1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    My fear is endgame is largely just going to be chasing higher number gear or very specific drops, which I think is an enormous waste of time.
    Perhaps Diablo games are not for you, then? That's what these games ARE. It's like saying "my fear is that tennis will be all about hitting yellow balls with a racket, which I think is an enormous waste of time" - cool, don't play tennis, then. Easy solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    It's looking a lot like they aren't going to even try to innovate on that.
    Not on the core formula, no. That's what defines a genre. It'd be like Counterstrike "innovating" on shooting people with guns and throwing bombs - that's... what that kind of game is. If you want something else, play a different kind of game. That's why we HAVE genres, so you know what's what from the label.

    That being said, they are innovating on other stuff, like the whole MMO vibe. That's different from previous Diablo titles.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That being said, they are innovating on other stuff, like the whole MMO vibe. That's different from previous Diablo titles.
    Not really "innovating" so much as adopting existing concepts and designs as Blizzard often does (very well, usually). I'm wondering if there's anything actually "innovative" in D4 at all, actually. Not that it needs to innovate by any means.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    It's looking a lot like they aren't going to even try to innovate on that.
    Is there even a way to innovate beyond that for an ARPG with loot at its core?
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  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not really "innovating" so much as adopting existing concepts and designs as Blizzard often does (very well, usually). I'm wondering if there's anything actually "innovative" in D4 at all, actually. Not that it needs to innovate by any means.
    And if anything, that to me personally is a DOWNSIDE not an upside - I totally agree, the Diablo formula doesn't need much innovating. Just make good Diablo content and let us spend 1,000s of hours killing 1,000s of demons for big-number-go-up drops. That's all this kind of game needs to be.

  5. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis1 View Post
    Also in last epoch builds don't necessarily comes from uniques, skill trees add a lot of flavor to skills and morph them significantly.
    It may not be significantly but you can change the D4 abilities. I posted earlier how a ice sorc built to maximize stagger had the world boss stunned 4 times but mostly 3 times when two of their friends were also built the same way. Each stagger gives around 12 seconds of a stun on the boss. So there are ways to change the skills and have impacts on how you play or build your character but they just are not that apparent at first glance because of how they tie into systems that don't really have much in-depth explanations.

    The problem with the Beta is it is only 20 out of 100 levels. Things can change later while leveling and even at "End-game". It might not be as drastic as WoW when it has different stat scaling and exponentially item level growth. But things do change.
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  6. #786
    Not sure why, but I found the March beta to more fun and exciting. This last beta just isn't engaging me: feels bland, boring, and generic.

    Will wait on purchasing.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Not sure why, but I found the March beta to more fun and exciting. This last beta just isn't engaging me: feels bland, boring, and generic.

    Will wait on purchasing.
    I think a lot of that lack of "fun and exciting" was the drop rate and being showered in legendaries. People got that dopamine hit a lot in the previous beta's, which is fine and all in short bits, but would be detrimental for the long term health of the game.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis1 View Post
    People keep saying that the beta is no indication of the endgame but I m sorry to say this but a lot of design choice of DIV that can be found in the beta makes no sense at all, at least to me. Like needing to put point in every abilities in the tree before being able to try them. Usually talent trees are made to specialize in a skill or to morph them, but how are you able to choose without being able to test the skills ? Also in last epoch builds don't necessarily comes from uniques, skill trees add a lot of flavor to skills and morph them significantly. Not all build are reliant on uniques, even if some builds are indeed enabled by uniques. Also some players here talked about how individual talent points feel underwhelming in the beta and it is a very valid concern.

    Also people keep talking about endgame content but in a Hack and Slash (diablo games are Hack and slashes btw, not ARPG, ARPG are soul like games and the like of those) we all know it will be a variation of mapping or maybe dungeon crawling. In most H&S it is the case. Just throw a map here and put mobs inside, shake it and you have endgame....



