How should Blizz Balance the Horde and Forsaken?

[Grazrug]

The Night Elves lost their capital city and the majority of their species in the process, so I doubt they're feeling any of this supposed "fairness" you claim, much less the acquisition of territory that was always theirs before a bunch of strangers came to Kalimdor and started throwing their weight around. Also, you aren't the "Forsaken community," and there are a lot of different voices with different opinions in this thread alone.

The Night elves have holdings outside of Teldrassil. Infact if you look on the map their influence stretches between Winterspring and Feralas. But the Forsaken? Bfa pushed them back towards Tirisfal. Now they have nothing just like most Horde races.

[Powerogue]

The Forsaken have developed by leaps and bounds in the 19+ years since the game was released and that Forsaken intro was created.

Your view is one-sided -- and one-sided views are always trying to push an agenda. I'll die on that hill.

Just as the Orcs began as an unambiguously "evil" species, through long-term storytelling they have evolved into largely sympethetic and noble - just as humans are.
Of course, for every evil human, there is also an evil orc - and vice versa.
Forsaken followed the same path. They began as the "problem" race, but were given depth, individuality, and treated more fairly and realistically over the current timeline of WoW. They no longer fit the edgy, teenaged "evil scientist" or "serial killer" agenda, motivated by hatred (just because) and wanting to reform the entire world into their image.

No one quite reflects that as well as Lilian Voss herself, who made a name for herself by shredding her way through the Scarlet Crusade, going down the list and murdering every last one she could get her hands on, then grabbing her former father by the throat, dragging him up a tower, and dropping his mangled body on the stones below.

That's why I was impressed with the SL epilogue. They made this character who reflects everything dark and edgy about the Forsaken find common ground with Calia Menethil in a way I found believable. I had said from the moment Calia entered the story that what will define whether she fits within the Forsaken is how she interacts with Lilian Voss.

[Grazrug]

The Forsaken have developed by leaps and bounds in the 19+ years since the game was released and that Forsaken intro was created.

Your view is one-sided -- and one-sided views are always trying to push an agenda. I'll die on that hill.

Just as the Orcs began as an unambiguously "evil" species, through long-term storytelling they have evolved into largely a sympethetic and noble race - just as humans are.
Of course, for every evil human, there is also an evil orc - and vice versa.
Forsaken followed the same path. They began as the "problem" race, but were given depth, individuality, and treated more fairly and realistically over the current timeline of WoW. They no longer fit the edgy, teenaged "evil scientist" or "serial killer" agenda, motivated by hatred (just because) and wanting to reform the entire world into their image.

I commend Blizzard for undoing the whole "X race is evil, because they're born that way" stance; if that was ever truly their stance to begin with. As the light-imbued Dreadlord who leads the Army of the Light says, "The Light purifies everything!" The Forsaken who still believe in and stay faithful to the Light - despite the physical pain their undead flesh has as a reaction - show a deep and abiding faith that not many humans would show in their place.
(Which is completely within the realm of normalicy and should be expected, as Forsaken are humans, elves, etc, only dead and reanimated."

Of course we push an agenda. Just like Blizzard does. Difference is we give our money to Blizzard because we expect quality. When they turn the Forsaken into something they are not that relationship is betrayed and we stop giving them profits. Praise capitalism.

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There is more to a story, especially a good story, than its characters. And more than that, it is what characters *do* in a story that makes them good, not a prerequisite of being good before they can have a story, to begin with. In your worldview, no other characters could be cultivated or grow in the shadow of preexisting ones - it's a fixed and static story that is destined only for stagnation, basically. The Forsaken lost Sylvanas and now new characters have a chance in the spotlight to grow into beloved ones if that's their fate. Ditto for Cairne and Garrosh, as well.

Okay. Tell me the amazing accomplishements of the leftover Horde cast. What did they do in the neutral plot? How did they faire against the villains of the past expansions? What is their goal besides being friendly with the alliance now? And in what way was their involvement needed which couldn't have been done with the leaders that came before them? And do a comparison to the alliance who didn't lose anyone to the plot and still are carried by the demigods that are praised as heroes who saved the world multiple times. I will wait.

