Dragonflight 10.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Santandame]

I've lost before lol. I just like being a bit cocky sometimes.

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I'm well aware, cause I thought the story would move that way for some bit. Also, Realm of Order isn't out of the possibilities at all, what? There is potential for it to be something different, that much is very clear, I even made mention of it. I'm just team Order Realm atm, but I'm fully capable of changing my theories if things point an entirely different route. Besides, I did say it would either be Life Realm or something like Dragons to calm the mood. And I'm kinda half right, assuming we do explore more of the Dream and we end up seeing both the Eye of Ysera and maybe Elune's area as well?

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Would be a better option than the others.

I’m genuinely curious what in this expansion makes you think next will be the cosmic realms of Order? We know Blizzard want to keep the story a bit more grounded as opposed to cosmic due to feedback, a least for a little while.

Going off subtle hints that we usually tend to see in expansions, the likely contenders are looking like one of Avaloren, underground Azeroth, Tel’Abim, South Seas or Ancient Kalimdor. With Emerald Dream being a more overt possibility if it isn’t patch content.

[Le Conceptuel]

I'd disagree since the supposition of an agenda of some kind on the part of the developers isn't really in line with the continuity of the characters from their very introductions - Wrathion and Sabellian aren't *suddenly* insufferable, they've always been so. Similarly, Ebyssian isn't suddenly the elder statesman and mediator of the Black Dragonflight as he's been in that mold since [i]Legion[/] and on into BfA. Sabellian and Wrathion embody the qualities of desperation and entitlement, respectively; whereas Ebyssian is more the aspect of reluctance or acceptance as concerns the legacy of what it is to be of the Black Dragonflight.

I'd say all three of them need more growth before becoming the Earthwarder if that's to be any of their fates, but Ebyssian is in the lead nonetheless.

I do understand your point regarding Ebyssian being well-suited to lead from the get-go, but I also would contest that Sabellian and Wrathion are being presented in a wholly-undistorted capacity. You appear to have misconstrued me on account of suggesting that I believe the portrayal of Wrathion as an immature imbecile or Sabellian as an overbearing prick to be inaccurate; quite the contrary, those traits are defining aspects of their respective characters (the latter moreso, on account of how little character he had pre-DF). However, although Wrathion has always been brash and misguided, and Sabellian has always been a prick, these qualities appear to, at a certain point in the story, grow to such an extent that I can't help but view as transparent and indulgent. It does feel as though there was a conscious effort undertaken to move away from making either of those characters seem viable simply on account of how gratuitous their astonishing dickery has been throughout the patch.

As for my personal opposition to Ebyssian taking the role, I'm simply of the mind that he's perfectly suited on a Watsonian level, which is precisely why I'm opposed to it. It will offer minimal potential conflict in the future. Ideally, this ought to be a long-term thing. If not that, then Sabellian should win. If not him, Wrathion. Ebyssian is only preferable to Emberthal or some kind of "democracy good" aesop crammed lovingly down our throats, with his only real narrative advantage being a nice subversion on the tired "look! The young leader totally owns those old farts who "know what they're doing"! Look at our new cool ohsee who is totally going to upend the status quo!" and that it allows Sabellian and Wrathion to go off to do their own things and preempts the personality-deprivation which appears to come with the position of Aspect. The negative traits of Wrathion and Sabellian generate conflict. While it's certainly preferable to have somebody benevolently placid and markedly competent take charge in reality, fiction demands motion, and imbecility or overbearing dickery are conducive to motion.

[Berkilak]

This is all very good literary analysis, but I'm still highly doubtful that this is the intended trajectory of the storyline on account of how Ebyssian is evidently depicted in the icon that broached the topic. Of course, this could be a very effective and deliberate red herring specifically designed to throw people off, though I doubt Blizzard would really be of the mind to do a strong bait-and-switch like that on account of how remarkably unsubtle they are otherwise. As much as you clearly have a very strong idea of how such a decision could be sensible from a purely internal perspective, I believe you're honestly just giving too much credit to it and thinking far more about this than is warranted. Still, I see your point; your literary analysis is very strong, and I understand your line of thinking very well.

Much like I may have given more thought to this than the Blizzard writing room, I think we are giving more thought to that particular icon than Blizzard themselves. It could be a completely unintentional red herring - they just slapped a recognizable black dragon onto an ability themed around the black dragonflight. Or, it very well could be that Ebyssian is the new Aspect. That would be my preference, but I do think it would be exceptionally poor storytelling. It would be subversion for the sake of subversion with exceedingly little set up to support it. All of the other "candidates" have more narrative legitimacy than he does.

That being said, Blizzard isn't exactly averse to substituting a subversive shock in lieu of telling a properly constructed narrative. It would just be odd for them to bother actually constructing a proper narrative just to ignore that.

