Writers Strike & AI

[Ihavewaffles]

While I believe in workers rights, I don't know if their demands are excessive and there's the problem that a large chunk of them are so absolute shit they would fail basic writing and grammar in English class.

This must be the lowest quality of writers in the history of Hollywood...many shouldn't get a job teaching kids spelling, less be responsible for billions of dollars in the movie industry...

While I distrust the ai algorithm writing, at least it would understand consistency...would be able to keep interest while todays writers are juggling different stories together, making a mess, alienating the viewers..



“There’s a lot of people that don’t need the guild anymore”: Writers Strike Likely Not Yielding Any Results if They Stretch it Out, Says Industry Insider Jeff Sneider.

Source: YouTube https://www.youtube.com/live/MaVzzYYh75k?feature=share

As the Writers Guild of America (WGA) strike continues, experts in the field question the strike’s efficacy. Reputable entertainment journalist Jeff Sneider has warned that extending the writers’ strike may not achieve the desired results.

Sneider’s analysis arrives as the strike has hampered the production of multiple shows, forcing some networks to postpone the premieres of shows.

Jeff Sneider speculated on The Hot Mic podcast with John Roach that some writers might forego the WGA to strike their own contracts. Sneider conceded that such a move would elicit criticism from other authors and the general public but argued that it was still possible.

“Some TV writer right who’s right putting it out right, so there’s just a question of, as Melanie said and I’m not trying to like stir up division within the guild, or whatever, but it is there’s a there’s a lot of people that don’t need the guild anymore.”

Jeff Sneider‘s remarks reflect a widespread feeling of exasperation among striking writers. With no resolution, writers consider leaving the WGA and striking out independently to find contracts. The strike has its roots in two central concerns: the amount of authority writers are given over their work and the amount of money they are paid for it. The WGA is pushing for more protections for authors, such as the right to approve all uses of their work and receive compensation. Although these are fair requests, studios have been slow to fulfill them. Some have claimed that the WGA is being excessive in its demands.

In addition, they have hesitated to cede power over the creative process, claiming that doing so would be detrimental to developing new television shows and motion pictures.

The outcome of the WGA strike could be affected by the ongoing negotiations between the Directors Guild of America (DGA) and the studios. WGA bargaining talks would be accelerated if the DGA agreed with the studios. This is because the DGA is the more powerful union, and if they were to reach an agreement with the studios, it would serve as a model for the WGA to use in their own negotiations.

Nonetheless, the DGA talks have also stalled, with studios reportedly refusing to budge on some critical issues. This has prompted worries that the DGA talks will take longer than expected, which would, in turn, extend the strike even further.

Although writers and readers are increasingly frustrated with the strike, its future duration remains unknown. The WGA and studios have been in talks for months but haven’t gotten very far. Since the studios are standing firm on several crucial issues, the strike may last until the end of the year.

However, the longer the strike lasts, the greater the pressure on both sides to negotiate an end to it. The pressure on the studios to make concessions and reach a deal will increase as the public grows more dissatisfied with the interruptions to their favorite shows.

It’s unclear whether the WGA strike will give writers what they want. Despite having a valid complaint and fighting for what they believe is fair, the studios have shown little willingness to compromise.

[vizzle]

1) Why copy and paste an entire article and not link the source anywhere? That's basic forum etiquette. https://fandomwire.com/theres-a-lot-...-jeff-sneider/

2) You can't always say that bad writing in a show or movie is caused by writers that "are so absolute shit they would fail basic writing and grammar in English class". You don't seem to really understand what pushed them to go on strike -- studios are doing their best to milk writers while paying them as little as possible. The studio environment these days is very anti-writer -- many streamers and studios no longer treat younger writers as if they're part of the team. They don't get full-time pay, no benefits; they're hired for a week or two, asked to produce an entire season of content, and then paid per hour/day; writers are calling it the "Uberization" of writing. Read more about it here: https://www.thedailybeast.com/wga-st...inst-streamers

If writing in the average show and movie is getting worse, it's not because writers can't write anymore. It's because they're not being given the time or pay to properly create a script worth a damn. After pumping out scripts, the writer is let go, and another writer is brought on to re-work it or tweak it based on the higher-ups' comments. How can there be consistency when they don't even want to pay the same writer to stay on for longer than a week?

3) I don't know why the takes here on MMO-Champ are always the worst I see on the internet. The fight against big corporations taking away all the jobs and handing them over to AI (and audiences getting used to AI shows and movies) is always the right fight. Someday this will be ideal -- when we live in a world where governments tax businesses using AI to fund a UBI, and people no longer work to survive but work to pass the time -- but that day is far away. We are nowhere close to that reality in most countries. Shifting everything over to AI overnight isn't good for society. And I don't know why that even needs to be said.

