looting in Americas cities

[Kokolums]

This is, by the by, complete bullshit. Every single major step forward with regards to civil rights and freedoms has been marked by rioting by the oppressed. And with good reason. The people opposing the rioting oppose the movement behind the riots; those opposed to Stonewall were homophobes, those who opposed race riots seeking racial equity were racists, and so forth. Nothing more.

If you owned a store, and it was looted, would that be OK? What if you had a storage unit and it was looted. Would that be OK? What if the oppressed looted your domicile? Would that be oK? I'm just wondering if you draw a line anywhere.

[Edge-]

Do you think there is looting going on in major cities right now? Do you think it is at increased levels? Do you think the looting should be decriminalized if it is going on?

What I think or what fantasies you conjure up in your head is pretty irrelevant.

You haven't established this thread is anything beyond your continued overactive imagination, and I have little interest in discussing your fantasies.

Show us the data.

[Endus]

I did not make a claim.

It's right here in your opening post. Don't lie to my face and pretend you're being civil;

how does this forum feeling about the rise of looting in Americas cities in 2023?

Did you see the video of looting in Chicago? Do you believe that video is real? What do you think should be done to those looters?

Sure. Yes. Nothing meaningful, because there's far greater issues at stake. If you're more concerned with punishing rioters than dealing with the issues that sparked the riot, you're part of the problem, not someone seeking solutions.

[Fugus]

There's so many illicit methods used in all this. I worked for a call center that didn't let you "punch in" until you started taking calls, but you were expected to check your office mail and such for procedure updates and so on before you logged in for the day, so you technically weren't getting paid for that time. Or regularly expecting 15-29 minutes of "overtime" but store policy didn't count it unless it was a full half-hour over the scheduled time.

Little tiny shavings of wages off thousands or millions of employees really add up. Nobody should be in any way concerned about petty losses due to looting/shoplifting until we get comprehensive labor reforms which put an end to all forms of wage theft. Stores literally carry insurance against losses like these, and it's already mathed into their operating costs, because in a lot of cases, it's literally not worth trying to prevent, to the company. So it gets my dander up when people wring their hands and cry crocodile tears for the poor, unfortunate megacorporations run by billionaires.

Our salaried managers at Walmart honestly could have a field day on that one. They were salaried and scheduled for 48 hours weeks but actually had to put in 52 weeks because they would have to have overlap for changing over with the other manager on shift change but Walmart wouldn't schedule that in, so you had to get to work about an hour early to relieve them and then your replacement had to come in an hour early for your shift change. Four hours of extra time every week REQUIRED that their pay didn't budget for.

[Endus]

If you owned a store, and it was looted, would that be OK?

If I owned a store and did the minimum for meeting my obligations as a responsible business owner, I'd have insurance and understand that handling things like this is literally part of running a business.

What if you had a storage unit and it was looted. Would that be OK? What if the oppressed looted your domicile? Would that be oK? I'm just wondering if you draw a line anywhere.

You're shifting way past what "looting" even means so I'm just flat-out not going to entertain your ever-moving goalposts as an argument, and just point out that you're being openly dishonest with the conflations.

[Elder Millennial]

i notice there is no thread on this. how does this forum feeling about the rise of looting in Americas cities in 2023? some feel this is why companies like wal mart or rite aid are closing stores. some blame ineffective democrat leadership in los angeles, chicago, etc for the looting.
do you support or oppose the rioting?

Step 1. Google the definition of "looting".
Step 2. Google the definition of "shoplifting".
Step 3. Go away.

Mods, how is this entire thread not trolling and flame bait? Asking for a friend.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If you owned a store, and it was looted, would that be OK? What if you had a storage unit and it was looted. Would that be OK? What if the oppressed looted your domicile? Would that be oK? I'm just wondering if you draw a line anywhere.

The biggest concern isn’t going to come from Walmart for example they’re covered. Certain models are built into the formula.

The problem is going to come from smaller and more independent retailers or some cases specialty shops.

Because make no mistake big retailers already have a tap out time. Worse comes the worst they’ll close the store and move it to more affluent neighborhoods.

Which is exactly in many places happening right now. And the ones being fucked and consequently under policed are hurt the most.

Again looting and rioting is fucking stupid and counterproductive.

[Linkedblade]

Citation needed, both for any supposed increase in "looting" and that it's having any meaningful impact.

Additionally, you've immediately shat on your own question by trying to conflate rioting with looting. Not the same thing.

Worse; is there even much actual rioting? Because if you're just conflating normal (if loud and bothersome) protesting as "rioting", you're an extremist who's attacking civil rights.

On general principle, though, I hold to "if you see someone stealing from Wal-Mart or some other major corporation, no you didn't." Those corporations have their own loss-management measures and calculations; if they're not paying me, personally, to protect that, I have no opinion and I will not in any way give them any help or support in that endeavour. Get back to me when we've handled wage theft at that corporate level, because wage theft absolutely dwarfs all other forms of theft and it isn't even close; https://www.epi.org/publication/wage...theft-workers/

[IMG]https://tcworkerscenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Wage-Theft-vs-Other-Theft-1024x730.jpg[IMG]

Don't ask me to sympathize with the big corporations whose own thefts vastly outpace any possible losses due to burglary or shoplifting.

