Orc Tinkers, and Griselda/Maim Blackhand

[Skytotem]

The Orc Heritage quest has Eitrigg, Ariok, and Thura as representatives of the Blackrock Clan, but they're all on the 'warrior' end of the clan's theme of 'warriors and blacksmiths'.

Maim, Rend Blackhand's brother, supposedly died years ago fighting the Dark Iron dwarves (an odd, offscreen death) while Griselda died in WC2 along with her Ogre paramour Turok... BUT Orgrim was noted in the Rise Of the Horde novel to -like- Griselda unlike Rend and Maim, so there's a good chance he didn't kill Griselda or Turok after wiping out her forces.

Having the Dark Irons drive the Blackrock clan out of Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge and into the Badlands would provide the perfect opportunity to have them both resurface, having been in hiding from Nefarians forces and given up on political power over the years... and instead focused on studying smithing and machinery, providing the avenue to give MU Orcs access to the Tinker class alongside the AU mag'har, and fill out the rest of the Blackrock Roster.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

WoW already has too varieties of Orcs (noble savage orcs, called Orcs in Warcraft, and the industrial savage orcs, called Goblins in Warcraft). I don't think it would be wise to dilute the aesthetic of the two by having them encroach upon each other's aesthetic territory.

[Maljinwo]

Well, the Alliance does have Dwarves and Dark iron dwarves specialize in mechanical stuff in a different way than gnomes

I don't see why the Horde couldn't have the AU Blackrock build at least more Iron Stars. Seemed pretty effective

[Skytotem]

WoW already has too varieties of Orcs (noble savage orcs, called Orcs in Warcraft, and the industrial savage orcs, called Goblins in Warcraft). I don't think it would be wise to dilute the aesthetic of the two by having them encroach upon each other's aesthetic territory.

The Blackrock aesthetic is already industrial, what are you even talking about?

[Aucald]

The Blackrock aesthetic is already industrial, what are you even talking about?

They're already pretty distinct as they stand. Goblins have a kind of slapdash steampunk aesthetic, whereas the Blackrock clan is more blackened metal and grimdark industrial.

[Cheezits]

They are definitely not doing much with the MU Orcs and engineering, that seems to be going to the AU Mag'har and particularly the Blackrocks among them. They even elaborated on their pretty immediate connection to the Goblins during BFA.

It makes sense as they were introduced to Goblin tech during the events of WOD and then one timeskip later have become even more modernized in their technology. In my RP headcanon I even thought it would be fun if the Mag'har had a veneration for Goblins as they lead to an industrial revolution and then either mostly died (the Blackfuse traitors) or disappeared back to Azeroth. So now they can meet the race that lead to such a shift in their culture.

Blizz will lean into the "old ways" more with the MU Orcs as we see during the events of the Heritage quest.

[Skytotem]

They're already pretty distinct as they stand. Goblins have a kind of slapdash steampunk aesthetic, whereas the Blackrock clan is more blackened metal and grimdark industrial.

Admittedly I'm not a fan of the Bilgewater's more slapdash construction, feels a little off from the WC3/ Vanilla shredders and zeppelins.

[Aucald]

Admittedly I'm not a fan of the Bilgewater's more slapdash construction, feels a little off from the WC3/ Vanilla shredders and zeppelins.

I kind of like that the Bilgewater and Steamwheedle cartels have their own unique aesthetic while both still being identifiably goblinesque. I like to think of the Bilgewater goblin aesthetic as "goblin Skid Row chic."

[Venziir]

The Orc Heritage quest has Eitrigg, Ariok, and Thura as representatives of the Blackrock Clan, but they're all on the 'warrior' end of the clan's theme of 'warriors and blacksmiths'.

Maim, Rend Blackhand's brother, supposedly died years ago fighting the Dark Iron dwarves (an odd, offscreen death) while Griselda died in WC2 along with her Ogre paramour Turok... BUT Orgrim was noted in the Rise Of the Horde novel to -like- Griselda unlike Rend and Maim, so there's a good chance he didn't kill Griselda or Turok after wiping out her forces.

Having the Dark Irons drive the Blackrock clan out of Burning Steppes and Searing Gorge and into the Badlands would provide the perfect opportunity to have them both resurface, having been in hiding from Nefarians forces and given up on political power over the years... and instead focused on studying smithing and machinery, providing the avenue to give MU Orcs access to the Tinker class alongside the AU mag'har, and fill out the rest of the Blackrock Roster.