[Fencers]

While I believe in workers rights, I don't know if their demands are excessive and there's the problem that a large chunk of them are so absolute shit they would fail basic writing and grammar in English class.

This must be the lowest quality of writers in the history of Hollywood...

This is absolute hogwash. There would be no "Golden Age of Television" or "Prestige TV" (2000-current) if not for the writers.

Reception, review, and regard for film and television are the highest it has ever been since the late 1970s. There are more films with a higher average rating currently being released than at any point in film's history. Even with the greatly increased volume in production and distribution- which would lower the average statistically. They are simply making the best content in literal generations.

The average cinema score is a B- audience approval rating at the low end. Historically, B- was a "high" score. Now it's considered worrisome for a film to receive a B- because most films score an audience approval rating in the B+ to A- range.

That is how the curve has changed in quality. These facts you can look up and request as a civilian.


Also you have no understanding of how writers work in the entertainment industry. Writers do not sit in front of a laptop, draft a script, press send and the production company goes "Great, shoot that.". That has never, ever, been the case. Ever.

There is a lot that goes into writing for film and television that is more than script writing. In fact, it is the majority of time on the job for writers in pre and post-production. Only principal photography and on-screen talent really "shoot" a job in production. Which is often just a few weeks.

This is just all wrong. Complete and total hogwash.

[Shadowferal]

As I recall, "Heroes" soldiered on during a writers strike after the first season. That 2nd season was sad to watch.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

As I recall, "Heroes" soldiered on during a writers strike after the first season. That 2nd season was sad to watch.

Sort of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes...can_TV_series)

Season two coincided with the WGA writers' strike, meaning only 11 out of the planned 24 episodes were produced. That forced the producers to redesign the season to encompass only the Generations volume out of the three planned. The planned third volume, Exodus, which was originally designed to be a story arc reflecting the effects of the release of strain 138 of the Shanti virus, was cancelled. The planned fourth volume, Villains, was changed to the third volume and moved into season three. Scenes from the volume two finale, "Powerless", were reshot to reflect the cancelation of the Exodus volume, and to tie up all the loose plot storylines of Generations.

The show never really recovered from that though.

[NineSpine]

It's just amazing to me how advanced people think AI is. Writing the original script is not the hard part. It's the rewrites and editing. That's the resource-intensive process, and so all AI could do is replace the initial writing and make the rewrite and editing process even MORE intensive. It's absurd on its face.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Writers are paid really poorly in Hollywood. A job in a writing room is a very poorly paid job compared to the amount of work involved. If you were writing year long, you would be making about minimum wage, which is not sustainable in Los Angeles, where you can be making $100,000 per year and still be broke due to the sheer cost of living. The reason why people are surprised is because of what they hear in the news. They hear about somebody selling a script for $100,000 or something like that. It is very rare to sell a movie script.

Hollywood spends more on catering than they spend on writers, and writing is almost always the worst part of a modern Western movie or show. The production is almost always at least decent. The acting is almost always at least decent. The problem is the writing. The writing is simply poor in Hollywood. Raising the payrates in Hollywood would not attract better writers. There are so many people who want to write, that there is no shortage of writers for Hollywood to draw upon. There is no incentive to hire better writers. Good writers aren't writing Hollywood scripts. They're selfpublishing their own books. If wages were raised, it would just be raising the wages of poor writers. Hollywood has the money to hire better writers, but they won't because the system is about knowing people and leveraging connections and exchanging favors.

Threats such as "if we don't end this writer's strike, the storytelling will decline!" are empty because we are already at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Hollywood storytelling. Most things that are good are produced at least somewhat outside of the Hollywood system. They're being produced outside of California.

Now, even if Hollywood were to splurge on a good writer, would that improve the end product? Probably not. Hollywood adheres to such rigid formulas that there is a beat sheet in expecting the same events to happen at such and such minutes into the movie. "Okay, here at the 50 minute mark the hero will almost fail and there will be a dark night of the soul moment, and then they will have a conversation about how bad things are, and then they will start formulating a plan"... and you see that in every single Hollywood movie. Once you've seen enough modern Hollywood movies, you can predict what is going to happen. So even if a good writer came up with a good script, it would be twisted and jammed into the Hollywood mold and come out the end as a mushy mess.

That isn't to say that Hollywood writers are actually good. They aren't. The writing on a micro level is awful. The dialogue is awful. A lot of people in Hollywood are so isolated from normal people, they don't know how they actually talk.

