[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Fuiking]

Delusional or lying? I can't quite make my mind up!

both /10 characters

[dribbles]

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...%80%93present) only about 48% are currently in favor of rejoining.

However, the support for staying out is only 33% as a significant portion says that they don't know. The shift happened in 2021 - when rejoiners went ahead of "staying outers". Whether the gap will widen even further is unknown, but based on how it's going I would say it is likely.

Thank you, I hadn't seen that link, quite comforting. So in the history of 92 polls since we left the EU only 9 breach the 50% threshold in favour of re-joining the EU. If Brexit were the disaster some quite falsely say it is, surely every poll would by huge margin be in favour of re-join?

I note the trend upwards which you mention is likely to widen further but disagree as to its effectiveness or that this will happen. Since Brexit the re-join campaign has been in full swing with constant attempts to bash Brexit for often quite unrelated reasons. Meanwhile, as we have now left the EU, the Brexit campaign is non existent so this polling trend towards re-join is unsurprising given that there is no counter argument being delivered..

However if there were to be any really serious threat to a reversal of Brexit, the currently sleeping "stay out of the EU" campaign would swing into action and with the superior arguments in favour of not re-joining, which won the day for Brexit at the time of the original referendum, would win that debate yet again.

Nope no cause for alarm eurochums, from those polls we are not coming back in anytime soon. In fact I'd say likely never.

[Edge-]

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-w...brexit-hiatus/

After two years frozen out of European science projects, Britain wants back in — at a bargain price. Brussels is unimpressed.

EU and U.K. officials are immersed in talks on Britain’s long-delayed re-association with the bloc’s science programs, including the massive €95.5 billion Horizon Europe funding program; the Copernicus Earth observation satellite system; and Euratom’s nuclear energy R&D scheme.

Britain formally left the schemes when it quit the EU in January 2020, and negotiations to re-associate as a third country stalled amid the bitter row over post-Brexit trade rules in Northern Ireland.

Talks finally restarted last month after London and Brussels struck the Windsor Framework deal, with expectations high of a swift resolution. The European Commission confirmed it would not require the U.K. to pay backdated participation fees for the two years it had missed of the current seven-year Horizon Europe funding initiative.

But the U.K. government wants a bigger discount. London argues the two-year hiatus has left British-based researchers and businesses in a weakened position compared with their peers across Europe.

Their absence from the first years of the scheme has prevented U.K.-based scientists from leading multi-country research consortia, they say — an area where historically they have excelled. The overall number of U.K. applications has also declined due to the ongoing uncertainty.

London insists the post-Brexit discount should therefore be greater than simply two years’ worth of annual contributions. U.K. civil servants have produced modelling to estimate how much U.K.-based scientists are likely to win back in grant funding in the final five years of the scheme, and want a further rebate to help fill the gap.

As negotiations continue, U.K. ministers are even threatening to abandon association with Horizon altogether and push ahead with the domestic "Plan B" drawn up last year, known in Whitehall as Pioneer.

“Association needs to be on the basis of a good deal for the U.K.,” Paul Scully, the U.K. minister for tech and digital economy, told a Westminster Hall debate last week. “Our discussions will need to reflect the lasting impact of two years of delays to the U.K.’s association. … Researchers and businesses have missed out on over two years of a seven-year program.”

Rofl, what does the EU have to say about this pathetic begging?

An EU official said the U.K. has not yet put forward a formal position to the Commission, but added: “We are not going to treat them in a different way to the other third countries. The conditions for association are set out in the [EU-U.K. Trade and Cooperation Agreement] TCA. We are willing not to ask them to pay for the two first years of the program, but nothing else.”

A senior diplomat representing a powerful EU country echoed this message. “They [Britain] really need to make up their mind,” the diplomat told POLITICO. “What we don’t accept is any kind of rebate for the United Kingdom, this Margaret Thatcher-style thinking of ‘we want our money back.’ Either they accept it as it is, or they don’t.”