Griselda died in wc1 and since she has never been mentioned since, not even in chronicles it’s safe to assume she is Non-Canon.

[Aucald]

Griselda died in wc1 and since she has never been mentioned since, not even in chronicles it’s safe to assume she is Non-Canon.

Griselda is mentioned in the Rise of the Horde novel, as well; with Grom specifically disallowing her from receiving the blood of Mannoroth as a punishment - which apparently led to her actions in WC1 running off with an ogre.

[Shadowferal]

Admittedly I'm not a fan of the Bilgewater's more slapdash construction, feels a little off from the WC3/ Vanilla shredders and zeppelins.

Goblins are all about saving money which means cutting costs...and cutting corners.
I can see the text; "Building regulations?" The goblin carpenter blinks bewildered at the concept. "Time is money friend and you're wasting both."

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Griselda is mentioned in the Rise of the Horde novel, as well; with Grom specifically disallowing her from receiving the blood of Mannoroth as a punishment - which apparently led to her actions in WC1 running off with an ogre.

It's Blackhand, her father, who forbade her from drinking the blood of Mannoroth just out of spite, though Durotan was relieved since he was fond of her and knew what was the true meaning of drinking it.

[Aucald]

It's Blackhand, her father, who forbade her from drinking the blood of Mannoroth just out of spite, though Durotan was relieved since he was fond of her and knew what was the true meaning of drinking it.

Sorry, got the two mixed up. It was Blackhand, yes.

[Skytotem]

I kind of like that the Bilgewater and Steamwheedle cartels have their own unique aesthetic while both still being identifiably goblinesque. I like to think of the Bilgewater goblin aesthetic as "goblin Skid Row chic."

I'm fine with it being a bit different but there's just something about it that doesn't sit right with me, just a tad too slapdash. Like they're fresh out of the destruction of Kezan even years after the fact.

[Aucald]

I'm fine with it being a bit different but there's just something about it that doesn't sit right with me, just a tad too slapdash. Like they're fresh out of the destruction of Kezan even years after the fact.

I always felt it was like they care even less about stability and/or overall quality than the Steamwheedle. Even Bilgewater Port in Kezan before its destruction was pretty slapdash and slipshod - looking more like a steampunk junkyard than a mad inventor's factory. I think that's just how they roll, really.

[Skytotem]

I always felt it was like they care even less about stability and/or overall quality than the Steamwheedle. Even Bilgewater Port in Kezan before its destruction was pretty slapdash and slipshod - looking more like a steampunk junkyard than a mad inventor's factory. I think that's just how they roll, really.

Bilgewater port always felt just a tad too modern to me with the hotrod, but the fun factor overrode it. I do think that they should tinker with the Bilgewater's aesthetic to go a little heavier on alchemy and less on 'junkyard pollution' though.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Blackrock aesthetic is already industrial, what are you even talking about?

Orcs originate in JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings novel, and are prominent in two other game franchises, most notably Warhammer Fantasy Warcraft.

In LotR, they are ape-like, sometimes crawling on all four limbs. They have black skin, not dark brown skin. Black, ash-like skin. They are very savage, even to each other. They cannibalize each other if they need to. They have rough armor and wield scimitars. They hate the sun. They live underground in tunnels and don't make anything beautiful, but they are intelligent, and they are able to build industrial machines. Tolkien implies they might be responsible for the industrial machines that exist in our modern era, which is important because of what the Orcs represent.