[Aucald]

The Night elves have holdings outside of Teldrassil. Infact if you look on the map their influence stretches between Winterspring and Feralas. But the Forsaken? Bfa pushed them back towards Tirisfal. Now they have nothing just like most Horde races.

Having a bunch of holdings isn't going to help with the loss of the majority of the population from the single major population center. Most of their holdings outside of Teldrassil consisted of tiny villages like Astranaar and Stars' Rest, as well. At least when the Forsaken lost their major population center, it was abandoned first and the Forsaken were made into refugees. The Night Elves perished at Teldrassil.

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Okay. Tell me the amazing accomplishements of the leftover Horde cast. What did they do in the neutral plot? How did they faire against the villains of the past expansions? What is their goal besides being friendly with the alliance now? And in what way was their involvement needed which couldn't have been done with the leaders that came before them? And do a comparison to the alliance who didn't lose anyone to the plot and still are carried by the demigods that are praised as heroes who saved the world multiple times. I will wait.

To what end? You've already committed yourself to minimalizing any such accomplishments or attempting to recontextualize them into losses since they weren't performed by your preferred NPCs. Never mind that they're gained significant resources and lands in the form of Suramar, Zandalar, and Highmountain. They've finally started the process of revitalizing Durotar itself and moving away from being in the center of a resource-poor region. They've abolished a weak political power structure in favor of a demonstrably more stable organization better representative of their varied people, and they've begun to embrace and integrate diverse forces to the mutual benefit of their military as a whole.

Similar gains by the Alliance don't mean the Horde gained nothing, as well. This isn't a game of tit-for-tat where the desired outcome puts either faction at an obvious advantage.

[Grazrug]

Having a bunch of holdings isn't going to help with the loss of the majority of the population from the single major population center. Most of their holdings outside of Teldrassil consisted of tiny villages like Astranaar and Stars' Rest, as well. At least when the Forsaken lost their major population center, it was abandoned first and the Forsaken were made into refugees. The Night Elves perished at Teldrassil.

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To what end? You've already committed yourself to minimalizing any such accomplishments or attempting to recontextualize them into losses since they weren't performed by your preferred NPCs. Never mind that they're gained significant resources and lands in the form of Suramar, Zandalar, and Highmountain. They've finally started the process of revitalizing Durotar itself and moving away from being in the center of a resource-poor region. They've abolished a weak political power structure in favor of a demonstrably more stable organization better representative of their varied people, and they've begun to embrace and integrate diverse forces to the mutual benefit of their military as a whole.

Similar gains by the Alliance don't mean the Horde gained nothing, as well. This isn't a game of tit-for-tat where the desired outcome puts either faction at an obvious advantage.

I assume Mechagon, Kul Tiras, Shadowforge, the Vindicaar, Umbrics elite squad and Stromgarde are much bigger gains then anything the Horde got. The biggest dunk went on the Mag'har who lost Draenor to the light fanatics and are now essentially homeless. I would give Blizzard leverage if we at least had full control of Zandalar and Vorrik would pledge alegiance to Talanji, but that didn't happen and the Zandalari exiles and the Vulpera caravans of Vol'dun are tolerated guests at best.

[Aucald]

I assume Mechagon, Kul Tiras, Shadowforge, the Vindicaar, Umbrics elite squad and Stromgarde are much bigger gains then anything the Horde got. The biggest dunk went on the Mag'har who lost Draenor to the light fanatics and are now essentially homeless. I would give Blizzard leverage if we at least had full control of Zandalar and Vorrik would pledge alegiance to Talanji, but that didn't happen and the Zandalari exiles and the Vulpera caravans of Vol'dun are tolerated guests at best.

As I said, your immediate response is to say "Well the Alliance got more, so the Horde effectively got nothing." The fact that the Horde gained the Mag'har, themselves hardy and battle-hardened veterans, is itself a net gain. The Horde are the only ones who actually gained anything of note from AU Draenor, as well, even if it was just more people. The Alliance, by contrast, lost a substantial garrison in the Spires of Arak as well as one of their storied commanders. The Zandalari are also powerful additions to the Horde ranks, and in the Vulpera Allied Race quest chain, the Vulpera showed themselves to be very effective facilitators and organizers that the Horde Council can and should leverage to shore up and improve their logistics chains.