And yeah, as for my actual personal preference, I think there's the most dramatic potency to be mined with Iridikron. He's been positioned as completely irredeemable which would make a successful redemption extremely gratifying. But I doubt they'd want to go there.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Totally agree.

Same, it's right up there with Legion, MoP and WotLK imo.

[Khaza-R]

It is kind of annoying to have Blizzard give us these sides to choose from, only to basically pick neither of them and/or go the safest route for the plot. They did a similar thing with the BFA Loyalist/Saurfang plotline too, but at least both sides got SOME W's, despite Sylvanas' side being made the clear bad side there.

Actually, the Sabellian and Wrathion stuff is arguably WORSE! Cause no one wins in the end, and that stupid ass Rep shit goes nowhere.

I don't think it could possibly be worst than the loyalist choice unless Sabellian ends up an Old God in disguise or something.

The issue with the loyalist option is that is was done in bad faith. Going along with a character while obscuring their true intentions that very few would agree with in the first place. It ultimately just made a fool out of the PC.

[Cheezits]

Actually, the Sabellian and Wrathion stuff is arguably WORSE! Cause no one wins in the end, and that stupid ass Rep shit goes nowhere.

The "contest" was fun characterization and worldbuilding. They were never going to have one side beat the other, those WoW days are LONG gone.

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I don't think it could possibly be worst than the loyalist choice unless Sabellian ends up an Old God in disguise or something.

The issue with the loyalist option is that is was done in bad faith. Going along with a character while obscuring their true intentions that very few would agree with in the first place. It ultimately just made a fool out of the PC.

It would have been cool if the loyalist path ended with the PC versus all the rebel lore figures who inevitably beat them. There would be a lore reason why the loyalists lose as opposed to a simple "Sylvanas left and we forgive u", and they get a really cool scenario where your character actually matters in the story.

There could even be a special reward if you beat everyone (until Anduin ENOUGHs or something similar)

[Nebron]

I’m genuinely curious what in this expansion makes you think next will be the cosmic realms of Order? We know Blizzard want to keep the story a bit more grounded as opposed to cosmic due to feedback, a least for a little while.

Going off subtle hints that we usually tend to see in expansions, the likely contenders are looking like one of Avaloren, underground Azeroth, Tel’Abim, South Seas or Ancient Kalimdor. With Emerald Dream being a more overt possibility if it isn’t patch content.

An honest question - when Emerald Dream has been separated from the idea of Realm of Life? Like, I can't find any info about so called Realm of Life / Realm of Order.

And even if that's the case by the Chronicles cosmology standards, I can't imagine they would go that route again after Shadowlands. It simply feels like adding yet another layer to a story that is already complicated and pretty leaky enough.

There's so much to explore as you've already mentioned - the other side of Azeroth, unexplored islands known by name that player had no opportunity to discover, now Avaloren. It's even much more in tune with WoW to explore "the past", even the most distant one through time-travelling, than go to yet another Realm of [put whatever you want here and make expansion all about it].
Everything about Realm of X screams fan-fiction to me - it's like the most boring tool for a world-creation, especially with such an abundence of possibilities, down on Azeroth. It's a Pandora Box, just like Shadowlands were - once you open it, there's no coming back - and by the way, writers will have to deal with crap of Jailer and First Ones first, before moving to another cosmological mystery.

[Cheezits]

The Dreams connection to the Life realm has always been up in the air as has the lore of the Dream itself. I think the Dream patch will lean a little into the "Lifelands" idea with new creatures and areas because, like the raid, the dream is first and foremost a COPY of Azeroth... so if it was true to lore, going into the Dream at the tree portal would just take you to a greener, mistier Ohnaran Plains.

I am expecting that Eye of Ysera deepcut lore from the RPG to be the hub they use and some varied areas that keep it from just being another Valsharah. Maybe some proper Fae (the Dream ones, not Ardenweald) areas and an appearance by Elune and/or An'she. This has been kind of foreshadowed by the three tints to the upcoming Green Dragonflight Vestements: Green, Blue and Yellow tints.

Also that giant cat model from the shop mount will definitely appear somewhere in there. And it already has a sunny glow.

[Fahrad Wagner]

An honest question - when Emerald Dream has been separated from the idea of Realm of Life? Like, I can't find any info about so called Realm of Life / Realm of Order.

And even if that's the case by the Chronicles cosmology standards, I can't imagine they would go that route again after Shadowlands. It simply feels like adding yet another layer to a story that is already complicated and pretty leaky enough.

There's so much to explore as you've already mentioned - the other side of Azeroth, unexplored islands known by name that player had no opportunity to discover, now Avaloren. It's even much more in tune with WoW to explore "the past", even the most distant one through time-travelling, than go to yet another Realm of [put whatever you want here and make expansion all about it].
Everything about Realm of X screams fan-fiction to me - it's like the most boring tool for a world-creation, especially with such an abundence of possibilities, down on Azeroth. It's a Pandora Box, just like Shadowlands were - once you open it, there's no coming back - and by the way, writers will have to deal with crap of Jailer and First Ones first, before moving to another cosmological mystery.

