting the “save the world burden” on me? You have an Angel right there even. With an army. The real reason, it’s the story, try not to think so much.

It seems like you did not pay much attention? There is no "save the world burden" on you yet. The reason you seek Lilith is personal. The other heroes you are talking about are allies you are supposed to use to defeat her. It's said so directly as well, I would have guessed it is hard to miss that, but it seems like I was wrong?

• Why does my character know how to teleport? Could they just have teleported out from that cave in the beginning? I know it’s a game mechanic, but it sure felt clumsy in D4 when it’s just a mechanic that felt “there” rather than earned.

Even the game mechanic requires you to sync up with the town to be able to teleport to it. In D3 you got the town portal by defeating the skeleton king - like that makes more sense... It's a point not worth mentioning.

[Stickiler]

Even the game mechanic requires you to sync up with the town to be able to teleport to it. In D3 you got the town portal by defeating the skeleton king - like that makes more sense... It's a point not worth mentioning.

It would have mildly made sense if it was at an impactful moment like killing the Skeleton King, but it's not even then. You get Town Portal when you do a dungeon to get the pieces of the skeleton kings crown to summon the skeleton king, it was at a weirdly non-impactful point in the story.

[KrayZ33]

It would have mildly made sense if it was at an impactful moment like killing the Skeleton King, but it's not even then. You get Town Portal when you do a dungeon to get the pieces of the skeleton kings crown to summon the skeleton king, it was at a weirdly non-impactful point in the story.

Oh, even worse then.

[BrokenRavens]

Not really to be honest - these aren't points that somehow put D4 in a worse light than the previous titles.


Because, most likely, Lilith - indirectly - awakened your Nephalem powers when you consumed the petals

It seems like you did not pay much attention? There is no "save the world burden" on you yet. The reason you seek Lilith is personal. The other heroes you are talking about are allies you are supposed to use to defeat her. It's said so directly as well, I would have guessed it is hard to miss that, but it seems like I was wrong?


Even the game mechanic requires you to sync up with the town to be able to teleport to it. In D3 you got the town portal by defeating the skeleton king - like that makes more sense... It's a point not worth mentioning.

I gave specific examples such as D3 introducing merchants organically in the story vs D4s just greyed out merchants I can’t talk to yet (Can other villagers talk with them? How do they stay in business?). And then here is a horadrim guy who then immediately peace’s out. I guess he is important to the story later, but the story had to introduce him now for some reason. And here is the high priest, who gets a ton of back story then dismisses us. I guess she is important later, but the story had to introduce her for some reason…. But ok…

•••

Did she awaken my powers? I was leveling up in the dungeon (and by killing wolves) before the events in the village, other than my visions, my character did not change a whole lot by being “awakened”. I wonder if there will be stories of players hitting max level before even going to the village…

•••


The reason I seek Lilith is personal? Was that why I was on the horse, I was seeking her? Because in game, in that demo, I don’t think she knows I exist yet.
What happened in the village to my character was personal (and spoiler alert: my character got their revenge).
What Lilith did to the girl was personal, and the “good guys” continually giving me the middle finger felt a bit personal, but that was going against my characters motivation to fight Lilith really.
My character is there to fight demon looking guys, that is the motivation here. They could have given me a back story (my village and everyone I knew got killed off by the followers of Lillith. Who she personally targeted them for destruction… Or something). But nope, in D4 a group of villagers just happened to target me by chance, I guess it’s personal because some entity indirectly set them at me…

•••

I defeat the boss and I learn how to portal. At least there is a cause-affect thing there (and I already said D3’s story was not great). But in D4 it’s not just my character, all the other players can teleport as well, it’s not a “hero only move” anymore.
So why can’t merchants portal to move their goods? Can the high priestess portal? Why not just send me to the next town via a portal? There are so many questions.
In D4 it’s you made it to the main city, here is a portal, moving on… Great.

[Majestic12]

So, with the endgame video being out, we can safely say that all criticism is on point so far.
And the leaks were right.

Tree of Whispers is like world quests from WoW.
Paragon tree is boring and bland.
Fields of Hatred is like the Dark Zone from the Division.

There's been zero creativity put into the game. Blizzard really went out of their way to not design brand new game mechanics like they used to, but simply make D4 a mash-up of other systems - some from other games entirely.