[Grazrug]

As I said, your immediate response is to say "Well the Alliance got more, so the Horde effectively got nothing." The fact that the Horde gained the Mag'har, themselves hardy and battle-hardened veterans, is itself a net gain. The Horde are the only ones who actually gained anything of note from AU Draenor, as well, even if it was just more people. The Alliance, by contrast, lost a substantial garrison in the Spires of Arak as well as one of their storied commanders. The Zandalari are also powerful additions to the Horde ranks, and in the Vulpera Allied Race quest chain, the Vulpera showed themselves to be very effective facilitators and organizers that the Horde Council can and should leverage to shore up and improve their logistics chains.

If Blizzard claims we got something, then I want it will all strings attached. They went out of their way with designing hubs for each alliance allied race but the Vulpera and Mag'har got nothing out of it. AU Draenor was the perfect counter for the advantage of resources the alliance had over the Horde for a long time. But now it is being used as staging ground for another crusade of a cosmic force who seeks to subjugate the entire cosmos. That is a pretty huge plot point that was dropped after the recruitment is over.

[Powerogue]

To what end? You've already committed yourself to minimalizing any such accomplishments or attempting to recontextualize them into losses since they weren't performed by your preferred NPCs. Never mind that they're gained significant resources and lands in the form of Suramar, Zandalar, and Highmountain. They've finally started the process of revitalizing Durotar itself and moving away from being in the center of a resource-poor region. They've abolished a weak political power structure in favor of a demonstrably more stable organization better representative of their varied people, and they've begun to embrace and integrate diverse forces to the mutual benefit of their military as a whole.

I really appreciated how that was integrated into the Orc heritage campaign. They have you cook various traditional orc dishes, but many of the ingredients simply don't exist anymore due to the ruination of Outland. So they call upon their diverse allies among the Horde as a whole to substitute ingredients, and the feast is a huge success. Despite fears during Garrosh's time that the orcs were "weak" for relying on their allies, they seem to be doing better than ever now as Orgrimmar is still, despite all its been through, the hub of the Horde.

The Forsaken, likewise, have found strength in their varied outlooks and perspectives. They're a race that has always varied wildly between priests who would dedicate themselves to healing despite the same magic burning their undead flesh to people who rename their new undead forms Lord Executus Von Murderdeath and make potions out of puppies. They're a weird bunch, and following the Sylvanas schism there's hopefully more like the former and less of the latter, but as long as they're all still allied with the Horde, they have a seat at the Desolate Council.

[Hugnomo]

Like most things, I don't know that opinions expressed by a few dozen people on twitter or on a forum really represent the overwhelming majority of players. Therefore, I have difficulty accepting the framing that "forsaken players" are discontent with the current direction of the race, as I don't really have a meaningful way to acess how most players feel about it. And of course, this goes for any discussion about "player sentiment" or "majority opinon" on this game.

Personaly, I like Calia, and I've always liked the Forsaken as a "tragic, misunderstood people, ostracized, abused and psychologically damaged but still human at heart". Which is a descriptor that has been there since vanilla. So that is perfectly in line with the horde. Honorable outcasts.
Going forward, I'm very excited to see where the narrative is going. And how the forsaken may flourish as they carve out their place and purpose on Azeroth - as completely self-determined people.

EDIT: My mother works in palliative care. So I've always been fond of positively and humanely approaching the prospect of death (and in this case undeath). So even here, I feel like there's a cool, positive contribution that could be explored by the forsaken, or even specifically, the apothecaries.

[Grazrug]

Like most things, I don't know that opinions expressed by a few dozen people on twitter or on a forum really represent the overwhelming majority of players. Therefore, I have difficulty accepting the framing that "forsaken players" are discontent with the current direction of the race, as I don't really have a meaningful way to acess how most players feel about it. And of course, this goes for any discussion about "player sentiment" or "majority opinon" on this game.