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

[Sondrelk]

The "contest" was fun characterization and worldbuilding. They were never going to have one side beat the other, those WoW days are LONG gone.

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It would have been cool if the loyalist path ended with the PC versus all the rebel lore figures who inevitably beat them. There would be a lore reason why the loyalists lose as opposed to a simple "Sylvanas left and we forgive u", and they get a really cool scenario where your character actually matters in the story.

There could even be a special reward if you beat everyone (until Anduin ENOUGHs or something similar)

The loyalist choice was a dumb idea to begin with. WoW isnt the kind of game where the player character can be willfully evil. And joining Sylvanas even after you know she wants everyone dead is definitely up there.
Realistically the Horde players who chose to the Loyalist questline should be stuck in a jail cell in Orgrimmar, where the only thing you can do is talk to an NPC to confess your crimes to be let out.

[Aucald]

I do understand your point regarding Ebyssian being well-suited to lead from the get-go, but I also would contest that Sabellian and Wrathion are being presented in a wholly-undistorted capacity. You appear to have misconstrued me on account of suggesting that I believe the portrayal of Wrathion as an immature imbecile or Sabellian as an overbearing prick to be inaccurate; quite the contrary, those traits are defining aspects of their respective characters (the latter moreso, on account of how little character he had pre-DF). However, although Wrathion has always been brash and misguided, and Sabellian has always been a prick, these qualities appear to, at a certain point in the story, grow to such an extent that I can't help but view as transparent and indulgent. It does feel as though there was a conscious effort undertaken to move away from making either of those characters seem viable simply on account of how gratuitous their astonishing dickery has been throughout the patch.

This goes further toward my point that neither Wrathion nor Sabellian would make for a good Aspect - whether it's being brash and misguided, or being a misanthropic prick, you don't want either of these personality types amplified by feeding them untold Titanic power.

As for my personal opposition to Ebyssian taking the role, I'm simply of the mind that he's perfectly suited on a Watsonian level, which is precisely why I'm opposed to it. It will offer minimal potential conflict in the future. Ideally, this ought to be a long-term thing. If not that, then Sabellian should win. If not him, Wrathion. Ebyssian is only preferable to Emberthal or some kind of "democracy good" aesop crammed lovingly down our throats, with his only real narrative advantage being a nice subversion on the tired "look! The young leader totally owns those old farts who "know what they're doing"! Look at our new cool ohsee who is totally going to upend the status quo!" and that it allows Sabellian and Wrathion to go off to do their own things and preempts the personality-deprivation which appears to come with the position of Aspect. The negative traits of Wrathion and Sabellian generate conflict. While it's certainly preferable to have somebody benevolently placid and markedly competent take charge in reality, fiction demands motion, and imbecility or overbearing dickery are conducive to motion.

I understand the desire for conflict in the story of a game, but I don't agree that the potential for conflict should come at the expense of either internal consistency or the suspension of common sense. I don't want an obviously bad choice to be made solely because the outcome of living through it would be "fun," this detracts from the narrative in the longer term, and goes more toward ruining immersion than it any short-term narrative gains it might provide. Sure, either Wrathion or Sabellian would be the best choice if your sole interest was maximum carnage - but the decision to anoint either of them would be dumb, especially if it's willingly done by the other Aspects or by the mandate of the Titans. Now if Wrathion or Sabellian were to somehow "steal" the mantle of Aspectral power you'd have a different kind of story, one that I could get behind - but willingly choosing either of them at this point? It's a bad decision all around, both on the Watsonian and Doylist levels.

[Sondrelk]

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

The way I understood it is that the Zereths are the source of whatever cosmic realms. It just so happens that all the cosmic realms intersect to create reality.

The Emerald Dream just seems to me like the middle ground between the plane of existence Azeroth is in, and the Realms of Life proper. Similar to how the Shadowlands can be accessed from Azeroth, but there exists a separate Shadowlands further beyond that.

[Cheezits]

Realm of Life and Emerald Dream are two very distinct things. Since Zereth Mortis, we know there is a "Zereth" realm for each force of the cosmos (Mortis, Lumen, Ordus, Vitae, Umbra, Tumult). The Emerald Dream is some sort of spirit world attached to Azeroth, so it is distinct from Zereth Vitae, even though it would probably be visually similar in some aspects (as both are realms heavily influenced by the force of Life). But we can't even be sure of that, after all... Zereth Mortis didn't really look like the rest of the Shadowlands!

The Dream and Zereth Vitae probably are connected, and I am not sure if we have confirmation of the "Lifelands" existing similarly to the Shadowlands?

