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  1. #1401
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonkaden View Post
    Nope. 10char.
    So Blizzard created and released a quest chain with “ NEW SPECIALIZATION REMEMBERED” that’s tied to a major storyline in 10.1, and allowed it to get massive media attention for no reason? That’s quite odd.

    Also this will be added to clues in the OP shortly, since I missed it on the first go around;

    P.S. Many players have noticed that Emberthal has a unique scale color that isn't currently possible on other Dracthyr. If a third Evoker spec is planned... maybe more Dracthyr colours will come down the line to match Emberthal's?
    https://www.wowhead.com/news/third-e...e-lines-332224

  2. #1402
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then what's the point of this back and forth?
    Because you keep wanting to move the goal posts.


    Incorrect. I simply said that the PTR is evidence that this COULD happen. Futher, the PTR quest chain isn't the only evidence we have.
    Yet every piece of evidence contrary to that possibility, you dismiss outright because it doesn't fit your agenda.

    [quit]Which doesn't mean that it's going to happen in this case.[/quote]

    Doesn't mean it's not going to happen too.

    1. Something I'm sure Blizzard is prepared for (if this is happening).
    When has Blizzard ever prepared for a shit storm?

    2. Not if the new spec is optional or initially banned from Mythic or M+Dungeons and used more as a testing ground for the rest of the current expansion.
    You're really grasping at straws here. Do you honestly think Blizzard is going to spend all this time and effort making this thing, trying to get it to work, and then

    3. Again, something Blizzard was well aware of when/if they decided to take this massive step.
    When have the never been aware something like this will introduce api-breaking changes? Their awareness of this fact is immaterial. The effect it has on the game is what matters. You seem to have trouble grasping this concept.

    Or they simply restructure group content retroactively and going forward to accomodate the new role by increasing the total number of players in a group. Again, all of this is something Blizzard would be aware of, planned for, and working towards if they decided to go this route.
    Except they've already stated they're not going to change Mythic group size. People want them to make it smaller. Mythic Raiding is locked at 20 people because this is a compromise number. Keep in mind prior to Wrath, You had to have 40 people in Vanilla and 25 in Burning Crusade to do the main raids sans Karazhan. Only the side raids like Zul'gurub and Zul'aman let you go in with 10. Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj was set at 20 but that made it easy to split your Temple of Ahn'Qiraj group in half and both run it.

    Then in Wrath they introduced the concept of split 10/25 main raid sizes because they misinterpreted data about Karazhan. This resulted in 4 different loot tables, with some overlap between Heroic 10 and Normal 25. It was like this until Patch 5.4 introduced the "Flex" raid difficulty that was between LFR and Normal. After testing of it was successful in Seige of Orgrimmar, they simply applied the technology to LFR, Normal, and Heroic, and created Mythic.

    Mythic answered the player base's desire for the Vanilla/BC raiding model to return. So they're not going to destroy it.

    Possibly. Whatever patch coincides with the new expansion announcement would be the most likely candidate.
    Assuming there IS a Patch announcement. Patch 10.1 hit the PTR without any announcement.

    Similar to what happened with Allied Races between Legion and BFA.
    Allied races have only been added once in the middle of an expansion, BfA. The Legion ones were added at the end of the expansion, not to mention pre-purchasing BfA was a requirement to access them even if you fulfilled the other requirements.

    As for the second reason comparing a brand new spec classification to Allied races is like comparing Apple the Computer to Apple the Fruit, @Ielenia already told you why that comparison is way off base.

    I could absolutely see a scenario where 10.1.7 is over, they announce 11.0 and they say that they're releasing a 4th role in the new expansion, and you can try out the new role at some point when you preorder 11.0 with the 3rd Evoker spec.
    You're changing your position again. You keep saying that it's going to come in Patch 10.2. Now you're asserting my position that it's going to be 11.0 at the the earliest.

    No, 10.1.7 will be the end of the tier. Just like 10.0.7 has been the end of the current raiding season.
    Ummm... sorry to tell you this but Season 1 is still running. Yet 10.0.7 is live. Season 1 ends on May 2nd when servers go down for Patch 10.1 to be deployed. Just as Season 2 will end when severs go down for Patch 10.2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I did. Read my previous comment about how the context is the same unless you are intentionally undermining your argument as being pointless.
    No, you didn't. Because I never used the word never. I guess I have to give you the same English lesson I gave earlier. "Not" is a negation. It negates the verb it is attached to. Like "Sam is not running." This is NOT synonymous with "Sam never runs." "Never" is an absolute that means "at no time ever." Not to mention "never" can also be qualified like "Sam never runs when there's a thunderstorm."