Personaly, I like Calia, and I've always liked the Forsaken as a "tragic, misunderstood people, ostracized, abused and psychologically damaged but still human at heart". Which is a descriptor that has been there since vanilla. So that is perfectly in line with the horde. Honorable outcasts.
Going forward, I'm very excited to see where the narrative is going. And how the forsaken may flourish as they carve out their place and purpose on Azeroth - as completely self-determined people.

EDIT: My mother works in palliative care. So I've always been fond of positively and humanely approaching the prospect of death (and in this case undeath). So even here, I feel like there's a cool, positive contribution that could be explored by the forsaken, or even specifically, the apothecaries.

Play Hillsbrad and Silverpine. That gives you the best impression of who the Forsaken are. And as was stated by pretty much every Horde avatar in this forum as much as the official forum, that is the fantasy of the race we want to play as. And I hope Blizzard is willing to listen and not turn us into regular humans with a bad skin condition.

[Hugnomo]

Play Hillsbrad and Silverpine. That gives you the best impression of who the Forsaken are. And as was stated by pretty much every Horde avatar in this forum as much as the official forum, that is the fantasy of the race we want to play as. And I hope Blizzard is willing to listen and not turn us into regular humans with a bad skin condition.

Personaly, I find it more positive to ask instead of assuming I haven't played whatever part of the game. You know, the old adage about assumptions.
So, I have played Hillsbrad and Silverpine. I have played every zone thus far since I started playing at the launch of TBC. I stand by what I said.
There's different faces to the forsaken, especially over the years. There's characters that are more cruel and violent, there's characters that are more humane, just trying to survive and deal with their trauma. Both these characterizations have been present since vanilla.

And personally, I've always felt like the resentment and villainy of some of the forsaken weren't fit for a permanent status quo. Because they were the result of a specific arc, that has ended. The race and the characters developing throughout their story arc is a positive thing in my opinion. It enriches and heightens their lore. Having dealt with their abuser, left by their leader to whom they devoted their lives, now leaves them to make something of themselves and grow beyond their traumas.
That's my opinion. I accept you have a different one. I don't accept any pretense at an objective and superior view on this matter, as it is a totally subjective discussion. Unfortunately, people on here tend to mistake their opinions for facts and/or representing the majority of the playerbase.

[danki1337]

Blizzard should allow people to leave either faction and then just be factionless and able to take quests from either faction then that removes all the story issues since we know for a fact there's many factionless characters that help either side from time to time

the major plothole in your thinking is, what if a human does not want to work wiith forsaken? what if the night elf who lost family, friends, loved ones in the burning does not want to work with you? it simply will never happen and the lore implications would make it impossible anyway

[Unholyground]

the major plothole in your thinking is, what if a human does not want to work wiith forsaken? what if the night elf who lost family, friends, loved ones in the burning does not want to work with you? it simply will never happen and the lore implications would make it impossible anyway

I'm not sure how it won't work with lore it's not like blizzard hasn't constantly shit on their own lore anyway, it's also a fantasy game so I don't understand the logic behind your statement.

[Grazrug]

Personaly, I find it more positive to ask instead of assuming I haven't played whatever part of the game. You know, the old adage about assumptions.
So, I have played Hillsbrad and Silverpine. I have played every zone thus far since I started playing at the launch of TBC. I stand by what I said.
There's different faces to the forsaken, especially over the years. There's characters that are more cruel and violent, there's characters that are more humane, just trying to survive and deal with their trauma. Both these characterizations have been present since vanilla.

And personally, I've always felt like the resentment and villainy of some of the forsaken weren't fit for a permanent status quo. Because they were the result of a specific arc, that has ended. The race and the characters developing throughout their story arc is a positive thing in my opinion. It enriches and heightens their lore. Having dealt with their abuser, left by their leader to whom they devoted their lives, now leaves them to make something of themselves and grow beyond their traumas.
That's my opinion. I accept you have a different one. I don't accept any pretense at an objective and superior view on this matter, as it is a totally subjective discussion. Unfortunately, people on here tend to mistake their opinions for facts and/or representing the majority of the playerbase.