    First 20 levels in last epoch are fine and are more exciting to me than what DIV has to offer in the beta. I don't really know what you re trying to tell me. You can t change my feelings or opinion on DIV...
    In D4 you can freely and cheaply respec as much as you want so you can test out the skills and you often unlock several skills without even spending points due to items that grant skills points,, in last epoch most skills are essentially useless without specialising in them so it makes little difference if you can use a skill or not.

    Every single build that is actually good uses uniques, and many uniques will become BiS at LP4 or even 3 due to the amount of extra power you get from 3-4 stats and whats on the unique item, talent points are talent points, even in last epoch 1 point is not noticable and the same with every single game.

    Diablo is an ARPG, its a top down ARPG, ARPGs started as dungeon crawler games, endgame in diablo will be World bosses, Helltides events, Capstone dungeons, Nightmare dungeons, there is a ton of dungeons. Also PvP for some players who like that, thats just some of the stuff to do at endgame, let alone playing multiple chars and when seasons start.

    The whole campaign mode in general in last epoch is boring and bland, D4 beta was more fun than completing the story in last epoch of which i have done multiple times because you are unable to skip the bonuses you get from it.

    Im not trying to change your feelings, just educating you on the actual game you know nothing about but are praising last epoch while its a decent game its far from finished and there is very little content in it other than spamming monolyths, and fewer builds that are actually good and capable of doing empowered.
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  9. #789
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    I fear the endgame will be incredible shallow and boring. Blizzard will get this feedback and then turn it into D3 2023 endgame that most players hate.

    I feel like the talent tree is extremely lackluster, albeit its only 25 levels I tried. Some talents are required for certain classes and I much rather they had made base abilities with a talent tree that alter those abilities and cut way back on the passives and added them as baseline too.

    I bought the game and ill play it before judging it though.
    Last edited by Grimbolt; 2023-05-15 at 11:48 PM.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Not sure why, but I found the March beta to more fun and exciting. This last beta just isn't engaging me: feels bland, boring, and generic.

    Will wait on purchasing.
    I think it didn't help that they reduced the level cap to 20, even if that isn't the whole reason. I feel like a lot of these sorts of games have a slow start while you're learning your abilities and 20 is kind of at that awkward point where you have most of your abilities but not all of them, and you don't really have any free points to diversify and flesh out your build.

  11. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamut View Post
    And it is because with each level up and point spend you unlock more skills that enhance your gameplay. How is this different from D3 or not noticable?
    Because in D3 you either got a skill variant that completely changes the way your ability plays or you get one of those passive abilities that had noticeable effect on your numbers. So every level up was something cool to look forward for, not just some very miniscule stat increase that you don't really notice. Sure, you spend points in D4 for new abilities, too but the majority of your points will go into skill-ups and passives.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Abilities will scale from gear so at lower levels that % healing is going to be lower, right? While at level cap with end-game gear it won't be the same amount as level 20. Another thing I've noticed is people don't always put importance into the other stuff abilities grant. For example on the world boss you could stagger and it would lose armor/damage and be stunned for like 12 seconds. Ice sorcs were apparently really good at filling up that bar as someone said them and their friends got 4 during one world boss kill and usually got 3.
    I mean, yeah you'll probably have more hitpoints in total but 1,3% is 1,3%. It's still almost nothing for one skillpoint, especially since not just your hitpoints rise but also the damage the enemies do.
    And the more spirit you get from gear the worse 3 points per skillpoint will be.

    I really find it strange that you guys defend that. I don't even think Diablo 4 is bad, i'll probably buy it but the miniscule skill raises... thats just weird.

  12. #792
    Tried it on PC first time, second time on console. Actually felt much better on console than on PC. Miiiight get it on console when its on sale.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post

    Im not trying to change your feelings, just educating you on the actual game you know nothing about but are praising last epoch while its a decent game its far from finished and there is very little content in it other than spamming monolyths, and fewer builds that are actually good and capable of doing empowered.
    No offense but you speak nonsense about last epoch, such as saying a single point cannot have a relevant impact, when in last epoch a single point can totally change a build (like the talent turning skeleton mages into a single archmage). Also your "education" is unsolicited I can make my own opinion about a game.