Boy, you sure do lose a lot of special perks and privileges when you leave a group and become an outsider. If only there were people warning about this very consequence.

[LeGin v3]

If Brexit were the disaster some quite falsely say it is, surely every poll would by huge margin be in favour of re-join?

No, because Russia's propaganda has been very effective, hasn't it?

That's the whole point. You lot, including your Kremlin overseers, won. Enjoy the carnage you've created.

[Kallisto]

No, because Russia's propaganda has been very effective, hasn't it?

That's the whole point. You lot, including your Kremlin overseers, won. Enjoy the carnage you've created.

People seem to not realise just how easy it is to fall for propaganda and also into Fascism itself. The Kremlin is good at it, especially during times when things are shitty. There's been studies, even school teachers doing experiments to show that a society can fall and follow into fascism within weeks if the message is clear (even if it is a lie), pushed the right way and repeated often enough.

[Mazza]

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-w...brexit-hiatus/



Rofl, what does the EU have to say about this pathetic begging?



Boy, you sure do lose a lot of special perks and privileges when you leave a group and become an outsider. If only there were people warning about this very consequence.

Just part of the find out part. Ya know, from fuck around and find out.

[LeGin v3]

People seem to not realise just how easy it is to fall for propaganda and also into Fascism itself. The Kremlin is good at it, especially during times when things are shitty. There's been studies, even school teachers doing experiments to show that a society can fall and follow into fascism within weeks if the message is clear (even if it is a lie), pushed the right way and repeated often enough.

This is a good article:

https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com...ern-democracy/

Both the strength and weakness of Western democracy lie in its core value: ‘freedom.’

I've got no idea what Dribbles' true motivations are (I enjoy a bit of hyperbole after a G&T) but it's a fact that Russian disinformation campaigns are systematic, well-resourced and perpetrated on a huge scale. The EC recognises this but the UK government doesn't. What does that tell you? Corrupt Tory fuckers (but not necessarily corrupt because of their political alignment, e.g., looking at you George Galloway) in the pay of the Russians need to be run out of the country. Fuck Arron Banks.

The Internet Research Agency is real, fake media accounts are real, Russian disinformation is real.

Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster, as we all predicted. Dribbles' 2+2=5, simply gives more weight to the argument that he's a genuine troll. And I say this from an initial position of mild Euroscepticism. The irony is that now, given a choice: fuck concerns about fiscal union, it's clear we are incapable of governing ourselves, bring on Brussels. I voted remain but I regret not having actively campaigned for it. There you go.

A couple of years ago, roundabout the time Flairelaine became a mod, Dribbles confessed to being an alt. Can't find the post now, but it's either somewhere or has been deleted. Dribbles is either: a) sea-lioning and wasting everyone's time or b) he's a bonafide Russian troll active on the forums under another name. Take your pick. The sex tourism thing... literally, I have no idea.

[dribbles]

This is a good article:

https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com...ern-democracy/

Both the strength and weakness of Western democracy lie in its core value: ‘freedom.’

I've got no idea what Dribbles' true motivations are (I enjoy a bit of hyperbole after a G&T) but it's a fact that Russian disinformation campaigns are systematic, well-resourced and perpetrated on a huge scale. The EC recognises this but the UK government doesn't. What does that tell you? Corrupt Tory fuckers (but not necessarily corrupt because of their political alignment, e.g., looking at you George Galloway) in the pay of the Russians need to be run out of the country. Fuck Arron Banks.

The Internet Research Agency is real, fake media accounts are real, Russian disinformation is real.

Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster, as we all predicted. Dribbles' 2+2=5, simply gives more weight to the argument that he's a genuine troll. And I say this from an initial position of mild Euroscepticism. The irony is that now, given a choice: fuck concerns about fiscal union, it's clear we are incapable of governing ourselves, bring on Brussels. I voted remain but I regret not having actively campaigned for it. There you go.