He never said protests. But there seems to be waves of people gathering and then destroying property/looting. I've seen it a bunch in Phili, and you see non-stop reports of larceny in large cities, especially ones that have stopped bail and with liberal attorney generals: in particular NYC and LA.

The most recent situation is with Walmart in Chicago and closing it stores. I know Walmart is one of the highest in wage theft, but it's also the largest employer. Wage theft also is irrelevant to theft. They specifically tell you when you're hired: do not work of the clock. Along with making sure you take your breaks. That's they way it's supposed to be nationwide. If not, that's on that store's management.

And when it comes to Walmarts national profits vs a store, it's two separate portfolios. An individual store's profits cover that store's cost, regular P&L situation. Corporate walmart makes money off of a variety of things, store sales isn't one of them. They do get paid rent though.

When it came to stores in rough areas, as long as they could keep hiring people they will keep a store open. They will dump millions into a store to keep it open. Corporate walmart doens't care is a store is in the red. If they close it, it means they weren't able to keep it operating safely. That includes workers' and shoppers' safety.

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ever-moving goalposts

Funny how you immediately turned to wage theft.

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This is, by the by, complete bullshit. Every single major step forward with regards to civil rights and freedoms has been marked by rioting by the oppressed. And with good reason. The people opposing the rioting oppose the movement behind the riots; those opposed to Stonewall were homophobes, those who opposed race riots seeking racial equity were racists, and so forth. Nothing more.

Ah yes, the rooftop koreans in LA were racists. Right.

[Kathandira]

Citation needed, both for any supposed increase in "looting" and that it's having any meaningful impact.

Additionally, you've immediately shat on your own question by trying to conflate rioting with looting. Not the same thing.

Worse; is there even much actual rioting? Because if you're just conflating normal (if loud and bothersome) protesting as "rioting", you're an extremist who's attacking civil rights.

On general principle, though, I hold to "if you see someone stealing from Wal-Mart or some other major corporation, no you didn't." Those corporations have their own loss-management measures and calculations; if they're not paying me, personally, to protect that, I have no opinion and I will not in any way give them any help or support in that endeavour. Get back to me when we've handled wage theft at that corporate level, because wage theft absolutely dwarfs all other forms of theft and it isn't even close; https://www.epi.org/publication/wage...theft-workers/



Don't ask me to sympathize with the big corporations whose own thefts vastly outpace any possible losses due to burglary or shoplifting.

Off topic, I hate these graphs. That is all. Thank you for your time.

[Endus]

He never said protests.

Right-wingers love pretending that protests are "riots" just because they got a little spicy, not understanding what "riot" actually means.

But there seems to be waves of people gathering and then destroying property/looting. I've seen it a bunch in Phili, and you see non-stop reports of larceny in large cities, especially ones that have stopped bail and with liberal attorney generals: in particular NYC and LA.

Citations needed, yet again. Definitely not taking your word, or anyone's, for it. This stuff happens, but there's already measures protecting against it, and you've yet to make any argument the issue is getting worse or exceeding norms.

The most recent situation is with Walmart in Chicago and closing it stores. I know Walmart is one of the highest in wage theft, but it's also the largest employer. Wage theft also is irrelevant to theft.

The fuck it is. Wage theft is theft. If you ask me which is worse, shorting employees 30 minutes of pay or stealing a TV, it's 100% gonna be the wage theft.

I have no reason whatsoever to give any consideration at all to the losses a megacorporation faces due to shoplifting.

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Funny how you immediately turned to wage theft.

Yes, I made a counterpoint. Do you not understand how debate works?

Ah yes, the rooftop koreans in LA were racists. Right.

Didn't say or imply that at all. But I guess that's all you've got.

[Doctor Amadeus]

He never said protests. But there seems to be waves of people gathering and then destroying property/looting. I've seen it a bunch in Phili, and you see non-stop reports of larceny in large cities, especially ones that have stopped bail and with liberal attorney generals: in particular NYC and LA.

The most recent situation is with Walmart in Chicago and closing it stores. I know Walmart is one of the highest in wage theft, but it's also the largest employer. Wage theft also is irrelevant to theft. They specifically tell you when you're hired: do not work of the clock. Along with making sure you take your breaks. That's they way it's supposed to be nationwide. If not, that's on that store's management.

And when it comes to Walmarts national profits vs a store, it's two separate portfolios. An individual store's profits cover that store's cost, regular P&L situation. Corporate walmart makes money off of a variety of things, store sales isn't one of them. They do get paid rent though.

When it came to stores in rough areas, as long as they could keep hiring people they will keep a store open. They will dump millions into a store to keep it open. Corporate walmart doens't care is a store is in the red. If they close it, it means they weren't able to keep it operating safely. That includes workers' and shoppers' safety.