I fell in love with the maniacs. People like Calia were not a thing until Before the Storm came out. The Forsaken identity was set in stone at that point. And I fight to get that back. That is why I want to have the Black Bride and Mortuus to have their due since they are a very important part of Forsaken culture as well. Being the Grand Executor comes with priviliges.

[Mehrunes]

Genn's claim isn't borne up by reality, though - and Genn is well known for rhetorical extremes in any case. His claiming a thing doesn't make it a reality. Occupation also doesn't matter overly if control of the land remains largely in flux and it can't be utilized in any real sense. It would be akin to owning a plot of land that also happened to be a federal superfund site. Congratulations on being a landowner, but the land is poison and you can't actually do anything with it.

If you want to pretend that the leader of Gilneas doesn't know the state of Gilneas, be my guest, but that assumption has nothing to back it other than harping on the control over it being in flux circa five years before BtS when GLF temporarily turned the tide. And then immediatelly flopped on its face five minutes later after Sylvanas wiped out their SI:7 backers and forced Crowley to fuck off by holding his daughter hostage. Meanwhile Genn reaffirms that Gilneas is yet to be reclaimed during War of Thorns. But I guess Genn was talking about reclaiming it from the new arch-enemy of the Worgen that forced the Forsaken out beforehand, which would be the local marmots. The author just forgot to mention this key development but it's totally what happened.

Or, you know, the suggestion from Calia at the end of SL that you misrepresented into a done deal. Because it'd be rather hard for the Desolate Council to return to Gilneans something they don't currently have. If Gilneas was controlled by the marmots then the Forsaken trying to return it to the Worgen would be nothing more than a fraudulent transaction. And since Calia carries the most Blanduin pathogens on this side of Baine's self-mutilated ass, her bones would flat out break after even entertaining such a prospect.

A status quo that is also more or less unchanged post-Shadowlands.

So is it the unchanged status quo or did the Forsaken obtain Alliance good-will by returning Gilneas to them?

Credit where credit is due for Sylvanas creating the Forsaken as an entity, sure; but that doesn't imply she went on to be a great leader - and that's beyond the fact that she ultimately betrayed all of them when she joined the Jailer in his omnicidal conquest of reality. I also doubt the Forsaken refugees shuffling into Orgrimmar were beyond grateful for Sylvanas' supposed tactical brilliance when they lost their homes and livelihoods in a strategy that ultimately failed in both the short-term (the attempt to kill the assembled Alliance leaders) and long-term (she was betraying the entirety of Azeroth anyways) senses.

Putting aside how the Alliance leadership only survived through half a dozen deus ex machinas, one of which doesn't make sense even as a deus ex machina (Alleria warping in with Mekkatorque did jack shit to actually counter the prospect of the breaching force getting hit with yet another dose of the Blight that just routed the Alliance army five minutes earlier that was Alliance's "oh shit" moment at the time) aside, the Blight bombing of Undercity forced the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription for their next major campaign, so your assesment is incorrect regardless. Which makes your attempt at cherry-picking just one aspect of Sylvanas' reign I mentioned in order to proclaim all of her reign as not great all the more suspect.

Which, again, sounds more like "one drop" Red Scare fearmongering.

Because WoW is known for sharing the spotlight across a wide range of characters for each race instead of the leaders hogging 99% of it. Sure. Just look at the rest of the totally not Blanduinized Horde in Shadows Rising where the only one still exhibiting anything resembling a spine in regards to the Alliance is Talanji. Who, as per her deal with Sylvanas, isn't actually a full fledged Horde member and instead is just allied to it.

[Aucald]

If you want to pretend that the leader of Gilneas doesn't know the state of Gilneas, be my guest, but that assumption has nothing to back it other than harping on the control over it being in flux circa five years before BtS when GLF temporarily turned the tide. And then immediatelly flopped on its face five minutes later after Sylvanas wiped out their SI:7 backers and forced Crowley to fuck off by holding his daughter hostage. Meanwhile Genn reaffirms that Gilneas is yet to be reclaimed during War of Thorns. But I guess Genn was talking about reclaiming it from the new arch-enemy of the Worgen that forced the Forsaken out beforehand, which would be the local marmots. The author just forgot to mention this key development but it's totally what happened.