A couple of years ago, roundabout the time Flairelaine became a mod, Dribbles confessed to being an alt. Can't find the post now, but it's either somewhere or has been deleted. Dribbles is either: a) sea-lioning and wasting everyone's time or b) he's a bonafide Russian troll active on the forums under another name. Take your pick. The sex tourism thing... literally, I have no idea.

Could it not just be as simple as that I support Brexit and wish to convey on an international forum the accurate opinions of the majority of British people?

In case its been missed amongst the noise we can sum up all of this topic from the beginning until now as thus...

There was a referendum 2016 - Brexiteers won that
There was a General Election 2017 - Brexiteers won that
There were MEP EU elections 2019 - Brexiteers won that (in the UK)
another General Election 2019 - Brexiteers won that

On every occasion in a demonstration of democracy when tested Brexit won. It would again. Why?

Because it is what the British people want. It really is that easy to understand.

[Edge-]

Could it not just be as simple as that I support Brexit and wish to convey on an international forum the accurate opinions of the majority of British people?

I mean, there's like 3 lies in this sentence alone.

Because it is what the British people want. It really is that easy to understand.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-opinion-poll/

Since 2020, Brexit has only seen plurality popularity in two polls. It has both plurality and majority unpopularity in the rest.

That you continue to offer up such trivially debunked lies goes back to my first point.

[Fuiking]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now? Mostly for personal reasons?

Its all fine that the EU wants to deal with climate change, and want to increase taxes to force/introduce new innovations in a more sustainable future..

But sadly those measures will add to the already high ambitions of the dutch government. (They kinda got chuckblocked by Extinction Rebellion a while ago.. And had to change there ambitions with PAS.. locking up the country, raising taxes, and making new taxes just to cover expenses.. it would have been acceptable if the stronger shoulders would carry some more weight, but ofcourse not. On the weaker shoulders it goes)

And we all know how the dutch government deals with that.. Increase taxes and make new taxes.. (suikertaks, meat tax, yay?).. and oh yeah budget cuts on healthcare, the elderly and handicapped, because why the hell not? Also a forced change into EV's (EV's are stupid expensive atm, and not for the regular factory worker.. it worked if Public Transportation wasnt such a mess, but it is) .

And with the EU's plans it will add on the plebians (including me, I sadly enough belong to the lower parts of society) already increasing money problems.. creating a downward and vicious spiral into a poverty, lack of proper healthcare (and thus they become more expensive in the long run).

So yeah im kinda panicking and hating the EU right now.

[diller]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now? Mostly for personal reasons?

Its all fine that the EU wants to deal with climate change, and want to increase taxes

Since when does the EU collect taxes?

[LeGin v3]

/bangs head against brick wall

[Elegiac]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now?

No, it isn't. Get help.

[Edge-]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now? Mostly for personal reasons?

Because Brexit has been going so...well?

I mean, you can always just move to the UK if you think that being outside the EU is a grand idea?

[Milchshake]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now? Mostly for personal reasons?

Nope, it's just you and Rochana.

[zealo]

Since when does the EU collect taxes?

It doesn't. Not in that sense anyway, it's funded through the member states paying for it all but the EU isn't a fiscal union yet, it doesn't directly tax anyone.

[Fuiking]

It doesn't. Not in that sense anyway, it's funded through the member states paying for it all but the EU isn't a fiscal union yet, it doesn't directly tax anyone.

The funding can be.. technically seen as a sort of tax, though. Seeing it takes a percentage of gdp. I might be wrong, if so, feel free to correct me.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, it's just you and Rochana.

In all honesty this is the first time, I think a NEXIT *might* be a good thing. (note the might?). But thats from personal reasons. Increasing costs in the Netherlands + the costs being dropped on the citizenry in the EU, with EU's climate plans will send me in a viscious cycle of poverty, even worse health, more stress.. Things I can't afford basically. I might have read the article wrong, but it does say the citizens will be paying for that.. Not the big companies, no the citizens. Me. I'm already struggling with my surviving, now this comes on top of it?