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Funny how you immediately turned to wage theft.

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Ah yes, the rooftop koreans in LA were racists. Right.

Do keep in mind some news organizations are reporting about some of this shit with the desired effect of boosting ratings. These are the same groups like Sinclair broadcasting who don’t give a single solitary shit either. Because they know what sensationalized even if manipulated viewers don’t.

Property crime is up plenty of places are having an issue with low policing.

But don’t over look all the bad actors. As for wage theft being no big deal.

How about embezzling or general management colluding with organized crime. It’s not just theft or looting causing most of the loss where it happens.

[Endus]

How about embezzling or general management colluding with organized crime. It’s not just theft or looting causing most of the loss where it happens.

That'd fall under "larceny" in the graph I linked. Not anywhere close to the scale of wage theft.

[Fugus]

Noticing they are going for the "Crime in large cities" approach which is disingenuous when they should be going with a "Crime per capita" approach which actually looks at the crimes normalized against population size but that doesn't say what they want it to so they have to avoid it.

[Edge-]

Noticing they are going for the "Crime in large cities" approach which is disingenuous when they should be going with a "Crime per capita" approach which actually looks at the crimes normalized against population size but that doesn't say what they want it to so they have to avoid it.

Also a distinct lack of any links showing that this is more than just the fantasies of a bunch of conservatives.

[Endus]

Noticing they are going for the "Crime in large cities" approach which is disingenuous when they should be going with a "Crime per capita" approach which actually looks at the crimes normalized against population size but that doesn't say what they want it to so they have to avoid it.

Use the data table here and scroll right to sort "property crime" from highest to lowest per capita;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_crime_rate

Chicago's down at #55. Not exactly a national leader.

And before anyone says it; feel free to use the same tool for violent crime, I'm only citing property crime because that's what looting falls under.

[Fugus]

Use the data table here and scroll right to sort "property crime" from highest to lowest per capita;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_crime_rate

Chicago's down at #55. Not exactly a national leader.

And before anyone says it; feel free to use the same tool for violent crime, I'm only citing property crime because that's what looting falls under.

Yeah, that still isn't a good chart because it still skews it based on population by sticking to the populated areas. I would like a crimes per capita by county and see how that goes.

[Shadowferal]

So are you saying there is no looting going on? Or not at levels that concern you?

wtf are you talking about?

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He never said protests. But there seems to be waves of people gathering and then destroying property/looting. I've seen it a bunch in Phili,

Do tell? I live next door...enlighten me. Because I've not heard anything.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Noticing they are going for the "Crime in large cities" approach which is disingenuous when they should be going with a "Crime per capita" approach which actually looks at the crimes normalized against population size but that doesn't say what they want it to so they have to avoid it.

The funny thing is places like Walmart for example know full well and have spent millions on what is cost effective vs safe. For the same reason they’ll build self checkout to get around paying employees. They know exactly how to make their stores safer from shit like this.

Walmart could hire their own cops and security not simply loss preventions and Walmart would and could be one of the safest places where they are in some places.

The problem is for the company is corporations theft from their own employees.

Thus they aren’t going to make the stores safer when it’s cheaper to go with the formula they have.

The people being hurt are the innocent people who aren’t doing anything wrong. Grandma on a fix income. Poor people already struggling have to travel further away to simply buy food.

Personally I’ve said it before I’ll say it again rioting and looting are stupid. I care more about human beings than insured junk especially big corporations that’s insured.

It’s not right, but the worst actors aren’t the ones too ignorant to know any better. It’s the intelligent ones too stupid to give a fuck. Primarily the ones who won’t pay for any of it in the end.

It’s not Walmart or big corporations that are gonna lose anything.

[Kokolums]

On general principle, though, I hold to "if you see someone stealing from Wal-Mart or some other major corporation, no you didn't." Those corporations have their own loss-management measures and calculations; if they're not paying me, personally, to protect that, I have no opinion and I will not in any way give them any help or support in that endeavour. Get back to me when we've handled wage theft at that corporate level, because wage theft absolutely dwarfs all other forms of theft and it isn't even close; https://www.epi.org/publication/wage...theft-workers/

Regarding your comparison between wage theft and looting, are you saying that because you believe there is wage theft, that looting is ok and should not be punished? Or just some type of looting should not be punished? And what is the threshold where looting becomes a concern to you?

[diller]

i notice there is no thread on this. how does this forum feeling about the rise of looting in Americas cities in 2023? some feel this is why companies like wal mart or rite aid are closing stores. some blame ineffective democrat leadership in los angeles, chicago, etc for the looting.
do you support or oppose the rioting?

I guess you have a solution... maybe a civil war would fix it?

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As long as we have the 2nd amendment to protect ourselves. Doesn’t bother me. I also don’t live where people support defunding the police either.

Yes lets shoot people in the back if they take your stuff, seems quite reasonable /s