"The Gardens of Life" are namedropped by ONE quest NPC in Shadowlands and the Grimoire mentions a Life Pantheon, but that's about it. I think there's a mention in the Nathrezim book as well?

If they want to keep the old lore intact, I think they are going to go with "the Dream is a chunk of the Life Plane/Life "veil" that Freya carved out, maybe with Elune's blessing ". So if you walk further in you end up in the Life Plane, but the Dream is it's own pocket dimension.

[Paula Deen]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

[Sondrelk]

This goes further toward my point that neither Wrathion nor Sabellian would make for a good Aspect - whether it's being brash and misguided, or being a misanthropic prick, you don't want either of these personality types amplified by feeding them untold Titanic power.



I understand the desire for conflict in the story of a game, but I don't agree that the potential for conflict should come at the expense of either internal consistency or the suspension of common sense. I don't want an obviously bad choice to be made solely because the outcome of living through it would be "fun," this detracts from the narrative in the longer term, and goes more toward ruining immersion than it any short-term narrative gains it might provide. Sure, either Wrathion or Sabellian would be the best choice if your sole interest was maximum carnage - but the decision to anoint either of them would be dumb, especially if it's willingly done by the other Aspects or by the mandate of the Titans. Now if Wrathion or Sabellian were to somehow "steal" the mantle of Aspectral power you'd have a different kind of story, one that I could get behind - but willingly choosing either of them at this point? It's a bad decision all around, both on the Watsonian and Doylist levels.

Both Sabellian and Wrathion could work as an aspect. It would just require one to get a character arc, and for the other to accept that they won't lead, which in itself is a character arc. Both of them are equally in need of being humbled though, so the choice between them is problematic because either are unsuited for that kind of story, it's meaningless because both characters are the same. Both have to learn exactly the same lesson of humility.
Once both have learned humility though, it's really a cointoss which one is better. Which means that the most likely outcome would have been for one to die. Or as we see happen on the PTR, for a third candidate to show up.

[Cheezits]

The way I understood it is that the Zereths are the source of whatever cosmic realms. It just so happens that all the cosmic realms intersect to create reality.

The Emerald Dream just seems to me like the middle ground between the plane of existence Azeroth is in, and the Realms of Life proper. Similar to how the Shadowlands can be accessed from Azeroth, but there exists a separate Shadowlands further beyond that.

Right. The "Azeroth Shadowlands" is the Veil of Death (I think it's referred to as such in SL or at least the Veil) and the 10.0.7 book on Azshara mentions she's hiding in the Void veil. So they are elaborating on the spaces between planes... maybe that will be the Nether as well?

But yeah the Dream may just be the Life veil. However, then what is the Ancestral Plane?

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I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

I still think a texture update may happen, as well as asset updates, but definitely no geography changes. There's too many updates to race related models and buildings that aren't currently relevant.

[Sondrelk]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

An alternative reading is that they are looking at the old world, and deciding that while they are doing revamps and what have you, they can also add Dragonriding.
If anything, the fact that they are adding Dragonriding to the old world is in itself a good argument for them prepping the area for actual content in the future.

If a world revamp necessarily had to be on the level of what we had in Cata then them putting effort in might be meaningless. But for most zones all that is needed is a new coat of paint. Nothing that would necessarily interfere with the Dragonriding being added.
Don't forget, we do have updates to content in areas where Dragonriding currently exists, so it's not like that content puts a giant restriction on that specific area forever.

[Valysar]

I saw the other day someone point out that some of the promo pictures for this patch had a white dragonriding mount in it, so maybe we'll get it at some point now?

Also still amused at people thinking Fyrakk's lasting beyond this patch.

Well, it seems that the combination of all Dragonflights results in a white color

[Sondrelk]

Right. The "Azeroth Shadowlands" is the Veil of Death (I think it's referred to as such in SL or at least the Veil) and the 10.0.7 book on Azshara mentions she's hiding in the Void veil. So they are elaborating on the spaces between planes... maybe that will be the Nether as well?

But yeah the Dream may just be the Life veil. However, then what is the Ancestral Plane?

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I still think a texture update may happen, as well as asset updates, but definitely no geography changes. There's too many updates to race related models and buildings that aren't currently relevant.

They could also just make a new set of Dragonriding races. Unless the zone entirely disappears (unlikely after the outrage in Cata), the races would be available to anyone who goes to those old versions of the zones.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I would assume now that the World Revamp idea is out the window for sure. If they are spending valuable resources making races for the old world in the middle of an expansion, when they could save that for a World Revamp that would improve the environments and allow better 'tracks' later, I believe it is a pretty safe assumption.

All bets off then for 11.0

Yo Butter Queen! It's been a while! That was my argument as well... but others assumed these could just be ported into the World Revamp, so Idk. So far my money is on Avaloren / Pirate expansion!