WoW is doing just fine?

[Utrrabbit]

didnt blizz say DF sales were the worst sales of any expansion? maybe it got better once people heard DF is pretty good,but 8.5? yeah no way,this isnt 2010 anymore,there are so many other games out there,and very good ones,the competition for peoples time is just to much these days,theres good mmos,singleplayers,shooters,mobas,etc etc,id be surprised if wow has 1m subs,witch is just fine

No it just did not do aswell as SL which was the best xpac. Its sales were around wod number in sales

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Mmo population uses raider.io

MMO population uses reddit and then some bunk equation with total sales which isn't public.

its all made up.

[HansOlo]

OP. Tell me you don't understand how sources work, without telling me you don't understand sources.

The site you linked to, is an extremely shady site purporting information as fact, then in small print, says their sources are two other shady looking sites, that are also purporting their information as fact. Then you have to get into the fine print to see, that it's all speculation and guesswork. Not facts.

With that said, we can gleam enough from Activision quarterly reports (actual facts by law), that WoW isn't dead, and is nowhere near dying. Next time OP, link to the quarterly report and build a fact based discussion around that.



Also, this.

How about you link to something you find legit - so that I can read?

Quarterly reports requires the reader to have comprehensive knowledge of vision, marketing and strategy. You are also supposed understand numbers. But this doesn't adress the point of this thread anyway.

I assume you, I or any average MMO-C member, can't produce further factual conclussion than this article(or any other standard article) - by reading quartly reports. It all ends up in subjective point of view and speculations.

It's easy to sit and spew arrogant nonsense.

[Garretdejiko]

How about you link to something you find legit - so that I can read?

Quarterly reports requires the reader to have comprehensive knowledge of vision, marketing and strategy. You are also supposed understand numbers. But this doesn't adress the point of this thread anyway.

I assume you, I or any average MMO-C member, can't produce further factual conclussion than this article(or any other standard article) - by reading quartly reports. It all ends up in subjective point of view.

It's easy to sit and spew arrogant nonsense.

There are no "legit" sources, cause Blizzard isn't releasing the numbers for obvious reasons. They have been breaking the ways people could gauge the player count.
At best you can make an estimate. Use this site, which is more reliable than mmopop, which isn't high praise. https://www.wowrealmpopulation.com/

WowRealmPopulation statistics
EU characters in database: 5 085 536 of which 1 296 051 is currently considered being active within 2 week period.
EU guilds in database: 23 678 that have at least 10 members that are considered active within 2 week period.

US characters in database: 2 798 863 of which 801 136 is currently considered being active within 2 week period.
US guilds in database: 12 768 that have at least 10 members that are considered active within 2 week period.

Korean characters in database: 1 188 644 of which 40 176 is currently considered being active within 2 week period.
Korean guilds in database: 1 569 that have at least 5 members that are considered active within 2 week period.

Taiwanese characters in database: 1 268 852 of which 151 980 is currently considered being active within 2 week period.
Taiwanese guilds in database: 2 540 that have at least 5 members that are considered active within 2 week period.

[HansOlo]

There are no "legit" sources, cause Blizzard isn't releasing the numbers for obvious reasons. They have been breaking the ways people could gauge the player count.
At best you can make an estimate. Use this site, which is more reliable than mmopop, which isn't high praise. https://www.wowrealmpopulation.com/

Nobody is claiming facts(including the article - they just done the guesswork for me). But it's refreshing to read something in more a positive light - in contrast to bashing and doomsday predicitions.

[Biomega]

And I don't know your stance. But because I'm defensive - I will assume that you are one the haters.

And that's at the core of the problem: people going form "I don't know" to "I will assume".

If you don't know, just admit as much.

I don't know. I'm happy to say I don't know. I can only say "I don't like X" - my own personal preference about specific things that affect me. Anything beyond that is, for the most part, guesswork. Because the only ones with ACTUAL data are Blizzard.

But people are very reluctant to just say they don't know, just like you. You could just ASK, in this case; but that's not what you're doing. You immediately go to an assumption that jives with your position.

That's how these kinds of articles happen.

[Relapses]

How about you link to something you find legit - so that I can read?

Quarterly reports requires the reader to have comprehensive knowledge of vision, marketing and strategy. You are also supposed understand numbers. But this doesn't adress the point of this thread anyway.

I assume you, I or any average MMO-C member, can't produce further factual conclussion than this article(or any other standard article) - by reading quartly reports. It all ends up in subjective point of view.

It's easy to sit and spew arrogant nonsense.

The counter-argument for made up numbers isn't even more made up numbers.