Or, you know, the suggestion from Calia at the end of SL that you misrepresented into a done deal. Because it'd be rather hard for the Desolate Council to return to Gilneans something they don't currently have. If Gilneas was controlled by the marmots then the Forsaken trying to return it to the Worgen would be nothing more than a fraudulent transaction. And since Calia carries the most Blanduin pathogens on this side of Baine's self-mutilated ass, her bones would flat out break after even entertaining such a prospect.

Given that the nominal leader of Gilneas isn't *in* Gilneas, and hasn't been for years, why would they know the state of Gilneas? To my knowledge, Genn hasn't been taking any tours of Gilneas since their original flight from the region back in Cata and doesn't seem to have any kind of spy network in place that would keep him informed of the goings-on there, either. Gilneas was and remains a war zone in which any number of independent actors are present (e.g. Hiram Creed and his goons), it's gone way beyond easy manageability for a king who is essentially in exile in another kingdom.

Calia's proposition is a political gesture and little else - it means the Forsaken will surrender all claims to the region, and not actively fight any Gilneans who wish to return to resettle it. It doesn't, however, do anything about the current state of the region and any other groups operating within it. The Gileans would no doubt need the support of the rest of the Alliance forces (as well as sufficient funds) to actually retake and hold Gilneas and then rebuild.

So is it the unchanged status quo or did the Forsaken obtain Alliance good-will by returning Gilneas to them?

Obtaining goodwill doesn't necessarily change a status quo, as I'm sure you well know. A cessation of active conflict doesn't imply or entail that hostilities no longer exist.

Putting aside how the Alliance leadership only survived through half a dozen deus ex machinas, one of which doesn't make sense even as a deus ex machina (Alleria warping in with Mekkatorque did jack shit to actually counter the prospect of the breaching force getting hit with yet another dose of the Blight that just routed the Alliance army five minutes earlier that was Alliance's "oh shit" moment at the time) aside, the Blight bombing of Undercity forced the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription for their next major campaign, so your assesment is incorrect regardless. Which makes your attempt at cherry-picking just one aspect of Sylvanas' reign I mentioned in order to proclaim all of her reign as not great all the more suspect.

So is the argument above basically "Sylvanas' reign was okay because some of the Alliance's battle tactics are badly written?" Not sure I follow that chain of logic, to be honest. More to the point, Sylvanas engineered the Blighting of the Undercity and its effective destruction to ostensibly kill the assembled Alliance leaders while she was monologing at them in the throne room, an act that (in addition to the rest of the flagrant use of Blight) cost the Forsaken their home and made them refugees in Orgrimmar. The entire gambit ultimately resulted in a net loss for the Horde, and most especially the Forsaken, who lost what little they had for what ended up being less than nothing by the time BfA came to its ultimate close. What part of that would you consider "great?" Add to that Sylvanas' continued and admitted use of the Forsaken as nothing but tools to achieve an end, and I would say that the picture painted isn't great.

Because WoW is known for sharing the spotlight across a wide range of characters for each race instead of the leaders hogging 99% of it. Sure. Just look at the rest of the totally not Blanduinized Horde in Shadows Rising where the only one still exhibiting anything resembling a spine in regards to the Alliance is Talanji. Who, as per her deal with Sylvanas, isn't actually a full fledged Horde member and instead is just allied to it.

More because your definition of "Blanduinized " basically boils down to any Horde character that has ever spoken to an Alliance character outside the context of war. If a Horde NPC so much as breathed the same air as an Alliance NPC it seems like you would accuse them of treason and "disloyalty."

