[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

They are actually making a second season?

They are making a third season as well.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Lol I forgot how bad the larper outfits were. Also you think the whitecloaks are a culture rather than a quasi religious organization made up of people from across the nations. The White Cloaks, Seanchan, and the Aes Sedai are basically the only groups who it makes sense to have intermingled rather than homogenized.

Religion and culture go hand in hand, there are plenty of people in WOT who share the beliefs but aren't white cloaks and instead turn a blind eye to what they do or help but not join.

they have there own military culture based around there religion and the show makes that distinct at a glance.

[Surfd]

Religion and culture go hand in hand, there are plenty of people in WOT who share the beliefs but aren't white cloaks and instead turn a blind eye to what they do or help but not join.

they have there own military culture based around there religion and the show makes that distinct at a glance.

The Whitecloaks are are WoT's version of what the KKK would be like if they had managed to gain the same amount of political/military power as the Spanish Inquisition.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Whitecloaks are are WoT's version of what the KKK would be like if they had managed to gain the same amount of political/military power as the Spanish Inquisition.

I think there a bit better then the KKK, they can even be reasonable like they were with Galad.

but they are obvious still zealots.

[rhorle]

I think there a bit better then the KKK, they can even be reasonable like they were with Galad. but they are obvious still zealots.

The below is from Robert Jordan so it does feel a little off for people to describe them as the KKK.

the Whitecloaks are the people who know the truth. Not just truth, they know Truth, they know Veritas, they know Truth with a capital T, they're the Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan, they're the people who know the truth and you must believe their truth or they will kill you. but they're not the Taliban, they're not the Teutonic Knights, they're not the Ku Klux Klan. They are simply that concept.

[Surfd]

I think there a bit better then the KKK, they can even be reasonable like they were with Galad.

but they are obvious still zealots.

A lot of it came down to conviction and how the character's personal moral code worked when it came to the Children.

There's a very fine line between zealot/fanatic, which covered a lot of the more cult like / evil Whitecloaks, and righteous devout believer, which is where Galad eventually ended up.

They were also an exercise in pointing out that great evil can be done in the name of good when you take absolute faith / unquestioning devotion to a dogma too far. As Jordan said, they were utterly convinced they knew the Truth (emphasis on the capital T), and were willing to kill anyone who dared question that truth. Galad eventually understood that line of thought was wrong. Most of the rest of them never got that far.

[TirielWoW]

Lol I forgot how bad the larper outfits were. Also you think the whitecloaks are a culture rather than a quasi religious organization made up of people from across the nations. The White Cloaks, Seanchan, and the Aes Sedai are basically the only groups who it makes sense to have intermingled rather than homogenized.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but religion is like...an integral part of culture. It's really difficult to try to define where religion and culture aren't intertwined. So...they can be both a religious group and defined culture apart from the cultures around them. This is also true of other extremist groups. While they develop out of a parent culture, and in many cases are still part of that culture, they operate more like subculture than anything else.

Clothing and decoration and the like can absolutely be used to differentiate culture beyond skin and hair color.

[Nymrohd]

Lol I forgot how bad the larper outfits were. Also you think the whitecloaks are a culture rather than a quasi religious organization made up of people from across the nations. The White Cloaks, Seanchan, and the Aes Sedai are basically the only groups who it makes sense to have intermingled rather than homogenized.

I'll say this.
EVERYONE would make sense to not be homogenized. Yes, even Eamon's Field.
The Third Age nations are made up of refugees that survived the war and then the Breaking. The Second Age cultures were likely already multicultural; they had access to extreme ease of travel and there were global authorities and organizations. The idea that the people who survived what would be the equivalent of a global nuclear civil war would somehow coalesce into neatly defined racial groups or that after a few thousand years diversity would have led to a series of ethnostates is kind of ludicrous. I do not fault Jordan for this; he was not an anthropologist and if you want a fantasy series that deal with cultural evolution over a long timeline they are out there (e.g. Malazan Books of the Fallen). The only group were a lack of racial diversity would have made sense would be the Aiel because they originate from a caste based society that was segregated in the previous age and remained so for the Third age.
You can have societies be diverse in their make up AND insular at the same time, especially given that the population numbers are fairly low in the main continent. Few people ever traveled to Rand's village and everyone knew each other so they could be shown as insular while being diverse just fine. Heck the entire plot point there is that Rand always was different but that can be explained easily in that his father returned from abroad and that Rand looks nothing like him so there would obviously have been gossip about it. And I prefer if they escape the fantasy trap of transplanting real world cultures (or worse, their stereotypes) into fantasy worlds; Altarra in the books very much felt like a caricature of white people's perception of Latinx people. So yeah, diversity should not have been a problem except maybe with the Aiel. You absolutely can make cultures look homogeneous by focusing on dress and speech patterns.

[Hobbidaggy]

And literally no one cares because season 1 was a disaster class in how not to adapt a beloved fantasy series.

Thank you for caring enough to follow along with the the posts on the forum about it and also for caring enough to post in said post about “nobody caring”.

[owbu]

Oh great, someone found a woman in a leadership position to bring up in every post. I was getting worried, that the show might maybe suck for a diffrent reason than "evil and incompetent woman with a genius masterplan is ruining everything on purpose, but will get fired ANY second now!".


Read the first and second book in between Season 1 and 2. I think I will be REALLY confused, when season 2 starts, because I have the book version fresh in my head now :>

[Surfd]

I'll say this.
<snip>

And you might have a valid point, if, you know, Time wasn't a thing.

The Breaking of the World happened so long ago even Aes-sedai scholars (who can live to be hundreds of years old and have access to probably the most complete collection of records and info regarding that time period) barely even get fragments of what actually happened correctly. If I read the timeline right, it's been roughly 3500 years since the Breaking. Even conservatively marking a generation as 20 years, that's 175 generations that have passed since the world broke and new empires rose and fell. The people of Eamon's Field didn't even know they were living in the remains of the once great nation of Manetheren because the events were so old they had passed out of local living memory. Even more recently, you can see that they are so efficiently isolated their own Queen had basically forgotten they exist for all practical purposes.

When you combine that with the rather insular nature of countries / nations in medieval times, there may not be as much mixing and cosmopolitanism within the nations as you might imagine. Especially when the recent history of the setting tells us that, aside from the Boarderlands, it's basically been kingdom's at each other's throats and uncomfortable alliances across the entire continent for generations. Under those kind of circumstances, the only people really moving between countries are merchants and war refugees. Entire generations of serfs and peasants would have stayed in a single location, likely never travelling farther than the next town over unless moved by great need. While we may take it for granted now, ease of movement for "normal" people was simply not a thing in those kinds of times.

Few people ever traveled to Rand's village and everyone knew each other so they could be shown as insular while being diverse just fine. Heck the entire plot point there is that Rand always was different but that can be explained easily in that his father returned from abroad and that Rand looks nothing like him so there would obviously have been gossip about it.

Except, as I mentioned, you don't STAY diverse in those situations. Unless the men from the peddler's entourage are sleeping around in every town they pass through, there would be almost no new blood coming into a community like Eamon's Field. There likely hasn't been much in the way of "new blood" introduced to the two rivers area in a dozen generations or so. When everybody has been intermarrying for multiple generations, the diversity tends to breed itself out of an insular population resulting in a more homogeneous look. Tam coming back to the village with Rand, or for that matter, Tam leaving the village in the first place due to the Aiel War, was a straight up monumental event for their population. I mean, the fact that peddlers only make it there every couple of years should say a thing or two.

[Orby]

My biggest problem with it.


I could have dealt with actors that didn't match the descriptions in the books if they were the best for the job. They weren't good actors or the best for the job. Rafe admitted he picked them for diversity, not for talent.

I could have dealt with cutting out sections of the story to make it fit for TV, but they should have given it at least 10-12 episodes. 10 could have worked, but 12 would have been better. They had the money and people would happily have watched 12. As much as I would have loved to see Rand's adventures in Caemlyn, I get why that could be cut out, but given they added Tar Valon in, Logain nonsense, and a story about a warder that only made Lan less impressive, I'm not sure what that bought them.

The thing I could not deal with was them rewriting the story to suit their own ideas. They didn't simply condence the story, they made their own fan fiction of what they thought should have happened with characters that do not match up to the ones in the books. Because of this, the deviation from the books will only get wider and the story will become totally whatever Rafe makes up, just with names you recognize from the books.

None of the story from this point makes any sense, and will keep making less and less sense, because they didn't take the subject matter seriously. They used a great story to try to make themselves look good, and it failed.

To be fair the casting for the most part I think is fine, like the actors, given what they were given, they did the best they could, we all have our visions of what our casting should be, due to how we envision it when reading a book, and I certainly would have casted differently with some people, but Rand, Perrin and Matt I enjoyed as older version of their book counterparts. I like Nynaeve too. Moiraine and Lan's casting I think was the best, like not my personal casting but now I see it, it's perfect.