    You will also note that I have stated numerous reasons why they won't do it except maybe a tiny outro patch after the capital boss of the expansion is taken care of. But, again, Blizzard has only done that once after we killed Arthas with Patch 3.4 - The Ruby Sanctum. Go back and reread them.

  3. #1403
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    This is completely your opinion,
    No. What I said about your comparison to "monks got new race options and it didn't show on the roadmap" are actual facts. Those two aren't comparable.

    Again, up until Dragonflight, classes getting new racial options was always something that only happened when new expansions launched. After 10.0.7 that is no longer the case.
    And classes getting new race options from races that already existed in the game are not comparable to a class gaining a whole brand new spec that did not exist in the game.

    What reasons am I constantly ignoring?
    If you really feel you have to ask that, then this is proof you haven't been reading what I've been writing considering I've repeated those reasons three times already.

    Again, if this is happening,
    It's not happening, for the reasons I've already stated.

    So saying that this won't happen because it's never been done before, or that Blizzard is incapable of adding whatever they want to a video game that they have complete control over is simply not a good argument.
    Thank goodness that wasn't my argument, eh?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Why is that even an issue? They could still add that in a major content patch like 10.2 or 10.3, not just at the beginning of expansions.

    Even Allied Races were released in waves and incorporated gameplay that affected the meta, usually in major content patches.
    I've already answered that: the addition of a brand new spec requires way more changes to the API than a race does.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #1404
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    No, you didn't. Because I never used the word never. I guess I have to give you the same English lesson I gave earlier. "Not" is a negation. It negates the verb it is attached to. Like "Sam is not running." This is NOT synonymous with "Sam never runs." "Never" is an absolute that means "at no time ever." Not to mention "never" can also be qualified like "Sam never runs when there's a thunderstorm."
    And "Sam does not run when there's a thunderstorm" would be synonymous to that same statement using 'never'.

    The context of applying 'Not' to a present and future tense makes it synonymous to 'Not ever'.

    It's semantics, because you are addressing what does not happen in the middle of an expansion in a present and future tense, and that is the same context as saying it would not ever happen in the middle of an expansion.

    You don't need to use the exact word to imply the same context.

    If you want to use proper english, then you should have been referring to the precedent of them not having done such things in a past tense, rather than addressing it in present tense.

    You will also note that I have stated numerous reasons why they won't do it except maybe a tiny outro patch after the capital boss of the expansion is taken care of. But, again, Blizzard has only done that once after we killed Arthas with Patch 3.4 - The Ruby Sanctum. Go back and reread them.
    Then your original statements about them not doing it mid expansion are pointless, since you can't confirm that they wouldn't in any way.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-04-24 at 09:51 PM.

  5. #1405
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Because you keep wanting to move the goal posts.
    Where have I done that?


    Yet every piece of evidence contrary to that possibility, you dismiss outright because it doesn't fit your agenda.
    Uh what evidence to the contrary? Using the argument that they won’t do it, or have never done it before, isn’t evidence.

    Doesn't mean it's not going to happen too.
    Sure, but we have evidence that it’s going to happen.

    When has Blizzard ever prepared for a shit storm?
    This is a straw man. This argument only works if WoW is some unbalanced mess. That isn’t the case. Thus, if Blizzard is adding a third spec, they would anticipate whatever change would occur in the meta and appropriately adjust to it.

    You're really grasping at straws here. Do you honestly think Blizzard is going to spend all this time and effort making this thing, trying to get it to work, and then
    Then what?

    When have the never been aware something like this will introduce api-breaking changes? Their awareness of this fact is immaterial. The effect it has on the game is what matters. You seem to have trouble grasping this concept.
    So what is your argument here? That a third spec for Evokers would somehow unravel the game? That’s nonsense. Even a support spec, while difficult to implement, is still perfectly doable considering the experience of the dev team.