Now, let's pretend for a moment that the writer's strike sticks and somehow no new Hollywood movies are produced ever. Is that a bad thing? Only if you an in-the-moment millenial consoomer. There has been so much media produced that you can never possibly consume it all within your lifetime, even if you were unemployed and did nothing but sit around and watch movies and play games and read books and comics all day for the rest of your life. If you want to watch movies, you have years of great movies to watch featuring Jimmy Stewart, Burt Lancaster, John Wayne, and so on.

While I distrust the ai algorithm writing, at least it would understand consistency...would be able to keep interest while todays writers are juggling different stories together, making a mess, alienating the viewers..

The end story would still suck as it would be put through the Hollywood formula.

[eschatological]

Their demands aren't unreasonable. They don't get paid AT ALL for the shows they wrote that end up in syndication on streaming services. If you wrote for any sitcom that ends up on Netflix, you see ZERO dollars from Netflix.

Secondly, this AI nonsense has to stop. Just like you can tell an AI picture from a real picture, you can tell AI writing from actual writing. It is stilted, formulaic, and just plain bad. The people pushing AI to replace Hollywood writers aren't writers, they're dumb AI nerds who think they're changing the world somehow. These are the same dumb nerds who thought NFTs were going to change the world.

[Endus]

Secondly, this AI nonsense has to stop. Just like you can tell an AI picture from a real picture, you can tell AI writing from actual writing. It is stilted, formulaic, and just plain bad. The people pushing AI to replace Hollywood writers aren't writers, they're dumb AI nerds who think they're changing the world somehow. These are the same dumb nerds who thought NFTs were going to change the world.

The thing with AI is that it's just a tool. Sure, you can set it on "auto" as a neophyte and get something borderline functional, but it isn't going to be good. The people best-suited to use the tool, like any tool, aren't the random neophytes who don't know the field, it's the specialists who can integrate that tool as a functional part of their creative process.

An artist using AI tools to mock up first drafts from which to edit/rebuild their own creative work, letting them skip early development steps. A writer getting a first-pass shitty script they can either pillage for ideas or turns of phrase that they think could be useful, or even directly re-edited into something workable in and of itself. This is always gonna be the case, even as AI gets more advanced. Sure, you might see someone using AI "writers" to develop a script for Fast and Furious 28 or something, but those tools aren't ever going to produce an Oscar-winning screenplay. Ideas like "metaphor" and "theme" mean nothing to the AI; it has no capacity to grasp them. It isn't even able to fake it in a Chinese Box format. It can produce something new in the style of things past, by following patterns previously laid down. That's about it.

Useful, not a replacement for actual artistry.

You saw the same with AI art; the artists complaining were mostly the artists relying on internet commission work of people wanting their D&D character portraitized or furry porn or whatever. Not the big artists doing gallery-type work. And I'm not trying to be condescending; a lot of those internet artists are seriously talented, I'm speaking more to their clientele and what that clientele is looking for. And it's gonna hurt their hustle in the meantime, and that's unfortunate. But that brings me back to finding ways to use those tools themselves.

Someone looking to pay $50-100 for a D&D character portrait might use a free AI tool instead. Someone looking for a piece of art for their wall and wanting something meaningful, though, less likely.

[Kaleredar]

Just like in the other writer's strike thread, instead of interpretations from little johnny bad take of the peanut gallery, I'd recommend this video where a long time film critic and former industry professional goes over the writer's strike:




As he notes about AI, the studios are pushing for it solely because they want to use it to hire fewer writers, regardless of how they dress it up as saying "it's just a tool, we want our writers to have everything they need!" That's corporate nicety for cutting corners, made even more problematic by the notion that because AI generated things aren't copywritable, they effectively don't even owe anyone anything for producing them.

And when it comes down between the wants of corporate suits versus artists, I'm inclined to go with the artists. If the WGA is driving a hard line with "no AI in a writing role, period, or you can't work with us" I'm perfectly okay with that. The industry has survived thus far with no AI input. And there's no reason for that to change, especially when it will only be used in an effective capacity to cut out artistic voices. And no, AI is not an "artistic voice."


Also, ya'll yammering on about "writers these days are dogshit all they do is make mundane and generic stuff, the AI might at least make up something new." AI is the definition of mundane and generic. We've already hit the "snake eating its own tail" point from the AI generated art that's been spewed forth across the internet.

[jonnysensible]

The current state of AI seems to be the dipshits from Crypto and NFT's, who pivoted to Web3.0 and then even briefly to METAVERSE are now pretending that text predictor will destroy the arts. And trying to make that happen.