As a story element, what do the Orcs do? They are a threat to the heroes and they are scary because they are monsters. Tolkien uses a variety of synonyms to describe Orcs: goblins, hobgoblins, Uruk-Hai, etc. These are all describing the same basic thing. Orcs are representative of Tolkien's Catholic world view on humanity and sin. Orcs were "made" by Morgoth, they weren't made by Illuvatar. We don't know how exactly they were made, whether Morgoth captured Elves and twisted them into Orcs or if he made a race from scratch the way Aule made the Dwarves. Either way, Morgoth cannot create anything beautiful on his own. The Orcs are a mockery of the elves, the children of Illuvatar, made in his likeness. Elves, like God, are beautiful. Their minds are like Illuvatar and they are in harmony with him. When Elves create things, they are magical because they are in harmony with God. When Orcs invent something, they destroy the creation. They tear down trees to burn them in furnaces to turn a wheel to dig a hole. They are not making beautiful corridors or mansions to live in. They dig tunnels to throw their garbage in. Everything an Orc does is destructive and in disharmony with all of creation because Morgoth was the source of all dissonance. Morgoth is against God, so his Orcs are not just a perversion, they are a mockery of elves, of men, of Illuvatar. A lot of this had to do with the concept of Original Sin, but if you're not Catholic: Original Sin is something you inherit, it is not something you do. It is the corruption of your nature. The Protestant view tends to be that infant baptism cannot erase Original Sin. The Orcs represent a fully corrupt nature, perhaps without any spiritual knowledge. Elves have spiritual knowledge, they have a mind like God. Orcs do not, which would explain their attitude towards God's creation and each other.

By the time you reach Warhammer Fantasy, Orcs have acquired other features as well, the first one being green skin, tusks, bigger than people, muscular, etc.

Then you reach Warcraft: Orcs Humans, which give Orcs a Mongolian/Asian steppe tent people aesthetic. Their society is a Mongolian horde. They are a horde of crazy good warriors who don't have any permanent settlements. They are a nomadic people. Then you reach Warcraft 3, where the Orcs become the noble savage: a primitive, savage, but ultimately good creature that has been corrupted by demonic blood. They originally had brown skin, but drinking demon blood turned them green. Thrall is the first good Orc character, a shaman in tune with the natural spirits trying to redeem his people. We also have Grom, who shows remorse for his actions. So with Warcraft 3 we start to shift into this noble savage view of Orcs: they are primitive, but they are not evil, and lose the industrial savageness of Tolkien's orc.

World of Warcraft has another variant of Orcs: goblins, which represent that industrial evil that originally existed in Tolkien's view: destroying the environment, creating pools of muk, building shredders to chop down trees to build speedways for their hotrods which explode because they don't care to make things good or safe, etc. They can't create beautiful things. They are the antithesis of the noble savage. They are the industrial savage. They also do not get along with the other Horde races, the Orcs and the Trolls and the Tauren.

The WoD Blackrock clan was a one off expansion faction. Their gimmick is that they're using goblin technology anyway. Making them more prominent outside of that and turning Warcraft Orcs into industrial savages when we already have Goblins who fulfill that role does not make sense.

[Venziir]

Griselda is mentioned in the Rise of the Horde novel, as well; with Grom specifically disallowing her from receiving the blood of Mannoroth as a punishment - which apparently led to her actions in WC1 running off with an ogre.

True, but there are literally no other mentions of her ever again. So yeah.

[Aucald]

True, but there are literally no other mentions of her ever again. So yeah.

She died, Blackhand died, as did her brothers Rend and Maim - there's scarcely a need to mention her anymore, but she was a part of the lore. Griselda's not the only character with little mention in the game but who was nonetheless part of its lore. Barathen Wrynn doesn't get mentioned much either, but he's still a character in the lore.

[Skytotem]

Orcs originate in JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings novel, and are prominent in two other game franchises, most notably Warhammer Fantasy Warcraft.

*Lots of backtracking general nerd knowledge*

The WoD Blackrock clan was a one off expansion faction. Their gimmick is that they're using goblin technology anyway. Making them more prominent outside of that and turning Warcraft Orcs into industrial savages when we already have Goblins who fulfill that role does not make sense.

I don't know if it was your intent but that whole retread of tolkien stuff just came across as condescending.

I'm perfectly aware of orcs thematic origins. I'm not disagreeing with you because you have some special knowledge or insight I'm not privy to, I'm disagreeing with you because you're wrong.

Regardless of the WoD blackrock's techs originating with goblins they're clearly still capable of doing their own thing in the raid and still have it in their faction assault stuff in BFA judging by the presence of their big ship, the AU orcs are with us and they're still industrial.

Hell even the MU blackrocks had a vaguely industrial bent due to all of the stuff in blackrock spire even if large chunks of it were ruins. Orgrimmar is industrial looking, Warsong Hold was too. Even if you make the argument that blizz backed off of that when Garrosh went out of power the fact remains those aesthetics are part of the orcs and not goblins.

Also... Goblins aren't 'savage' in WoW.