DF spell rotation too bloated?

[loras]

Well, I would ofc prefer gamplay like Vindictus or Blade & Soul.

But the BM rotation is more than enough to always have something to click without it being overwhelming.

BM is really (too) simple though, it's braindead boring.
Now i'm not in favor of overcomplex "play the piano while playing a game" sorts of set ups either, but the space in between should be most heavily populated.
And more importantly: The piano shouldn't be close-to mandatory to be viable in the highest rungs.

That doesn't mean BM is anything clise to a gold standard either though. Just cutting the crap by cutting "press button to do unremarkable things" out of it could solve a lot for most classes.
"Slam" being my prime contender for such an ability (i mean i have it my sig for a reason, seriously that ability...), unless it gets consolidated into an earlier-mentioned "coat hanger" sort of ability that can be modified by talents into something actually interesting.

[Zorachus]

Just download an addon like Hekili, it tells you what button to press. I've used such an addon since MoP.

That's fine, but it's not a problem of knowing of which spells to click, it's that there's way too many spells in a "rotation" in DF. It used to be, having 5 to 6 spells was the total rotation, maybe up to 8. But in Dragonflight it seems like it's now 8 to 12 spells, which is ridiculous

[RobertMugabe]

I absolutely do think that they have added way too many useless CD's with Dragonflight, like there are many spells that are just one more button to press when it's ready without any thought being put into it.

One good example is Brewmaster Monk. There are like 4 or so CD's you kinda have to take (because they are very strong, duh) and you can pretty much press all of them at the same time as soon as they are ready without ever having to put any thought into them, like they could've just been ONE spell with a flat damage increase and defense buff instead and it would be the same. This just feels bad IMO and should be changed.

Another one is Arcane Mage... it's basically just more buttons for the sake of it.

That being said, I don't mind having a lot of buttons in principle, I am a WW monk main after all.

[Fistfighter]

Honestly, yes.

On one hand I am glad the new talent system added all of the cool borrowed power abilites of the past, but it didn't need to go this much overboard.

As much as I love when a spec has a wide range of utility, I also believe the game is best when there's less buttons to press, but more meaningfull and powerfull when you press them.

WoD was the best expansion for this. Coming from the massive ability bloat in MoP, they nicely trimmed every spec down to it's bare necesities, and it was great.

I don't think they will prune abilities ever again, because players HATE losing their spells, but I think next expansion there should be a pruning.

[RobertMugabe]

Imagine having to press a 4th or 5th button every 45-60 seconds.

The horror

As a monk I've been struggling to find another 4th or 5th free hotbar since MoP

Some specs have gotten more bloated than WW in Dragonflight and that's the issue.
Also, it makes sense for monks to have a lot of spells, especially WW, since its mastery and the chi/energy regen/FoF gameplay basically revolves around it. Furthermore, Monks (besides BrM now) don't have that many Cooldowns, but those that we do have are very situational and you know exactly what they do.

Unlike with many other specs were you just have a lot of buttons you just press as soon as they up and that's it. You don't need to know what they actually do and they don't add anything to spec, just more flat damage (or healing or w/e) that you can use anytime.

[unbound]

Keep in mind that many of the "perfect" builds that have so many buttons are based on perfect gameplay (and sometimes simulations that don't really account well for movement, etc). It is always worth simulating the "perfect" build yourself and then make a few adjustments to reduce buttons to gameplay that you can enjoy. You will find that, many times, you won't lose all that much dps.

I've done this with a few builds before I gave up on this expansion. 3 of my builds sim out at 1%-2% below the ideal, and are far more manageable for me (I'm not young anymore).

[RobertMugabe]

If you like having a lot of buttons, you now have the option to have them. If you don't, you have the option to not talent into them and instead go for passive effects

I mean sure, you can absolutely have a choice on what to take when it comes to utility and sometimes you have a couple of specialization options where you can take the one with the most passive choices, but overall you just have to take most spells regardless every time (the new talent trees have been designed this way) and for many specs this will result in you getting a lot of spells that really don't add any "fun" value to your spec, whether you like it or not.

I do agree though that there are some well designed trees where you have the choice to take less active spells and still get all your points spent + still do competitive dps/healing.

[Fitsu]

That's fine, but it's not a problem of knowing of which spells to click, it's that there's way too many spells in a "rotation" in DF. It used to be, having 5 to 6 spells was the total rotation, maybe up to 8. But in Dragonflight it seems like it's now 8 to 12 spells, which is ridiculous

Hmm, I guess. I've played rogue, warrior, Ret and Enh. The other 3 feel fine but Ret does feel a little button heavy.

[FAILoZOFF]

I think I prefered it more when specs were "set in stone" say wotlk/cata, where each class/spec had its own strenghts and weaknesses now with everything being sort of "fluid" its hard to make such distingtions.
Usually what really was up to players choice it was the little things where you had some sort of freedom having "choice" over which CDs you spec will have or CC is not really a choice as it's pretty much determined by other factors prior even getting into combat itself.

[Osmeric]

Yea even the developers have acknowledge some classes have way to much bloat. This is what people wanted apparently?

Do the devs ever explain why they do these ridiculous things? Some introspection on their part might help them make better decisions the future.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Do the devs ever explain why they do these ridiculous things? Some introspection on their part might help them make better decisions the future.

Lots of people, including on this very forum (and on this thread!) are going on endless about pruning even though it is one of the best things the game ever did.