Nobody knows. And even if we did know, people would massively misinterpret the data anyway. We know this because from the times that Blizzard did release subscriber numbers, players would frequently look at the quarterly losses and immediately associate all losses with a certain gameplay feature being added. ie, "500k subs left during the first quarter of Cataclysm. This is because Blizzard made Heroic dungeons too hard." This is obviously a wild misinterpretation because it assumes that people quit WoW for the same reasons and it also operates under the extremely misguided presumption that WoW never gains any new subscribers. People love to make these kind of arguments because they appeal to our emotions: "Yeah, dungeons were too difficult so it makes sense that everybody left for that reason!"

Sadly, reality is a lot more boring. Even if we did know how many people were playing, we still wouldn't know the actual churn rate of subscribers since Blizzard has never made this information public. Churn rate is the number of new subscribers versus the number of subscribers lost. To explore this we'll need to delve a bit further into imaginary number territory but instead of supporting an argument, it's to illustrate that arguing about it in the first place is kinda dumb. The biggest issue I have is that a subscriber model can see growth quarter-over-quarter even if the retention is worse because there are more new players than the number of players leaving. Let's say we start the quarter with 5 million subscribers. If 6 million subscribers quit but 7 million subscribers join you would see growth on the subscriber chart. Inversely, you can losses even when retention rates are better for similar reasons. Using the same example from before, if we start a quarter with 5 million subscribers, lose 3 million but only gain 1.5 million new subscribers, the retention rate improved by 100% but since the number of total subscribers at the end of the quarter is 3.5 million, it'd interpret this as a loss on the subscriber chart.

tl,dr -- Stop giving a shit about how many subscribers WoW has.

[arkanon]

No they said they didn't reach shadowlands number which was the highest of any expan ever.

Find me ONE SINGLE QUOTE where Blizzard claim SL was the HIGHEST selling expansion ever.

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody is claiming facts(including the article - they just done the guesswork for me). But it's refreshing to read something in more a positive light - in contrast to bashing and doomsday predicitions.

So "positive" made up numbers make you feel good, but "negative" made up numbers make you feel......bad? Its two sides of exactly the same coin.

- - - Updated - - -

No it just did not do aswell as SL which was the best xpac. Its sales were around wod number in sales

What do you mean SL was the "best" expansion?

- - - Updated - - -

The counter-argument for made up numbers isn't even more made up numbers.

Im just surprised to see OP openly admitting he prefers these made up numbers because they are "positive". I personally cant imagine living my life seeking made up claims that support my narrative.

[Relapses]

Im just surprised to see OP openly admitting he prefers these made up numbers because they are "positive". I personally cant imagine living my life seeking made up claims that support my narrative.

As opposed to the rampant, unending and frankly boring cynicism that you typically see in these threads? /shrug

I really don't care that much though I think discussions about how to improve the game would be easier to have if people just stopped giving a shit about the numbers in the first place.

[HansOlo]

And that's at the core of the problem: people going form "I don't know" to "I will assume".

If you don't know, just admit as much.

I don't know. I'm happy to say I don't know. I can only say "I don't like X" - my own personal preference about specific things that affect me. Anything beyond that is, for the most part, guesswork. Because the only ones with ACTUAL data are Blizzard.

But people are very reluctant to just say they don't know, just like you. You could just ASK, in this case; but that's not what you're doing. You immediately go to an assumption that jives with your position.

That's how these kinds of articles happen.

You said that the thread is about "game is doing fine". I told you - that's incorrect. It about the community belief, and why you and I disagree on what's considered success.

What kind of articles happend? You seem to not understand, that you are supposed to challange the article. Not me.

Equally - I challenge people who uses the same source - but to bash the game instead.

So instead of idealizing the perfect behaviour - speak up. I can tell from a mile - that you are on the haters wagon(if not - im sorry for my predujuice).

[ablib]

...But this doesn't adress the point of this thread anyway.

It looks like this was the point of the thread, then:

Can anyone challenge this article?

https://headphonesaddict.com/world-o...-player-count/

And this has been answered ad-infinitum in this thread. Yes...it can easily be challenged, because the "article" you linked to uses made up data as sources. It's no different than people saying "WoW is dead" with the same lack of sources.


/end thread then?

[Relapses]

You said that the thread is about "game is doing fine". I told you - that's incorrect. It about the community belief, and why you and I disagree on what's considered success.

What kind of articles happend? You seem to not understand, that you are supposed to challange the article. Not me.

Equally - I challenge people who uses the same source - but to bash the game instead.

So instead of idealizing the perfect behaviour - speak up. I can tell from a mile - that you are on the haters wagon(if not - im sorry for my predujuice).