    In D4 you can freely and cheaply respec as much as you want so you can test out the skills and you often unlock several skills without even spending points due to items that grant skills points,, in last epoch most skills are essentially useless without specialising in them so it makes little difference if you can use a skill or not.
    Than why have a talent tree at all ? I mean it s one of the thing that makes no sense in DIV.

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Lol. No other ARPG has made me eyeroll so early and so much with its "story". I'd call D4's story the worst in any ARPG by the tone alone that they attempt to establish yet fail to nail down.

    As far as endgame is concerned, D4 has no endgame. What they promise is only a meaningless threadmill that tries to keep you occupied with nothing-carrots. Better than D2's lobby endgame maybe, but there is nothing compelling to find there.

    D4 is a shiny themepark with no rides. It will crash and burn a week after launch.
    Can't say much about the story because I skipped most of it on purpose but the voice acting is weak. The accent of the characters is annoying. Is that supposed to be eastern european/russian accent? Some kind of african english accent? I can't even tell.

    Whatever it is, it's not very well done.
    "In real life, unlike in Shakespeare, the sweetness of the rose depends upon the name it bears. Things are not only what they are. They are, in very important respects, what they seem to be"

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  15. #795
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    I really like the graphics and story from what I have seen.

    But outside of that, nothing interests me. The live service model is a bit of a put off for me sadly. Especially for a Diablo game. I would have liked the play through the game just for the story and then quit, but with Blizzard constantly adding story content to keep people playing that's a bit of a no go. Its great for people who want to keep playing the game long term, but for me I like games I can play and finish.

    I wont even get into all the microtransactions debate cos for some reason people love to give me the 'bUt YoU dN'T HaVE tO PaY fOr It' defence, so I wont harp on that more than I have. The game has enough put off for me, that the microtransactions are just one of the issues.

    Also side nit pick: why does Every Diablo game after Diablo 1 have to give us call back, member berries for Tristram. I cannot speak for Immortal, I never played it, but my god, let it go Blizzard. We know the music and place it all started was iconic, you can only rely on nostalgia so much lol.
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  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I really like the graphics and story from what I have seen.

    But outside of that, nothing interests me. The live service model is a bit of a put off for me sadly. Especially for a Diablo game. I would have liked the play through the game just for the story and then quit, but with Blizzard constantly adding story content to keep people playing that's a bit of a no go. Its great for people who want to keep playing the game long term, but for me I like games I can play and finish.

    I wont even get into all the microtransactions debate cos for some reason people love to give me the 'bUt YoU dN'T HaVE tO PaY fOr It' defence, so I wont harp on that more than I have. The game has enough put off for me, that the microtransactions are just one of the issues.

    Also side nit pick: why does Every Diablo game after Diablo 1 have to give us call back, member berries for Tristram. I cannot speak for Immortal, I never played it, but my god, let it go Blizzard. We know the music and place it all started was iconic, you can only rely on nostalgia so much lol.
    They will add story in expansions. Not in content patches or seasons. Any story in seasons will be tied to said seasons theme. As in you might have a small story helping someone get rid of Zombies or whatever the theme will be, nothing that will be considered "main" or THE story. Small isolated stories to give context to said theme. I didn't get a feeling of them talking about these stories as if they are made to keep people coming back... in fact, by how they talk about it it's the opposite. They made it clear they won't be.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2023-05-16 at 09:19 AM.
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  17. #797
    The low level gameplay is exceptionally shallow and boring. The graphics and art style are just amazing, but the gameplay is so freaking slow it's hard to imagine it getting better, even though it certainly must.

    The concept of builds prior to legendaries is just laughable, the one choice that you make in any given skill is generally either a foregone conclusion or a shallow choice; the legendaries have an absurd amount of heavy lifting to do.