You can say im very egostical about a possible newly discovered love for a NEXIT. (which will be a economic suicide, in come to think off, will send me in a more viscious cycle of destruction).

Someone could have told me, not to be, you know, egostical, and see it from a collective viewpoint. But noooo ... I had to discover it myself. But reading through ya all comments on my ''OH NO NOT AGAIN! WHY ME! STOP BULLYING ME EU/NETHERLANDS'' post, made me realize, a NEXIT would fix nothing, but even might make it worse.

Thanks for helping me I geuss :hug:

[Veggie50]

Is it normal that I want to see a NEXIT now? Mostly for personal reasons?

Its all fine that the EU wants to deal with climate change, and want to increase taxes to force/introduce new innovations in a more sustainable future..

But sadly those measures will add to the already high ambitions of the dutch government. (They kinda got chuckblocked by Extinction Rebellion a while ago.. And had to change there ambitions with PAS.. locking up the country, raising taxes, and making new taxes just to cover expenses.. it would have been acceptable if the stronger shoulders would carry some more weight, but ofcourse not. On the weaker shoulders it goes)

And we all know how the dutch government deals with that.. Increase taxes and make new taxes.. (suikertaks, meat tax, yay?).. and oh yeah budget cuts on healthcare, the elderly and handicapped, because why the hell not? Also a forced change into EV's (EV's are stupid expensive atm, and not for the regular factory worker.. it worked if Public Transportation wasnt such a mess, but it is) .

And with the EU's plans it will add on the plebians (including me, I sadly enough belong to the lower parts of society) already increasing money problems.. creating a downward and vicious spiral into a poverty, lack of proper healthcare (and thus they become more expensive in the long run).

So yeah im kinda panicking and hating the EU right now.

Hi fellow Dutchie, its ok, no need to panic.

The past few years have been rough on everyone. First Covid, followed by high inflation. It makes sense to seek a scapegoat. I personally prefer people turning to the EU for that, instead of the more classical “minorities”.

Some political parties actually campaign on this concept of an outside malevolent force. We call those populists. They actively feed your fear and set you against some unseeable evil. The most important thing to realise is that they do this so you won’t blame them.

The truth is we introduced a LOT of the EU legislation you’re fed up with. And thats because its actually good legislation. The EU just keeps us adhering to our own good intentions when things get tougher.

Look at the EU like the personal trainer you hired to lose weight. You NEED to lose weight. You made a conscious decision to lose weight. You also know you won’t always have the fortitude to keep going, so you hired the trainer to kick you in the ass when you have a motivation dip.

[dribbles]

The funding can be.. technically seen as a sort of tax, though. Seeing it takes a percentage of gdp. I might be wrong, if so, feel free to correct me.

The Dutch send 200 million Euro a week to the EU.

https://english.rekenkamer.nl/public...C%20%C2%A73.4.

I mean we have a bus going spare you could borrow...

[Fuiking]

Hi fellow Dutchie, its ok, no need to panic.

The past few years have been rough on everyone. First Covid, followed by high inflation. It makes sense to seek a scapegoat. I personally prefer people turning to the EU for that, instead of the more classical “minorities”.

Some political parties actually campaign on this concept of an outside malevolent force. We call those populists. They actively feed your fear and set you against some unseeable evil. The most important thing to realise is that they do this so you won’t blame them.

The truth is we introduced a LOT of the EU legislation you’re fed up with. And thats because its actually good legislation. The EU just keeps us adhering to our own good intentions when things get tougher.

Look at the EU like the personal trainer you hired to lose weight. You NEED to lose weight. You made a conscious decision to lose weight. You also know you won’t always have the fortitude to keep going, so you hired the trainer to kick you in the ass when you have a motivation dip.

Haha I like that description I will try to remember that :hug: