[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[JDL49]

But the movie? X-men 1 starts with him being a victim of Nazis

There were also at least a quarter million Romanii exterminated in the camps. later research states a much
higher number.

[Ophenia]

You are asking for coherence in an universe that ( mimicking the comics) pretty much lacks it but information compartmentalization is not a cause of it.

(snipped the post to avoid long quote)

To be fair, even if Xandar's destruction was widely known in the universe, there's not so much anyone could have done. You could instantly know Thanos has eradicated one of the most powerful civilization (+ finished Asgardians right after), what will you do ? Go there and confront him alone ? At best, you'd want to stack up as many people & ship as possible, which can't happen in a reasonable time frame.

The only person who could have done something is Captain Marvel. And then what ? "Thanos has erased Xandar!" "Ok cool but how am I supposed to know where he is ?"
In fact she probably started looking for him immediately considering she arrived "in time" around Titan to find the Milan & save Stark/Nebula.

Then on Earth... I don't know how long the battle in Wakanda lasts exactly in-universe but that's definitely not long, like one hour at best ? 2 ?
Fury could have known but it doesn't mean he could have done much, especially post-Winter Soldier / Civil War.

There will always be this kind of issues in-universe. With some excuses here and there that we can make-up on the spot to justify their absences (like the Eternals who are not supposed to care about anything but Deviant stuff even if this means the entire planet can be eradicated including the Celestial-to-be-born they're supposed to defend, Ancient One / Sorcerer Supreme who only protects Earth from magical threats from other universes...), but it's bound to have flaws when we talk about a 20+ year-long cinematic universe.

[Surfd]

Then on Earth... I don't know how long the battle in Wakanda lasts exactly in-universe but that's definitely not long, like one hour at best ? 2 ?

Fury could have known but it doesn't mean he could have done much, especially post-Winter Soldier / Civil War.

Banner had enough time after Ebony Maw kidnaps strange to contact Steve, who then has enough time to track down Wanda and Vision to protect them from some of Thanos's flunkies, and then they all get together and have a meeting, where they decide to go to Wakanda. Reasonable to assume that if they had that much time to get in touch and formulate a plan, that they could also have at least tried to reach out to pretty much everyone on their contact lists who they though could possibly help. Especially since Banner would have filled them in fully on just exactly how dangerous the Threat heading their way is.

[Dystemper]

Probably the easiest thing would be to say that Mutants were here all along , and Professor X has just tinkered with people's memories of them and kept the X-men secret . They did fight , contribute but Charles would wipe the memory of it from everyone's conscious. Then something happens that forces them into the spot light and ir he feels the time is right for the world to know.

Sloppy as fuck , but easy and cheap for Disney and not tirally out if character fir Charles using Cerebro that way.

[Ophenia]

Banner had enough time after Ebony Maw kidnaps strange to contact Steve, who then has enough time to track down Wanda and Vision to protect them from some of Thanos's flunkies, and then they all get together and have a meeting, where they decide to go to Wakanda. Reasonable to assume that if they had that much time to get in touch and formulate a plan, that they could also have at least tried to reach out to pretty much everyone on their contact lists who they though could possibly help. Especially since Banner would have filled them in fully on just exactly how dangerous the Threat heading their way is.

True, I didn't count in the events in the beginning of the movie.
But even then :
1- How many "important people" does a Bruce Banner who was on Sakaar for the last few years know ?
2- The remaining superheroes/Avengers on earth were still under the radar post-Civil War, so not so many contact with anyone.
3- Even if they succeeded in reaching someone for help...
3a- Pretty difficult to convince anyone from doing anything - the ship that has kidnapped Strange with Spider-Man & Iron Man disappearing at the same time has left to god knows where, so defend earth against what ?
3b- the plan was to bring Vision to Wakanda to extract/destroy the stone, what are the chances a nation as moronic as Wakanda would have allowed any other army / force to enter in their country (which is still hidden as far as I remember) ?

All in all, there is not so much anyone could have done more than what they did in Infinity War. Fury was resourceless (as much as Fury can be), most remaining Avengers were renegades, Wakanda would likely have refused any help, and nobody even knew what to expect anyway.

To be fair, the only "smart" plan would have been to repair Vision - which I believe could have been achieved 200 times faster than trying to decouple the stone from him, then he could have helped defeating Thanos. It's pretty clear that if Wanda didn't focus half her power toward destroying the stone, Wanda + Vision could have had an upper hand in this 2v1.

[PrimiOne]

(snipped the post to avoid long quote)

To be fair, even if Xandar's destruction was widely known in the universe, there's not so much anyone could have done. You could instantly know Thanos has eradicated one of the most powerful civilization (+ finished Asgardians right after), what will you do ? Go there and confront him alone ? At best, you'd want to stack up as many people & ship as possible, which can't happen in a reasonable time frame.

The only person who could have done something is Captain Marvel. And then what ? "Thanos has erased Xandar!" "Ok cool but how am I supposed to know where he is ?"
In fact she probably started looking for him immediately considering she arrived "in time" around Titan to find the Milan & save Stark/Nebula.

Then on Earth... I don't know how long the battle in Wakanda lasts exactly in-universe but that's definitely not long, like one hour at best ? 2 ?
Fury could have known but it doesn't mean he could have done much, especially post-Winter Soldier / Civil War.

There will always be this kind of issues in-universe. With some excuses here and there that we can make-up on the spot to justify their absences (like the Eternals who are not supposed to care about anything but Deviant stuff even if this means the entire planet can be eradicated including the Celestial-to-be-born they're supposed to defend, Ancient One / Sorcerer Supreme who only protects Earth from magical threats from other universes...), but it's bound to have flaws when we talk about a 20+ year-long cinematic universe.

Oh I don't see it as flaws.No, really. As I said the lack of coherence is not caused because not every character is near omniscient.

It the Thanos situation everything is perfectly coherent ( you exposed reasons of inaction ...I just simplified it in :"Nobody new") and in the Ultron one well....not perfectly,it can be argued that Fury should have called Marvel but even in this case we can rationalize that Fury does not know Ultron's plan of using vibranium to create an earth killer and think the Avengers can handle it.

A flaw is a rupture of the internal logical presented and characters not taking a particular course of action is not that.

I just presented a list of events to describe how viewer omniscience can not be projected in the characters because we have this recurrent question that is gonna be pervasive in a lot of new heros presented after blip that I find confusing and contradictory:"What were you doing during....?" that ,of course, is gonna be applied to X-Men.

There's absolutely no explanation needed to why the X-Men ( a group that as long as we know is not even a thing back then) didn't fight Thanos. In fact , it's the other way: it's the X-Men intervening the event that DO need an explanation and detailed about how they got that information, about how they knew Thanos plan, about how they new when and where given that absolutely no one in the universe but the Avengers/Guardians had that knowledge.

[JDL49]

Frankly I do not see a logical way to re-start the X-Men. Mutants yes. Individuals can easily show up. But I just can't
see Prof X and anything like a classic lineup given the current history and anything not based on E-616 or whatever
we are calling the main Earth variant will not, imnsho fly. YMMV.

[Kathandira]

There's also serious problems with the idea that "Blip happened, some people came back mutants". Because now, you've got a Professor X who's just recently become a mutant with no history of mutantkind, and there's very little reason for him to have that immediate desire to build a school for mutant kids; that always came about after Xavier growing up in a world where mutantkind was constantly under attack and he could push to try and mend the divides and protect the kids. Also, the ages of people with powers would be all over, not just kids, and there isn't a population of mutants having new kids that already exists.

I was thinking about something that could make this work.

Using Wandavision as the catalyst. Her hex awakened a gene in Monica and her powers emerged. What if all the people in the hex were also affected. What if they had kids that are born with the X Gene activated. So far, the two mutants we have are Ms Marvel, and Monica. Both have had their X-Gene awakened by cosmic forces (Infinity Stone Empowered Magic, and the Noor bangle). We'd need some kind of time jump to make this work though, which is where the idea can fall apart. But if Xavier was born from parents who lived in the hex, it would be an interesting angle.

[JDL49]

There's absolutely no explanation needed to why the X-Men ( a group that as long as we know is not even a thing back then) didn't fight Thanos. In fact , it's the other way: it's the X-Men intervening the event that DO need an explanation and detailed about how they got that information, about how they knew Thanos plan, about how they new when and where given that absolutely no one in the universe but the Avengers/Guardians had that knowledge.

That approach won't work. Logic doesn't matter. Too many people simply will refuse to accept the idea.

- - - Updated - - -

I was thinking about something that could make this work.

Using Wandavision as the catalyst. Her hex awakened a gene in Monica and her powers emerged. What if all the people in the hex were also affected. What if they had kids that are born with the X Gene activated. So far, the two mutants we have are Ms Marvel, and Monica. Both have had their X-Gene awakened by cosmic forces (Infinity Stone Empowered Magic, and the Noor bangle). We'd need some kind of time jump to make this work though, which is where the idea can fall apart. But if Xavier was born from parents who lived in the hex, it would be an interesting angle.

It would mean seriously kneecapping the existing storylines but if you accept that (and some won't) then maybe. For example the blip caused the X-Gene to activate in some of the survivors. That gives you mutants but a terrrible cost.

[Kathandira]

As a jew I think making magneto anything other than a holocaust survivor is the jewish equivalent of making t'challa a white dude.

its incredibly easy to just say magnetos powers make him age slower.

you can even pull a wolverine and come up with some dumb explanation for why the actors aging like in old man logan.

then you don't have to remove a jewish icon whos Judaism is actually integral to his character and backstory.

when antisemitism has been on the rise i dont think now is the time to start changing up the dude who literally survived the holocaust

Magneto is also a genocidal maniac. In some ways, he is no different than Hitler.

[Endus]

Magneto is also a genocidal maniac. In some ways, he is no different than Hitler.

To play devil's advocate; Magneto's basic stance is "if we don't kill them first, they'll kill all of us." And the big difference between Magneto and Hitler in this, is that Magneto's right. He's continually proven right that the threat he's faced with is real; multiple literal attempts to purge the entire mutant race are pulled off in the timeline, on behalf of the rest of humanity. Hitler thought his victims were subhumans who leeched off Aryan supremacy. Erik Lensherr is prepping defense against a very real genocide.

The comparison would be if Jewish citizens in Nazi Germany banded together and had enough military strength to try and kill the Nazis, thus preventing the Holocaust from succeeding. It's hard to see that as an invalid approach, since it's basically what the Allies did anyway, just too late to save most of the victims.

And that's why Erik's so tragic a figure and why he gets along so well with Xavier. They both see the looming genocide of their people. Erik wants to fight those seeking to destroy them, Xavier wants to integrate with them. Which, to Erik, looks like suggesting the Jews should have worked with the Nazis, not opposed them. Xavier's stance is really pretty fuckin' iffy, too, in a lot of ways, which is why the comics have increasingly moved past it. Xavier's kind of an awful person, possibly worse than Erik, when you get down to brass tacks.

[Kathandira]

To play devil's advocate; Magneto's basic stance is "if we don't kill them first, they'll kill all of us." And the big difference between Magneto and Hitler in this, is that Magneto's right. He's continually proven right that the threat he's faced with is real; multiple literal attempts to purge the entire mutant race are pulled off in the timeline, on behalf of the rest of humanity. Hitler thought his victims were subhumans who leeched off Aryan supremacy. Erik Lensherr is prepping defense against a very real genocide.

The comparison would be if Jewish citizens in Nazi Germany banded together and had enough military strength to try and kill the Nazis, thus preventing the Holocaust from succeeding. It's hard to see that as an invalid approach, since it's basically what the Allies did anyway, just too late to save most of the victims.

And that's why Erik's so tragic a figure and why he gets along so well with Xavier. They both see the looming genocide of their people. Erik wants to fight those seeking to destroy them, Xavier wants to integrate with them. Which, to Erik, looks like suggesting the Jews should have worked with the Nazis, not opposed them. Xavier's stance is really pretty fuckin' iffy, too, in a lot of ways, which is why the comics have increasingly moved past it. Xavier's kind of an awful person, possibly worse than Erik, when you get down to brass tacks.

I agree with that synopsis. The part where I see it getting crazy, and the part that makes him a compelling villain, is when he starts going on a rant about mutants being a superior race, and how he is just speeding up the inevitable. Its quite hitlerish.

- - - Updated - - -

Xavier's kind of an awful person, possibly worse than Erik, when you get down to brass tacks.

And this too! lol. I kinda like the dynamic between two people who on the surface are the Hero and the Villain. But once the layers are peeled back, they are both complex and neither are a hero nor a villain.

[Endus]

I agree with that synopsis. The part where I see it getting crazy, and the part that makes him a compelling villain, is when he starts going on a rant about mutants being a superior race, and how he is just speeding up the inevitable. Its quite hitlerish.

Yeah, villain. Devil's advocate. He's not right, but you can understand why he's making those choices.

And this too! lol. I kinda like the dynamic between two people who on the surface are the Hero and the Villain. But once the layers are peeled back, they are both complex and neither are a hero nor a villain.

Erik's at least a traumatized Holocaust survivor who's desperate to protect his people from very real threats of genocide, and often goes too far in that pursuit.

Xavier's a creepy fuckin' bastard of a human being. He runs a school and groomed one of his first students with mind control levels of "creepy bastard".

[Northern Goblin]

‘Guardians of the Galaxy 3’ Dominates U.K. Box Office With 72% Market Share

Not that surprising, most of our cinemas are only showing it, Mario, John Wick and Evil Dead.

Get what they can before Spiderverse, Fast and Furious and Transformers drop in the coming weeks.

[Sorrowseer]

Theres 0 heart or emotion left in these movies because they cant even let the dramatic moments breath let alone they HAVE to comment on how crazy everything is. I dont care that the story is crazy, your jobs as actors/story tellers is to sell it as genuine but they constantly think they have this get out of jail free card by pointing out how ridiculous the story is for cheap laughs rather than trying to be sincere and genuine and taking the story seriously.

I watched the new Antman recently and when they met the refugee's I knew what was going to happen and it did, they turned it into a bunch of 'characters' with a joke that would reappear later in the movie, the 'holes' thing in this case, its really annoying when you notice them doing the same stuff every single movie.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

But the movie? X-men 1 starts with him being a victim of Nazis

Jews werent the only victims of the nazis

[Dystemper]

I watched the new Antman recently and when they met the refugee's I knew what was going to happen and it did, they turned it into a bunch of 'characters' with a joke that would reappear later in the movie, the 'holes' thing in this case, its really annoying when you notice them doing the same stuff every single movie.

That's because they hire writers and directors with no real expieierence in movies. They hire activists and documentary writers and directors. Shit most of them are not even fans if the material or know it. It became too formulaic.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I agree with that synopsis. The part where I see it getting crazy, and the part that makes him a compelling villain, is when he starts going on a rant about mutants being a superior race, and how he is just speeding up the inevitable. Its quite hitlerish.

Again, the difference is that mutants actually are the superior race. We're not just talking about blond hair and blue eyes here. And keep in mind that Auschwitz wasn't the only time he was faced with the worst in humanity. He lived through all of that, tried to live a relatively normal life, and then went through it all again when his family was murdered... this time because he was a mutant. He's just not inclined to let it all keep happening.

When Magneto is written correctly, he understands what he does is just as evil as what was done to him... but for him it is a necessary evil. It really is an "it's us or them" situation for him. He wants to believe in Charles dream of peaceful co-existence... he's even tried it himself on occassion... but he keeps bumping up against what he sees as the inevitablility that humans just are not interested in that at all.

[Biomega]

When Magneto is written correctly, he understands what he does is just as evil as what was done to him... but for him it is a necessary evil. It really is an "it's us or them" situation for him. He wants to believe in Charles dream of peaceful co-existence... he's even tried it himself on occassion... but he keeps bumping up against what he sees as the inevitablility that humans just are not interested in that at all.

And who could blame him, really. He really isn't some kind of blind ideologue deluded by some bizarre vision of the world that's removed from reality - time and time again, regular humans really DO try and kill/control mutants just for being mutants. Whether or not his responses are justified, the THREAT he's invoking is far from imaginary.

If anyone is deluded it's Charles, because "let's all coexist happily despite our differences" is a far more unrealistic future than a war between humans and mutants.

What I'm more interested in than that dynamic, though, is another question that's often left underexplored in the X-Men: maybe mutants replacing humans completely is, well, a GOOD thing? That doesn't mean mutants should exterminate regular humans or anything, but you could well make the argument that the next evolutionary step taking over eventually is not something to be fought or resisted. Hard sell in fiction, of course, because the audience is human and they don't like to see themselves on the losing side It'd be like a big Hollywood movie going "you know what, maybe America ISN'T the bestest awesomest country in the world and they SHOULD just listen to others and let them change their ways". Not going to happen anytime soon.

[exochaft]

That's because they hire writers and directors with no real expieierence in movies. They hire activists and documentary writers and directors. Shit most of them are not even fans if the material or know it. It became too formulaic.

What's worse is that they're kept in the dark by the producers and executives when it comes to how their movie is going to fit into the overarching narrative. Heck, there's behind-the-scenes footage where they're filming with incomplete scripts without known whether X and Y major characters are even alive by the time their content gets released. Kinda makes sense that a lot of their projects are going into massive reshoots, as the order of the content keeps changing and isn't really planned in any cohesive way until the last minute (if that). It's to the point that their content feels like a mashup of several different scripts due to reshoots and having to condense/suspend other content while not knowing when their content will be placed relevant to the overarching narrative.

Even with GotG 3, despite being probably one of the better installments since the start of Phase 4, the film has so many issues stemming from how much of a mess the MCU is right now as well as likely suffering because of everything that came before it. In terms of movies that have the potential to draw in audiences, GotG 3 is probably the last movie unless something drastically changes as the GotG cast is pretty much all that's left of characters that people care about. No one really cares about the Marvels, and I expect most normies to not even know who Rambo and Ms. Marvel even are. There really won't be hype for an Avengers movie because there are no characters left that anyone really feels attached to like they did in the earlier phases with Ironman, Capt. America, Thor, etc.

Ultimately, it's way easier to lose fans and customers than it is to gain them back (or get new ones). The Disney MCU strategy thus far has been to alienate or piss off their existing fan base or the fans that built up their franchise, only to replace it with a new one that really don't exist in any large number. On top of poorly executing their content creation since the start of Phase 4, they've lost an insane amount of good faith from hardcore fans and even the normies at this point. What's really sad is that things didn't have to be this way at all, nor did anyone want this to happen. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the MCU goes the way of Star Wars, transitioning from a massive box office franchise to a TV franchise that less and less people care about.