Man, I get you're trying to anti-circlejerk here and I applaud your efforts but when you post bunk numbers like this then "challenge" people to disprove something that is easily disproven it kinda makes your case look weaker since people are more likely to dismiss your opinions outright. This ain't the way to convince people of your convictions.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Find me ONE SINGLE QUOTE where Blizzard claim SL was the HIGHEST selling expansion ever.

I didn't say they were the higest selling expan ever I said they had the highest number and that number in question was day one sells.

[HansOlo]

The counter-argument for made up numbers isn't even more made up numbers.

Nobody knows. And even if we did know, people would massively misinterpret the data anyway. We know this because from the times that Blizzard did release subscriber numbers, players would frequently look at the quarterly losses and immediately associate all losses with a certain gameplay feature being added. ie, "500k subs left during the first quarter of Cataclysm. This is because Blizzard made Heroic dungeons too hard." This is obviously a wild misinterpretation because it assumes that people quit WoW for the same reasons and it also operates under the extremely misguided presumption that WoW never gains any new subscribers. People love to make these kind of arguments because they appeal to our emotions: "Yeah, dungeons were too difficult so it makes sense that everybody left for that reason!"

Sadly, reality is a lot more boring. Even if we did know how many people were playing, we still wouldn't know the actual churn rate of subscribers since Blizzard has never made this information public. Churn rate is the number of new subscribers versus the number of subscribers lost. To explore this we'll need to delve a bit further into imaginary number territory but instead of supporting an argument, it's to illustrate that arguing about it in the first place is kinda dumb. The biggest issue I have is that a subscriber model can see growth quarter-over-quarter even if the retention is worse because there are more new players than the number of players leaving. Let's say we start the quarter with 5 million subscribers. If 6 million subscribers quit but 7 million subscribers join you would see growth on the subscriber chart. Inversely, you can losses even when retention rates are better for similar reasons. Using the same example from before, if we start a quarter with 5 million subscribers, lose 3 million but only gain 1.5 million new subscribers, the retention rate improved by 100% but since the number of total subscribers at the end of the quarter is 3.5 million, it'd interpret this as a loss on the subscriber chart.

tl,dr -- Stop giving a shit about how many subscribers WoW has.

The counter argument for made up numbers is indeed made up numbers. Or better put - more refined speculations. Both sides lack real information - EVEN then - people makes shit up.

That is the entire premise of the discussion.

[Relapses]

The counter argument for made up numbers is indeed made up numbers. Or better put - more refined speculations. Both sides lack real information - EVEN then - people makes shit up.

That is the entire premise of the discussion.

When the "refined speculation" is an algorithm which makes absolutely no fucking sense, you're on shaky grounds. As I said in the post before this, these kinds of arguments actually work against your position because you're starting from a position of bad faith. Yeah, the so-called "haters" do the same thing but two wrongs don't make a right.

[HansOlo]

When the "refined speculation" is an algorithm which makes absolutely no fucking sense, you're on shaky grounds. As I said in the post before this, these kinds of arguments actually work against your position because you're starting the argument off in bad faith. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The entire premise is based on specualtions - with or without numbers. It doesn't matter in this community - you out of everyone should know.

So no - two wrongs don't make it right. But here is no wrong - we just have speculations.

[Garretdejiko]

Find me ONE SINGLE QUOTE where Blizzard claim SL was the HIGHEST selling expansion ever.

People usually use this https://www.ign.com/articles/world-o...ce-shadowlands

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody is claiming facts(including the article - they just done the guesswork for me). But it's refreshing to read something in more a positive light - in contrast to bashing and doomsday predicitions.

Then you are easy to please...

[huth]

People usually use this https://www.ign.com/articles/world-o...ce-shadowlands

And then conveniently forget the part where Blizzard also says that DF has better player retention, meaning it isn't as simple as SL being better.

[arkanon]

I didn't say they were the higest selling expan ever I said they had the highest number and that number in question was day one sells.

You are being EXTREMELY disingenuous at the very least. Since you seem to have forgotten, ill post it here for you:

Someone said this:

didnt blizz say DF sales were the worst sales of any expansion?

No mention of "day one" or "fastest" or anything similar. You quoted exactly what i quoted above, and replied with this:

No they said they didn't reach shadowlands number which was the highest of any expan ever.

So squirm all you want, you absolutely 100% did claim it was the highest selling expansion ever.

[HansOlo]

And then conveniently forget the part where Blizzard also says that DF has better player retention, meaning it isn't as simple as SL being better.

And where is Corona in all of this equation?