    Except they've already stated they're not going to change Mythic group size.
    Where? Even if that’s the case, mythic ‘s group composition can be rearranged in a wide array of possible configurations.

    Assuming there IS a Patch announcement. Patch 10.1 hit the PTR without any announcement.
    The roadmap makes it clear that 10.1.7 is releasing in the fall. BlizzCon 2023 is also likely to be announced in that frame of time.


    Allied races have only been added once in the middle of an expansion, BfA. The Legion ones were added at the end of the expansion, not to mention pre-purchasing BfA was a requirement to access them even if you fulfilled the other requirements.
    Allied races for Legion came out in January 2018. If the Evoker third spec drops after 10.1.7 (10.2) that would be an equivalent time frame.

    As for the second reason comparing a brand new spec classification to Allied races is like comparing Apple the Computer to Apple the Fruit, @Ielenia already told you why that comparison is way off base.
    Where did I say they’re the same thing? I’m simply using Allied races as a comparison point since it was ab expansion feature that was previewed in the previous expansion. Just like the Monk class expansion is an example of a feature that was previously only done for new expansions being a feature that can occur at any point in an expansion.


    You're changing your position again. You keep saying that it's going to come in Patch 10.2. Now you're asserting my position that it's going to be 11.0 at the the earliest.
    You misread. I’m saying that they announce support role as a new feature in 11.0, and the Evoker 3rd spec is the first one that comes out in 10.1.7 or similar.

    Ummm... sorry to tell you this but Season 1 is still running. Yet 10.0.7 is live. Season 1 ends on May 2nd when servers go down for Patch 10.1 to be deployed. Just as Season 2 will end when severs go down for Patch 10.2.
    What I’m saying is that this raid tier is done, and has been done for some time. 10.0 was when this raid was active, now it’s on farm. By 10.1.7 Aberrus will be in a similar state, which gives an opening for a new spec to enter the game and not effect progression raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. What I said about your comparison to "monks got new race options and it didn't show on the roadmap" are actual facts. Those two aren't comparable.
    Uh, but the Monk expansion wasn’t listed on the 10.0 roadmap.

    And classes getting new race options from races that already existed in the game are not comparable to a class gaining a whole brand new spec that did not exist in the game.
    I never said it was.

    If you really feel you have to ask that, then this is proof you haven't been reading what I've been writing considering I've repeated those reasons three times already.
    So no examples? Cant say I’m surprised.

    It's not happening, for the reasons I've already stated.
    Again, saying that “Blizzard has never done it before” isn’t a valid argument.

  6. #1406
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, but the Monk expansion wasn’t listed on the 10.0 roadmap.
    Again: irrelevant, for the reasons I've mentioned several times already that you keep ignoring.

    I never said it was.
    Backpedaling now? You literally did say it was when you said "monks getting new race options wasn't on the roadmap".

    So no examples? Cant say I’m surprised.
    Examples? Dude, stop being dishonest. You didn't ask for "examples". You asked for the reasons you keep ignoring, which I've already repeated several times. Just look at any of my last responses to you.

    Again, saying that “Blizzard has never done it before” isn’t a valid argument.
    Again: that was never my argument. This is just you arguing against a strawman you created. This is so god damn dishonest, considering I've already explained this to you in my previous response, which you did not address.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #1407
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again: irrelevant, for the reasons I've mentioned several times already that you keep ignoring.
    I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here. However, the purpose of bringing up the Monk class expansion is that it is an example of a major item not mentioned at all in the 10.0 roadmap. So (again) it stands to reason that there will be things coming in season 2 that aren’t on the roadmap.


    Backpedaling now? You literally did say it was when you said "monks getting new race options wasn't on the roadmap".
    See above.

    Examples? Dude, stop being dishonest. You didn't ask for "examples". You asked for the reasons you keep ignoring, which I've already repeated several times. Just look at any of my last responses to you.
    No examples presented #2.

    Again: that was never my argument. This is just you arguing against a strawman you created. This is so god damn dishonest, considering I've already explained this to you in my previous response, which you did not address.
    But that’s exactly what you’re arguing. You have yet to come up with any evidence to the contrary outside of it simply never happening before. Again, if you disagree post your examples.

  8. #1408
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here.
    Not surprising considering you have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't read what people write in response to you when they don't agree with your assertions.