There are some castings that irk me, like Min, and that may be more due to my mind visual interpretation due to her being quite petite and small in the boosk and now she's older here, so its weird. lol. I didn't like Egwene that much either, I know some did, I did not.

Loial was another although I think that's down to god awful makeup design, no fault of the actor.

the biggest problem that exposes the actors is the script, I do think if the script and story was as faithful or as interesting as the books no one would really care, some will, but largely I think no one would.

I feel sad for Wheel of time, because I do constantly think I maybe was being too harsh on the show. I keep looking back at my 4/10 score for season 1 and think 'was it really below average' and as much as I tend to highlight what I loved I then remember how bad the show is in other areas, I kinda forget how much it trumps the overall result. I think the producers and the execs behind the show really didn't want to commit to the show as much as they could have.

the show sits at 70% on imdb and 80%/60% on Rotten Tomatoes so it seems people loved it way more than I did. Maybe my expectations were just way too high.

I still remember going to see Lord of the Rings back in 2001, I was about 17 at the time and I was very sceptical, and at the time when the movie started (about 10 minutes in) I was like 'oh no this is going to be bad, they have already ruined it' but by the end I was so pleased at what they did it became the first movie I reviewed on IMDB (I gave it a 10/10, I am not subjecting you all to my 2001 review though, its so cringe lol). I guess I kinda wanted that feeling with Wheel of Time, but they kind of did the reverse effect, I enjoyed the first two episodes of Wheel of time, and then it went downhill from there.

[Mazza]

The only casting that irks me is oddly enough Rosamund Pike. Not because of her acting skills or her not fitting the character ... but her being in that role as basically the only big actor name is "forcing" the showrunners to change the story to avoid her being sidelined. It just seems so dumb to let that affect the story but I guess that is also the reality of Hollywood

[Nymrohd]

The only casting that irks me is oddly enough Rosamund Pike. Not because of her acting skills or her not fitting the character ... but her being in that role as basically the only big actor name is "forcing" the showrunners to change the story to avoid her being sidelined. It just seems so dumb to let that affect the story but I guess that is also the reality of Hollywood

I don't like Rand. He is supposed to turn heads everywhere. Not that the actor is not good looking. But Rand in the books has a presence.

[Gumble]

I'll say this.

Lord you sure did. I can see you don't understand how people work at all....

white people's perception of Latinx people

That explains it! White people that want to speak for us unsophisticated people and give us names we didn't ask for.




The Breaking was 3000 years ago, in 3000 years you would VERY much so see a separation of people by groups and a homogenation of certain areas. You only get diversity with large empires that move people around or invasions that settle new people into new lands.

Perfect example of this, 3000 years ago, the people in Greece and Italy were mostly white, many of them blonde (a trait picked up from northern germanic tribes), however after multiple invasions of Mongols, Huns, and other tribes that swept west through southern europe, the people that were not from there often settled, had babies, and mixed with the current population. 3000 years later, the people in Italy and Greece and a very distinct mix of white and western asian that makes the Mediterranean look, and nearly all of them look like that.

3000 years is a LONG time when it comes to population centers.

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The only casting that irks me is oddly enough Rosamund Pike. Not because of her acting skills or her not fitting the character ... but her being in that role as basically the only big actor name is "forcing" the showrunners to change the story to avoid her being sidelined. It just seems so dumb to let that affect the story but I guess that is also the reality of Hollywood

I agree actually. I know alot of people liked her, and she isn't a bad actress, but they should have taken the GoT route and only cast well known actors for parts that would not make it long in the story.

Moraine (assuming they ever got that far) disappears for a large chunk of the story. They would need to completely alter that because telling the actress to bounce for a few seasons isn't going to work. They will likely combine her with Verin, as she is the most likely Aes Sedai from the first 2 books to fit that role, but given Verin's role much later in the series...... you can see where it will fall apart.


It would have been better to get good actors who are relatively unknown, and only bring in big actors for parts that are short lived (ala Sean Bean), where they can make an impact and then bounce.


But..... that would be in a better show, with people that know what they are doing.

[Hobbidaggy]

Nobody posted when I posted about new cast members for House of the Dragon, either. Guess nobody gives a shit about that one because its also a giant turd

Or nobody really cares about commenting on new cast members? Not all news needs 100 comments praising that they have been told.

I normally avoid these threads because the people in them normally go on and whine about how “bad” shows are and I like to make my own opinion on them not be told it’s bad and how I should hate it

[Ragedaug]

There's nothing remotely compelling or even interesting about this shit show.