[Aucald]

I gave specific examples such as D3 introducing merchants organically in the story vs D4s just greyed out merchants I can’t talk to yet (Can other villagers talk with them? How do they stay in business?). And then here is a horadrim guy who then immediately peace’s out. I guess he is important to the story later, but the story had to introduce him now for some reason. And here is the high priest, who gets a ton of back story then dismisses us. I guess she is important later, but the story had to introduce her for some reason…. But ok…

Lorath Nahr (the Horadrim guy, introduced in D3) is the narrator of Diablo 4 and appears to be pretty important to its overall story as well. The high priest is visible in the cinematic that occurs in hell with Inarius and Lilith setting up their confrontation, so she presumably figures largely in the story as well. Their appearances in Act 1 are pretty obvious foreshadowing elements.

Did she awaken my powers? I was leveling up in the dungeon (and by killing wolves) before the events in the village, other than my visions, my character did not change a whole lot by being “awakened”. I wonder if there will be stories of players hitting max level before even going to the village…

The ritual where you're forced to consume the weird "blood blossoms" creates some kind of connection between the PC and Lilith, which is likely a plot element that will be explored as the plot continues. Also, the snowstorm has the roads closed around the village - while you get some latitude to explore a small area, you can't leave it and will likely be unable to approach max-level without resuming the linear plot.

The reason I seek Lilith is personal? Was that why I was on the horse, I was seeking her? Because in game, in that demo, I don’t think she knows I exist yet.
What happened in the village to my character was personal (and spoiler alert: my character got their revenge).
What Lilith did to the girl was personal, and the “good guys” continually giving me the middle finger felt a bit personal, but that was going against my characters motivation to fight Lilith really.
My character is there to fight demon looking guys, that is the motivation here. They could have given me a back story (my village and everyone I knew got killed off by the followers of Lillith. Who she personally targeted them for destruction… Or something). But nope, in D4 a group of villagers just happened to target me by chance, I guess it’s personal because some entity indirectly set them at me…

It was my impression that your PC is initially just in the area, and you're actually drawn into the plot by a third party (the strange dog) saving you and inadvertently leading you to the village where you encounter Lilith's new cultists. Your character's motivation is more or less to find out what happened to them in consuming the blood blossoms, and from there you get involved in a random tapestry of plots that invariably lead you to a variety of confrontations. Your involvement in the story is a bit more organic than being entirely backstory-driven. The D4 PC is more a spanner in the works (of Lilith and Inarius) than a paragon driven by an agenda.

I defeat the boss and I learn how to portal. At least there is a cause-affect thing there (and I already said D3’s story was not great). But in D4 it’s not just my character, all the other players can teleport as well, it’s not a “hero only move” anymore.
So why can’t merchants portal to move their goods? Can the high priestess portal? Why not just send me to the next town via a portal? There are so many questions.
In D4 it’s you made it to the main city, here is a portal, moving on… Great.

People are hanging a lot of unnecessary lore on what is essentially a game system providing fast travel. Town portals and navigation waygates aren't really part and parcel of the story itself, and random NPCs can't just portal themselves away whenever they get abducted or encounter demons, etc. It's just a game ability you have to quickly move from place to place, and whether it's awarded or innate is rather immaterial. The fact that it's never been handled consistently across the various Diablo games is more evidence that it's a contrivance and not a story element.

[chiddie]

Dudes have we really reached the point “game is bad because you can just teleport without a 3 hours quest leading you to learn it”?

This is a new low.

[BrokenRavens]

snip

Exactly.

The blatantly obvious plot points and game mechanics existing because “they exist” is what bugs me. D3 wasn’t great at it either, but it tried harder than D4. And again I go back to modern GoW, which introduce mechanics like portals, and craft systems so organically in the plot they almost seem invisible.

And the skill trees which were built specifically for consoles (stop using consoles as an excuse for bad design), looked better and felt more impactful.

[chiddie]

Exactly.

The blatantly obvious plot points and game mechanics existing because “they exist” is what bugs me. D3 wasn’t great at it either, but it tried harder than D4. And again I go back to modern GoW, which introduce mechanics like portals, and craft systems so organically in the plot they almost seem invisible.

And the skill trees which were built specifically for consoles (stop using consoles as an excuse for bad design), looked better and felt more impactful.

STOP comparing ARPGS storylines to non ARPGS storylines. Storyline is NOT the focus of ARPGS. It’s there because it “has” to be there but it’s not the focus of the game developers.

Diablo is not Planescape Torment.

[Aucald]

The blatantly obvious plot points and game mechanics existing because “they exist” is what bugs me. D3 wasn’t great at it either, but it tried harder than D4. And again I go back to modern GoW, which introduce mechanics like portals, and craft systems so organically in the plot they almost seem invisible.

And the skill trees which were built specifically for consoles (stop using consoles as an excuse for bad design), looked better and felt more impactful.