    However, the purpose of bringing up the Monk class expansion is that it is an example of a major item
    It's not a "major item", and I've already explained why several times.

    No examples presented #2.
    Examples were presented. Several times. You just constantly ignore them and then dishonestly claim none were provided.

    But that’s exactly what you’re arguing.
    As I said at the top of this post: this is not surprising considering you have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't read what people write in response to you when they don't agree with your assertions.

    You have yet to come up with any evidence to the contrary outside of it simply never happening before. Again, if you disagree post your examples.
    As I've said already; examples were presented. Several times. You just constantly ignore them and then dishonestly claim none were provided.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #1409
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a "major item", and I've already explained why several times.
    And you’re welcome to that opinion, but the point still stands.

    The point;the Monk class expansion is ann example of a major item not mentioned at all in the 10.0 roadmap. So (again) it stands to reason that there will be things coming in season 2 that aren’t currently on the season 2 roadmap.

    Since you refuse to present any counter examples or arguments, there’s really nothing else to talk about here.

  10. #1410
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    This thread has turned into OP getting completely destroyed by several people again and again, yet he keeps going. What a champ. What a thread.

    I wouldn't mind if Evoker got a 3rd spec, preferably a tank one. Means I can do more stuff. But I feel like it was supposed to be there at release, but was pushed back because of obvious reasons. Which is a bit lame.

    But it coming in 10.1? No. Can't see that happening. Introducing the lore for it sure, but probably won't see anything until 10.2 or maybe 10.1.5.
    Hi

  11. #1411
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    This thread has turned into OP getting completely destroyed by several people again and again, yet he keeps going. What a champ. What a thread.

    I wouldn't mind if Evoker got a 3rd spec, preferably a tank one. Means I can do more stuff. But I feel like it was supposed to be there at release, but was pushed back because of obvious reasons. Which is a bit lame.

    But it coming in 10.1? No. Can't see that happening. Introducing the lore for it sure, but probably won't see anything until 10.2 or maybe 10.1.5.

    Yes, people sure are idiots, and i don't mean OP.

  12. #1412
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And you’re welcome to that opinion, but the point still stands.
    It doesn't stand because it's built on a faulty premise.

    The point;the Monk class expansion is ann example of a major item
    Again, it's not a "major item". It's fairly minor because it doesn't impact the game in any significant way: no meta changes, no big API changes necessary.

    not mentioned at all in the 10.0 roadmap.
    Because it's a minor item.

    So (again) it stands to reason
    ("Reason". That's a laugh.) No, it doesn't. Like I said, your entire point is built around a faulty premise that doesn't stand up to real scrutiny.

    Since you refuse to present any counter examples or arguments
    I have presented them, several times. You just constantly ignored them. Just look at my previous posts to you.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #1413
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    This thread has turned into OP getting completely destroyed by several people again and again, yet he keeps going. What a champ. What a thread.
    ---
    But it coming in 10.1? No. Can't see that happening. Introducing the lore for it sure, but probably won't see anything until 10.2 or maybe 10.1.5.
    If you actually followed the thread you'd know the conversation has moved well past 10.1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I've already answered that: the addition of a brand new spec requires way more changes to the API than a race does.
    So?

    You realize that part of the datamines found plenty of new unknown spell slots, some suggested to be for Evoker right?

    https://gamestoday.info/pc/world-of-...findings-pt-2/

    The real meat though – SpellEmpowerStage had 36 new entries in it. This table currently has 111 entries in total, with all the previously known spells linking to empowered Evoker abilities, with the exception of one ability that empowers a users jump and is related to another quest line.

    'It takes a lot of work' is nothing more than an excuse, because we don't k ow what Blizzard is actually planning and when they would release this kind of content.

    We could consider the possibility that they had a 3rd spec made but didn't have time to properly balance and polish, which is why it is currently absent from the game. All they have to do is update the current build to the one they have in development with 3 full specs.

    What you are calling a brand new spec would be brand new to players, but not to the devs. It wouldn't be much different than activating a new race or customization options, assuming the content was already ready and simply waiting to be added into the live build.

    It would only be a lot of work if you assumed they only started work in a spec after the game already launched and well into release, which isn't likely the case here. There is a LOT of indicators pointing at this being planned ahead of time.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-04-25 at 01:30 AM.