This is a good summary for me as well. When I finished reading book 1, I couldn't wait to pick up book 2, to see what was going to happen. I ended up pushing myself to watch the first full season, but don't care at all about the characters, and couldn't care less what any of them do, or what happens to them. I will not be watching season 2 unless I hear a bunch of scuttlebutt on the street talking about how amazing the show is and how they fixed 'all the things' that were wrong from season 1.

[Orby]

I try to be positive about the show. Cos I do think the show isnt the worst thing ever as far as fantasy book adaptions go (Sword of Shannara I am looking at you), I do think the stuff it does well it does do really well. Just sad the stuff I do not like about the show overshadows the stuff I like, and I just think its frustrating at times. So my reaction fo WoT isn't 'hate' just 'frustration' :P

[Triceron]

Sadly, I know how these threads work. Look at how this one kicked off again from a guy posting how nobody cares about new cast members being announced.

Well he's not exactly wrong either.

Were there any notable celebrities announced for HotD S2? If not I could see why it doesn't get the buzz you are looking for.

[Xath]

I'll say this.
EVERYONE would make sense to not be homogenized. Yes, even Eamon's Field.
The Third Age nations are made up of refugees that survived the war and then the Breaking. The Second Age cultures were likely already multicultural; they had access to extreme ease of travel and there were global authorities and organizations. The idea that the people who survived what would be the equivalent of a global nuclear civil war would somehow coalesce into neatly defined racial groups or that after a few thousand years diversity would have led to a series of ethnostates is kind of ludicrous. I do not fault Jordan for this; he was not an anthropologist and if you want a fantasy series that deal with cultural evolution over a long timeline they are out there (e.g. Malazan Books of the Fallen). The only group were a lack of racial diversity would have made sense would be the Aiel because they originate from a caste based society that was segregated in the previous age and remained so for the Third age.
You can have societies be diverse in their make up AND insular at the same time, especially given that the population numbers are fairly low in the main continent. Few people ever traveled to Rand's village and everyone knew each other so they could be shown as insular while being diverse just fine. Heck the entire plot point there is that Rand always was different but that can be explained easily in that his father returned from abroad and that Rand looks nothing like him so there would obviously have been gossip about it. And I prefer if they escape the fantasy trap of transplanting real world cultures (or worse, their stereotypes) into fantasy worlds; Altarra in the books very much felt like a caricature of white people's perception of Latinx people. So yeah, diversity should not have been a problem except maybe with the Aiel. You absolutely can make cultures look homogeneous by focusing on dress and speech patterns.

Literally not true thousands of years of near isolation post breaking.

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Oh great, someone found a woman in a leadership position to bring up in every post. I was getting worried, that the show might maybe suck for a diffrent reason than "evil and incompetent woman with a genius masterplan is ruining everything on purpose, but will get fired ANY second now!".


Read the first and second book in between Season 1 and 2. I think I will be REALLY confused, when season 2 starts, because I have the book version fresh in my head now :>

Nah it sucks because of Rafe thinking he is actually worthy of not just adjusting Jordan's work but implementing his own idiotic ideas. Now whoever hired him after reading his original first episode outline is an absolute idiot but it sucks because of Rafe.

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Religion and culture go hand in hand, there are plenty of people in WOT who share the beliefs but aren't white cloaks and instead turn a blind eye to what they do or help but not join.

they have there own military culture based around there religion and the show makes that distinct at a glance.

They are basically the KKK with a thicker veneer on top of their awfulness. I'm also specifically talking about the majority of cultures which are incredibly insular and near isolated until the dragon starts breaking everything open. The White Cloaks by hatred cross country lines the Aes Sedai by Power and the Seanchan by conquest over innumerable years. Those are the 3 groups that aren't isolated prior to the events of the series. Half of the rest of the countries are in either open war or a cold war between each other not exactly much chance of commingling.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but religion is like...an integral part of culture. It's really difficult to try to define where religion and culture aren't intertwined. So...they can be both a religious group and defined culture apart from the cultures around them. This is also true of other extremist groups. While they develop out of a parent culture, and in many cases are still part of that culture, they operate more like subculture than anything else.

Clothing and decoration and the like can absolutely be used to differentiate culture beyond skin and hair color.

Yes and the white cloaks, aes sedai, and seanchan are the ones that would make sense to be non homogenous that said I don't think hatred creates a culture personally if anything they are much more similar to the kkk and other hate groups.