[Official] Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible Race to World First

[Roxinius]

The advantage of letting your opponent go first and get all the data on the last boss, or so Liquid fans keep saying.

Doing it quicker would suggest doing it better.

had liquid decided to get up early and not stream showing their p3 strat echo is going to sleep tonight without a kill

[Tech614]

"We are playing a broken game. If they want this to be a thing something needs to change."

Yeah, if they keep the 3 day race trend, there is just no shot at winning with such a massive disadvantage. I wonder if Echo/Method start pushing a new metric for the next race.

Funny how it's only broken when they lose. The cope is hard, I didn't see any of echo calling out the sussy as fuck hot fix time on Raz so blizzard could end the race before christmas weekend...

Just say GG and move on, ask blizzard for the changes you want in private as both of these guilds have direct lines to them. The public whining sounds like sour grapes.

[Northern Goblin]

and managed to make a better strat and kill in ~30 less pulls. Most those pulls are p2 and p3, p1 prog doesnt seem to have been very long. Max actually talked about it pretty balanced in his stream. The race by Fri/sat is usually all balanced up and the teams take turns raiding and "getting ahead", then waking up and being "behind" in the boss prog. Liquid went to bed ahead and woke up ahead which is a big indicator they had a much better grasp on the fight. The faster kill reflects that.

Being ahead on your 7th day than a team on their 6th is a bit of a no brainer. If they woke up behind on day 7 people would be saying they'd lost the race.

Also first, not faster. If it was faster they would have killed it 13 hours ago.

[shanthi]

You realise in this thread you have people defending Liquid having more pulls on previous bosses because they were there first and Echo got to use their data, right?

If it's acceptable to say that when Liquid pull first and take twice as many kills to do something, it's logical for the same to be said when Echo go first.

Except, as you've noted, "swings and roundabouts." Unlike earlier bosses, one team did not exclusively "feed" the other team data. Sarkareth lasted long enough for both teams to have opportunities to see what the other did--Liquid got the benefit early and Echo got the benefit later.

[Roxinius]

"We are playing a broken game. If they want this to be a thing something needs to change."

Yeah, if they keep the 3 day race trend, there is just no shot at winning with such a massive disadvantage. I wonder if Echo/Method start pushing a new metric for the next race.

yet its only broken when they lose

[Northern Goblin]

Funny how it's only broken when they lose. The cope is hard, I didn't see any of echo calling out the sussy as fuck hot fix time on Raz so blizzard could end the race before christmas weekend...

Just say GG and move on, ask blizzard for the changes you want in private as both of these guilds have direct lines to them. The public whining sounds like sour grapes.

They call it out every raid, it's just more obvious when they lose, especially this time when it's the first time the US has won only for Europe to kill it within the headstart window.

[Clozer]

Funny how it's only broken when they lose. The cope is hard, I didn't see any of echo calling out the sussy as fuck hot fix time on Raz so blizzard could end the race before christmas weekend...

Just say GG and move on, ask blizzard for the changes you want in private as both of these guilds have direct lines to them. The public whining sounds like sour grapes.

Could easily delay the hotfix for 13 hours. Not like this really matters for this race.

[shanthi]

They call it out every raid, it's just more obvious when they lose, especially this time when it's the first time the US has won only for Europe to kill it within the headstart window.

But requiring many more pulls, despite both teams learning from each other.

"Pulls" is a time-agnostic measure and Liquid wins by that too.

[Relapses]

and managed to make a better strat and kill in ~30 less pulls. Most those pulls are p2 and p3, p1 prog doesnt seem to have been very long. Max actually talked about it pretty balanced in his stream. The race by Fri/sat is usually all balanced up and the teams take turns raiding and "getting ahead", then waking up and being "behind" in the boss prog. Liquid went to bed ahead and woke up ahead which is a big indicator they had a much better grasp on the fight. The faster kill reflects that.

If Liquid woke up this morning and killed it off stream then I'd say EU fans have a point. But they had streams on and streamed multiple sub 5% wipes with full comms.

All said, I think it's kinda funny that the exact situation I predicted before Liquid killed Sark is playing out.

[Northern Goblin]

Except, as you've noted, "swings and roundabouts." Unlike earlier bosses, one team did not exclusively "feed" the other team data. Sarkareth lasted long enough for both teams to have opportunities to see what the other did--Liquid got the benefit early and Echo got the benefit later.