Blatantly obvious plot points and game mechanics existing because they exist have been staples of the Diablo franchise specifically, and ARPGs in general, since the mid-'90s. GoW isn't Diablo, nor is it really in the same vein as the type of ARPG Diablo represents, so comparing its crafting systems and plot doesn't really convey any useful information. Diablo's an action dungeon-crawler whose longevity is based on repeated if randomized grinding for loot as opposed to an immersive if one-shot narratively-driven experience that plays more like a movie.

I would also say D4's skill trees weren't really built specifically for consoles, especially since they basically call back to the skill trees of D2, which wasn't originally released for consoles either. The skill trees also felt plenty impactful to me - no more or less than those in D2 or D3, really. They refine, change, or optimize skills for certain builds; which is exactly what they're supposed to. Unless your argument is entirely aesthetic, in which I can only shrug and say "Whatever floats your boat."

[Aizyn]

So, with the endgame video being out, we can safely say that all criticism is on point so far.
And the leaks were right.

Tree of Whispers is like world quests from WoW.
Paragon tree is boring and bland.
Fields of Hatred is like the Dark Zone from the Division.

There's been zero creativity put into the game. Blizzard really went out of their way to not design brand new game mechanics like they used to, but simply make D4 a mash-up of other systems - some from other games entirely.

I’d just like to point out that “world quests from wow” are actually bounties from Diablo. So you’re complaining that Diablo4 has a diablo system. Just fyi

[infinitemeridian]

There's a ton more stuff I could get into (such as the horse mount that I hope they majorly overhauled)

What was the issue with the mounts?

[BrokenRavens]

Blatantly obvious plot points and game mechanics existing because they exist have been staples of the Diablo franchise specifically, and ARPGs in general, since the mid-'90s. GoW isn't Diablo, nor is it really in the same vein as the type of ARPG Diablo represents, so comparing its crafting systems and plot doesn't really convey any useful information. Diablo's an action dungeon-crawler whose longevity is based on repeated if randomized grinding for loot as opposed to an immersive if one-shot narratively-driven experience that plays more like a movie.

I would also say D4's skill trees weren't really built specifically for consoles, especially since they basically call back to the skill trees of D2, which wasn't originally released for consoles either. The skill trees also felt plenty impactful to me - no more or less than those in D2 or D3, really. They refine, change, or optimize skills for certain builds; which is exactly what they're supposed to. Unless your argument is entirely aesthetic, in which I can only shrug and say "Whatever floats your boat."

If modern (not classic) GoW was isometric it would look and feel exactly like a Arpg. Just imagine GoW in isometric perspective, what exactly is the difference? Being isometric is basically the only difference.

And waving off a more blatant and ham fisted story progression than D3 (and D2 for that matter) with well “that is how they always are” excuse is just weak. Don’t defend bad story telling by Blizzard that way. Other games put more care into their story and are lauded for it. There is nothing about this genre holding it back from good writing and game crafting. It’s not like we are playing Galaga, Space Invaders, or PAC Man here.

[Aucald]

If modern (not classic) GoW was isometric it would look and feel exactly like a Arpg. Just imagine GoW in isometric perspective, what exactly is the difference? Being isometric is basically the only difference.

Not really, no. GoW is a linear single-player experience with very limited scope for repeat play comparatively - the fact that it's not isometric isn't really a factor, the mechanisms of play, overall pacing, and general aesthetic in a gameplay sense are entirely different. You might as well say that Q*bert and Tetris are the same game because both of them feature blocks.

And waving off a more blatant and ham fisted story progression than D3 (and D2 for that matter) with well “that is how they always are” excuse is just weak. Don’t defend bad story telling by Blizzard that way. Other games put more care into their story and are lauded for it. There is nothing about this genre holding it back from good writing and game crafting. It’s not like we are playing Galaga, Space Invaders, or PAC Man here.

I'm not waving anything off, I'm simply saying that not every game requires a deep or epic story in order to be good - and in this case, Diablo is not now nor has even been story-focused. It's a dungeon-crawling grind fest ARPG, that is the core of its gameplay and its true aesthetic. The story has always been tertiary. That *you* may play it for its story in completely incidental, and more just a "you thing" at the end of the day. Precedent is important, and generally speaking, it's not a great idea to completely up-end specific franchise expectations in the name of catering to a niche audience or dramatically redefining what a given franchise is. That's a route to alienating your core audience.

If you want to play Pac-Man, then play Pac-Man. Don't expect a game in the Galaga franchise to suddenly become like Pac-Man.