[Grazrug]

Given that the nominal leader of Gilneas isn't *in* Gilneas, and hasn't been for years, why would they know the state of Gilneas? To my knowledge, Genn hasn't been taking any tours of Gilneas since their original flight from the region back in Cata and doesn't seem to have any kind of spy network in place that would keep him informed of the goings-on there, either. Gilneas was and remains a war zone in which any number of independent actors are present (e.g. Hiram Creed and his goons), it's gone way beyond easy manageability for a king who is essentially in exile in another kingdom.

Calia's proposition is a political gesture and little else - it means the Forsaken will surrender all claims to the region, and not actively fight any Gilneans who wish to return to resettle it. It doesn't, however, do anything about the current state of the region and any other groups operating within it. The Gileans would no doubt need the support of the rest of the Alliance forces (as well as sufficient funds) to actually retake and hold Gilneas and then rebuild.



Obtaining goodwill doesn't necessarily change a status quo, as I'm sure you well know. A cessation of active conflict doesn't imply or entail that hostilities no longer exist.



So is the argument above basically "Sylvanas' reign was okay because some of the Alliance's battle tactics are badly written?" Not sure I follow that chain of logic, to be honest. More to the point, Sylvanas engineered the Blighting of the Undercity and its effective destruction to ostensibly kill the assembled Alliance leaders while she was monologing at them in the throne room, an act that (in addition to the rest of the flagrant use of Blight) cost the Forsaken their home and made them refugees in Orgrimmar. The entire gambit ultimately resulted in a net loss for the Horde, and most especially the Forsaken, who lost what little they had for what ended up being less than nothing by the time BfA came to its ultimate close. What part of that would you consider "great?" Add to that Sylvanas' continued and admitted use of the Forsaken as nothing but tools to achieve an end, and I would say that the picture painted isn't great.



More because your definition of "Blanduinized " basically boils down to any Horde character that has ever spoken to an Alliance character outside the context of war. If a Horde NPC so much as breathed the same air as an Alliance NPC it seems like you would accuse them of treason and "disloyalty."

Are the Forsaken able to hold their parts of Hillsbrad, Silverpine and Andorhal? If not then you have your answer. I would trade with the night elves any given day. Because that would mean the Horde finally controls the majority of Kalimdor instead of just the eastern coast.

[username993720]

Just because you are savage doesn't mean you are evil. That fits Orcs since they lived in villages at best. But Trolls built marvellous cities all over the world.

Previously cannibals, practice dark voodoo magic, decapitate and shrink the heads of their victims.

I hate the Frostwolf clan more then any other, they are not honorable, not when the Chieftain of the Frostwolf clan, Durotan betrayed the Draenei and led a warparty to Telmor and murder everyone in the city. Considering the fact that he was saved as a child by the people of this town.

Pretty much.

[Aucald]

Are the Forsaken able to hold their parts of Hillsbrad, Silverpine and Andorhal? Of not then you have your answer. I would trade with the night elves any given day. Because that would mean the Horde finally controls the majority of Kalimdor instead of just the eastern coast.

The Night Elves aren't really able to hold onto their far-flung outposts and communities, either - they no longer have the population to do so. Fortunately, they're not under attack at the moment, but should they be, the Night Elves would be in dire straits. If you're saying you'd rather have the Forsaken population decimated and the Night Elves restored, well, I'd question your Horde partisan credentials. Territory means nothing if war has reduced your population to almost nothing.

[Grazrug]

Previously cannibals, practice dark voodoo magic, decapitate and shrink the heads of their victims.



Pretty much.

Warcraft is very eurocentric in terms of civilization. That has tarnished the reputation of most Horde races. Stormwind is literally your generic medieval european kingdom.

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The Night Elves aren't really able to hold onto their far-flung outposts and communities, either - they no longer have the population to do so. Fortunately, they're not under attack at the moment, but should they be, the Night Elves would be in dire straits. If you're saying you'd rather have the Forsaken population decimated and the Night Elves restored, well, I'd question your Horde partisan credentials. Territory means nothing if war has reduced your population to almost nothing.

Their army is fully intact wich they currently use to assault Barrens, Azshara and the warsong lumber cmap in Ashenvale. They didn't sign the peace treaty so for them the war is still going on.