Echo got nothing out of Liquid that they hadn't seen themselves until Liquid logged on today, by then they were hours from a kill, Liquid had seen phases 1 and 2 out of Echo before they got there themselves.

We keep being told how it's such an advantage to have your opponents go first, and that attempt totals mean nothing if you get to watch everyone else. Now suddenly Liquid got to see a good portion of the fight and not feed anything, and suddenly attempt total is all that matters?

If it wasn't for the absolute lack of consistency in the US argument I'd be telling you to put the goalposts back when discussing the 13 hour window.

[Xath]

"We are playing a broken game. If they want this to be a thing something needs to change."

Yeah, if they keep the 3 day race trend, there is just no shot at winning with such a massive disadvantage. I wonder if Echo/Method start pushing a new metric for the next race.

They literally changed their strat based on Liquid's on both Sark and Nelth rofl. The salt is insane at this point. Didn't see them crying about a broken game when they got first due to hotfix timing.

[Trabsder]

Just start at the same time and all the pros and cons arguments put forward by both sides become irrelevant. All the contenders should get their respective heads together and create something that brings say the four best guilds together at one venue. Now that would be fun!

BTW Liquid were so much better on the last two bosses they absolutely deserved this win. Well played.

[Northern Goblin]

But requiring many more pulls, despite both teams learning from each other.

"Pulls" is a time-agnostic measure and Liquid wins by that too.

If you want to go off a time based measure, one team started 6 days ago, the other 5. A 13 hour lead was cut down to 5. In any situation where a race has interval starts, you don't claim the team that took longer did better, even if they finished first.

[Tech614]

They call it out every raid

Thats a huge fucking cap. Gingi and Scripe had a melt down when the official liquid site had a fan written article on it mentioning the hot fix time on raz. They are incredibly fragile and only complain about sussy situations when they lose and get incredibly angry if people mention the ones that led to their wins.

[Northern Goblin]

Funny how it's only broken when they lose. The cope is hard, I didn't see any of echo calling out the sussy as fuck hot fix time on Raz so blizzard could end the race before christmas weekend...

No one seems to mention the other hotfix that happened that raid as Echo were going to bed which gave Liquid an advantage.

Plus Echo killed it straight after the hotfix, if pull count is the almighty factor people suddenly now deem it to be, why couldn't Liquid when they logged on?

[Clozer]

They literally changed their strat based on Liquid's on both Sark and Nelth rofl. The salt is insane at this point. Didn't see them crying about a broken game when they got first due to hotfix timing.

They literially went to do m+ once Echo reached Nelth and came back to do exactly what Echo was doing in p1. Did you watch the race?

[Tech614]

why couldn't Liquid when they logged on?

The same reason Echo couldn't kill Sark for hours after Liquid did. They aren't robots that can completely turn off human emotions to the fact they just lost.

- - - Updated - - -

They literially went to do m+ once Echo reached Nelth and came back to do exactly what Echo was doing in p1. Did you watch the race?

And Echo reverse uno'd them and copied their final phase strats for nelth. Both do this, and both should do this. If they weren't trying to game around this it would incredibly bad management.

[gobarj]

Echo was 8 hours faster in a 3 day race while Limit killed it 5 hours earlier. Must be fun to be EU.

I normally root for Echo, but credit where credit is due, Liquid did play better and Echo choked on the final boss.

[Northern Goblin]

Thats a huge fucking cap. Gingi and Scripe had a melt down when the official liquid site had a fan written article on it mentioning the hot fix time on raz.

In fairness, everyone dunked on that article. It suggested that the hotfix was the single only reason Echo won. It was a poor attempt of rewriting history.

[shanthi]

Echo got nothing out of Liquid that they hadn't seen themselves until Liquid logged on today, by then they were hours from a kill

That's an interesting way to say "Echo was hours from a kill due to seeing how Liquid handled phase 3 today." Acting like when they finished had nothing to do with what they saw, but Liquid's speed on the boss was impacted by what they saw from Echo is extremely silly. They both used data/strat from the other. And, arguably, Echo benefited more because phase 3 is by far the hardest part of that fight and that's what they gleaned from Liquid.

If you want to go off a time based measure

I literally pointed out that number of pulls is time-agnostic. So, we don't have to go with a time-based measure.