  14. #1414
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It doesn't stand because it's built on a faulty premise.
    So is your argument that everything we’re getting in the next 6-8 months is listed in this roadmap/timeline;



    Seriously?

  15. #1415
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    I love how my anti-virus goes ballistic the moment I click on that link. Also, some of the example tooltips from reddit (such as this one) are weird looking. None of the current evoker abilities refer to the player in a third person form. It's always "you" or "your", and the only time we see someone being referred in third person is either because it's a spell/ability that affects the class' pet, or it's an "extra action button" ability that controls a temporary companion.

    'It takes a lot of work' is nothing more than an excuse,
    "It's too much work" is not my argument either. Which you would know if you cared to understand what I'm writing here.

    What you are calling a brand new spec would be brand new to players, but not to the devs.
    Which isn't my argument. I'm not saying making a brand new spec is something new to the developers. I'm saying that huge API changes (such as the addition of a new spec) are relegated to new expansion pre-patches, and mid-expansion changes are minimal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So is your argument that everything we’re getting in the next 6-8 months is listed in this roadmap/timeline;

    https://www.videogameschronicle.com/...23-roadmap.jpg

    Seriously?
    Once again, Teriz showing more evidence that he doesn't care to understand the opposition's arguments at all, and instead just creates more strawmen.

    I literally never claimed what you're dishonestly asserting I've claimed.

    I have simply pointed out that you equating the monk class gaining more race options is nowhere near on the same level of importance and impact as a brand new spec.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #1416
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which isn't my argument. I'm not saying making a brand new spec is something new to the developers. I'm saying that huge API changes (such as the addition of a new spec) are relegated to new expansion pre-patches, and mid-expansion changes are minimal.
    That's assuming they haven't planned it and are putting new work into implementation, rather than having it all worked out in an internal build and simply waiting to flag it into live. Considering 'New Specialization Remembered' was found, it suggests content planned for this expansion over anything that comes with the next expansion. Cuz it makes no sense why 11.0 content would be datamined during DF at this point in time. Even if they are working on 11.0 New expansion content behind the scenes, it wouldn't be through the 10.X content PTR.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-04-25 at 02:07 AM.

  17. #1417
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I wouldn't mind if Evoker got a 3rd spec, preferably a tank one. Means I can do more stuff. But I feel like it was supposed to be there at release, but was pushed back because of obvious reasons. Which is a bit lame.
    I'm beginning to doubt it's a tank, due to Blizzard's dismissal of the role for Evokers, and the Neltharion voice lines.

    It seems quite obvious that this is a support spec of some type, and I'm starting to believe it's a full-on support role like Bards/Dancers in other MMOs. It explains why Blizzard would delay the spec, and it explains why people are debating the specs role despite it being explained twice.

  18. #1418
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's assuming they haven't planned it and are putting new work into implementation, rather than having it all worked out in an internal build and simply waiting to flag it into live. Considering 'New Specialization Remembered' was found, it suggests content planned for this expansion over anything that comes with the next expansion. Cuz it makes no sense why 11.0 content would be datamined during DF at this point in time. Even if they are working on 11.0 New expansion content behind the scenes, it wouldn't be through the 10.X content PTR.
    If that is the case, people who datamine stuff would have found out that the evoker class would have three entries on the API (one for each spec) but only have two specs in the game.

    On top of that, since Teriz decided to bring up the roadmap, a brand new spec added to the game is a big thing, worthy of being in said map, but nothing of the sort exists there, not even as a vague sentence that could be construed as 'new spec'.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #1419
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    On top of that, since Teriz decided to bring up the roadmap, a brand new spec added to the game is a big thing, worthy of being in said map, but nothing of the sort exists there, not even as a vague sentence that could be construed as 'new spec'.
    More than likely because Blizzard doesn't want us to know it exists yet. Instead they're dropping stuff in the PTR. It's called generating hype, and it's a marketing ploy that Blizzard loves to use.

  20. #1420
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    More than likely because Blizzard doesn't want us to know it exists yet. Instead they're dropping stuff in the PTR. It's called generating hype, and it's a marketing ploy that Blizzard loves to use.
    "Blizzard doesn't want us to know it exists. But Blizzard definitely wants us to know it exists".

    Love that argument.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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