    I hope to be wrong, I really do. I find the graphical style incredibly good and in the usual Blizzard style the mechanical performance of the game seems great. It's just not at ALL a stimulating game. It's all well and good to cater to the casual player but casual doesn't mean stupid, and the skill tree seems to be made with extremely slow, stupid individuals in mind.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    So according to you D3 is a failure, im not sure in any reality selling 30 million plus is considered a failure and the game being active until its final season, along with solid gameplay.

    D4 improves on everything D3 had and adds a ton of content from the start, many different ways to play and gear up not just limited to the highest level act you can do or rift/GR farming until you eventually get all your items, D4 is giving the players many choices unlike some other ARPGs with only one route to improve.
    A bad game that sells is a failure, yes. D3 is a so-so game.

    Since D4 is worse in every way than D3 save perhaps visuals, and D4 really needs to not be merely "meh", it is automatically a failure, yes.

    Many choices, you say? Hah! Oh, what total delusion.

  19. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I really find it strange that you guys defend that. I don't even think Diablo 4 is bad, i'll probably buy it but the miniscule skill raises... thats just weird.
    Numbers is always about perception. All games eventually have hit points and damage of enemies increase. The more gear you get the bigger those skill increases become. What is bad about "defending" the current system? Little or Big numbers all depend on the balance of the rest of the game. I'd prefer lower numbers so the higher stuff isn't as crazy and what we saw was just level 20-25.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I wont even get into all the microtransactions debate cos for some reason people love to give me the 'bUt YoU dN'T HaVE tO PaY fOr It' defence, so I wont harp on that more than I have. The game has enough put off for me, that the microtransactions are just one of the issues.
    They use that they are 100% optional cosmetics because it is a perfect counter to anger over it existing. You get the game for the box price and get free updates. Others pay to support those updates. How is that a bad thing? The best part is that the type of argument you are using usually evaporates if the game was free to play or cheaper so it has nothing to do with the presence of micro transactions but about the price.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    They will add story in expansions. Not in content patches or seasons.
    They said the campaign will only move forward with expansions. That doesn't mean they won't add story in seasons but just that it won't be related to the main story. However it is a strange complaint to be upset that a game has post-launch content. It really is hilarious that someone wants a game to cease development because of their fear of missing out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    A bad game that sells is a failure, yes. D3 is a so-so game.
    If you are using your own personal definition for success or failure it is a useless term. A game that you feel is bad can still be a success as Diablo 3 was a success and not a failure. It is okay to think that the game is a failure to you but that is an entirely different thing from something it is a failure.
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  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis1 View Post
    No offense but you speak nonsense about last epoch, such as saying a single point cannot have a relevant impact, when in last epoch a single point can totally change a build (like the talent turning skeleton mages into a single archmage). Also your "education" is unsolicited I can make my own opinion about a game.



    Than why have a talent tree at all ? I mean it s one of the thing that makes no sense in DIV.
    I know all about last epoch and 1 point doesnt change a build, its the accummulation of all the points that matter not an individual point, unless you have a full build sorted 1 point in archmage infact makes you weaker than having 5 normal mages.

    Legenderies are the only thing that changes builds with one single item. Not that 1 talent point.

    Talent trees are pretty much the same in every single ARPG why complain about D4 when its worse in last epoch to change your skill around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    A bad game that sells is a failure, yes. D3 is a so-so game.

    Since D4 is worse in every way than D3 save perhaps visuals, and D4 really needs to not be merely "meh", it is automatically a failure, yes.

    Many choices, you say? Hah! Oh, what total delusion.
    You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, even from just the beta D4 is clearly superior in every way to D3, it seems you are here to talk BS about things you dont understand because you dont like something about D4, there no need to lie about the game just because you dont like it.

    D4 has more choice for endgame content that most ARPGs just at release, it will get even more further down the line through seasons, we all know where the delusions are and they are from yourself.
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