A lot of specs are actually fine now, but there are some big outliers. Healers in particular almost half to use friend/hostile macros for healing/damage spells (at least, I do) otherwise the bloat is absolutely insane. And even with those macros, holy priests have like a billion abilities, most of which do very little.

[Deneios]

Rotation and cd usage are not the same. Your base rotation is the basic shit that you do when you have nothing else in your prio to press. Example evoker if your big damage cds are on cd you keep fire breath ticking and eternity surge when ever it comes up. Disintegrate or pyre for points. If none of these is possible then living flame.

Fucking havoc is just spam 1 and spend on 2. Or if using demonic apetite spend fury and keep your other low cd skills on cd.

If you think you dont have enough places to bind your keys go buy moba mouse and have more buttons than 3 on your mouse. You are playing a rpg not a fps where you need only wasd and 2 button mouse.

[WowIsDead64]

I don't think so. Very few specs have useless abilities, I have to take in talents, but never put on my action bars. In most cases I struggle with opposite - with filling all "standard" 16 slots. Some specs barely have 4 buttons for their ST rotation. WW Monks for example. Some specs lack AOE abilities. Some don't have enough offensive CDs. But bloat? No. No bloat.

Talents exist exactly for this purpose - to customize your playstyle. Use your brain. Just don't take active talents, if you don't want them. I have standard since Cata. 16 abilities. In most cases I try to avoid extra active effects, like usable trinkets for example. Just because they can be available on some characters, but not others. And I don't like it. But SL forced me to make 4 more keybinds - for covenant abilities. That's when we had real bloat.

And I try to use talent system to fill exactly 16 slots. And in most cases it's harder to fill them, than opposite.

[Glorious Leader]

Lots of people, including on this very forum (and on this thread!) are going on endless about pruning even though it is one of the best things the game ever did.

A lot of specs are actually fine now, but there are some big outliers. Healers in particular almost half to use friend/hostile macros for healing/damage spells (at least, I do) otherwise the bloat is absolutely insane. And even with those macros, holy priests have like a billion abilities, most of which do very little.

It ain't just holy. They mentioned that shadow and ret were bloated. Arms is also getting up there. Affliction is also really bad for this so many maintenance dots to put up.

[Qnubi]

Screw that: 1 ability max!

Heck, why even press buttons? Shift all damage into auto attacks!

For WoW Classic that is basically the case, 50% of your damage was auto attack / poisons / bleed as a melee, if not more, all done passively.

[Nymrohd]

Keep in mind that many of the "perfect" builds that have so many buttons are based on perfect gameplay (and sometimes simulations that don't really account well for movement, etc). It is always worth simulating the "perfect" build yourself and then make a few adjustments to reduce buttons to gameplay that you can enjoy. You will find that, many times, you won't lose all that much dps.

I've done this with a few builds before I gave up on this expansion. 3 of my builds sim out at 1%-2% below the ideal, and are far more manageable for me (I'm not young anymore).

I'd say that in many cases you will GAIN dps in actual combat simply because the more complex rotation may fall apart if you cannot do it perfectly while also dealing with encounter mechanics and the dps gain from the additional complexity is often just not worth it.

[kranur]

Could you note these 'at least 3 weak auras'? I would like to look into them

Well you need to track the following:
- Number of imps and expiry timer to make the best of use of Demonic Tyrant
- Demonic Core and Hand of Gul'dan procs
- New totems frame to have a movable way to track grimoire pet and dreadstalkers (not really that important)

[Nymrohd]

Well you need to track the following:
- Number of imps and expiry timer to make the best of use of Demonic Tyrant
- Demonic Core and Hand of Gul'dan procs
- New totems frame to have a movable way to track grimoire pet and dreadstalkers (not really that important)

I have to ask, I only play Demo casually but why do you need a WA to track Demonic Core and Hand of Gul'dan procs (I assume previous tier instant procs)? Those are tracked by the default UI already. Number of imps is also tracked that way (number shows up in Implosion) though yeah I agree you still need to know how long they have.

[kranur]

I have to ask, I only play Demo casually but why do you need a WA to track Demonic Core and Hand of Gul'dan procs (I assume previous tier instant procs)? Those are tracked by the default UI already. Number of imps is also tracked that way (number shows up in Implosion) though yeah I agree you still need to know how long they have.

Because the procs make them instant and being aware of when they are instsnt allows you to adjust position without having downtime or simply to know what you can cast while moving.
Only Demonic Core seems to be tracked by the default UI (at least in a way that's not just a button lighting up) and that texture is just a dark smudge that is easy to not see because of the sheer amount of things that happen on thr screen at the same time.
Imp numbers, sure can be tracked by the spell itself however that means that you need to place it somewhere near the middle of the screen ... having to look down or wherever the action bar is for each player will get you killed.
Sure you can place 20 spells in the middle of your screen to cover most of these, but that just makes it a mess.

[Nymrohd]

Because the procs make them instant and being aware of when they are instsnt allows you to adjust position without having downtime or simply to know what you can cast while moving.
Only Demonic Core seems to be tracked by the default UI (at least in a way that's not just a button lighting up) and that texture is just a dark smudge that is easy to not see because of the sheer amount of things that happen on thr screen at the same time.
Imp numbers, sure can be tracked by the spell itself however that means that you need to place it somewhere near the middle of the screen ... having to look down or wherever the action bar is for each player will get you killed.
Sure you can place 20 spells in the middle of your screen to cover most of these, but that just makes it a mess.

Oh making the button light up was always enough for me tbh. Heck I mostly make WAs to force buttons to light up in general.
But I have a lot of real estate due to playing on widescreen.