If the AI was actually useful governments could ask it things like 'how should we allocate these resources to maximize these outcomes', but that might be troublesome for capitalists and politicians.

No one should worry about this fucking text predictor being hyped by the same crypto goons its gonna do fuck all.

[Soulwind]

The current state of AI seems to be the dipshits from Crypto and NFT's, who pivoted to Web3.0 and then even briefly to METAVERSE are now pretending that text predictor will destroy the arts. And trying to make that happen.

If the AI was actually useful governments could ask it things like 'how should we allocate these resources to maximize these outcomes', but that might be troublesome for capitalists and politicians.

No one should worry about this fucking text predictor being hyped by the same crypto goons its gonna do fuck all.

There's a lot of that, big corporations joining a bandwagon they don't understand because some guy convinced them it's the future. But other than that, I wouldn't compare Neural Networks with Crypto.

The blockchain is a fairly limited concept with a lot of potential in very specific fields. It's a registry. Banks, governments and cybersecurity companies are developing tools using this technology. And it'll be a good tool there. Scammers making cryptocurrencies and NFTs, and some idiots buying into that don't make the technology any less useful, but for most people it'll be invisible.

The potential uses of Neural Networks are a lot broader than that. I'd compare them with the Internet. In its early stages it wasn't all that amazing. At best, it was just an evolution of the Fax. But once the hardware improved and more companies and individuals started working with it, it quickly exploded into something ubiquitous. Everyone and everything uses the Internet now. From smartphones to appliances, from security cameras to vehicles. And everyone and everything will use some form of Neural Network in the future, even if it's as simple as automatically sorting your phone contacts.

Regulation will be key to transition into a world in which we all benefit from this new piece of technology, because, just like scammers with crypto, its earliest stages will be all about abuse. We need employers to think "how can my workers be more efficient with AI" and not "how can I replace my workers with AI". Not worrying about it because they're likely to fail isn't the right answer, because the process of that failure would still hurt a lot of people, including consumers.

[Tiwack]

OP comes off as an agitprop, I think the WGA demands are perfectly reasonable, anybody can come up with a movie idea or write a basic script - but it takes real know-how to adapt and edit it for TV or the big screen to have a remotely successful product in the end.
Regardless of how capable current or future AI is, getting paid for your work is about as basic as it gets and right now streaming companies completely screw them over compared to tv.

[Endus]

As he notes about AI, the studios are pushing for it solely because they want to use it to hire fewer writers, regardless of how they dress it up as saying "it's just a tool, we want our writers to have everything they need!" That's corporate nicety for cutting corners, made even more problematic by the notion that because AI generated things aren't copywritable, they effectively don't even owe anyone anything for producing them.

And despite my above post, I recognize this. I just think it's stupidly shortsighted of them, because those AI scripts are going to be garbage. It's an expression of how little they value actual writers. Which, y'know, is the problem here.

[Kaleredar]

The current state of AI seems to be the dipshits from Crypto and NFT's, who pivoted to Web3.0 and then even briefly to METAVERSE are now pretending that text predictor will destroy the arts. And trying to make that happen.

If the AI was actually useful governments could ask it things like 'how should we allocate these resources to maximize these outcomes', but that might be troublesome for capitalists and politicians.

No one should worry about this fucking text predictor being hyped by the same crypto goons its gonna do fuck all.

The issue with them training text predictors (and AI art to an extent ) to “replace” those things is that they’re programmers training them to do it, not writers and artists. Meaning they don’t necessarily know good from bad, nor do the majority of people whose input they’re using to train it.

[Syegfryed]

Secondly, this AI nonsense has to stop. Just like you can tell an AI picture from a real picture, you can tell AI writing from actual writing. It is stilted, formulaic, and just plain bad. The people pushing AI to replace Hollywood writers aren't writers, they're dumb AI nerds who think they're changing the world somehow. These are the same dumb nerds who thought NFTs were going to change the world.

Isn't this like, the point? you get the AI to do the bones and the writers will tweak around it, to the actual writing on top of it, correcting mistakes and making sure it make sense? because a lot of stuff lately already feel formulaic, like marvel and disney shenanigans.

There is a big difference in NFT and AI, shit is not going to die out, and its probably going to go further.

[PixelFox]

I've done writing for a living pretty much (though not in entertainment) and I fully support the WGA against Netflix etc. but as far as their fears of being obsoleted by, or more importantly made subservient to, AI, is just funny because, well, get in line behind everyone else lol.

One complaint I see parroted over and over is that "AI doesn't create anything, it just regurgitates things it has been fed" but this is obviously not true if you spend any amount of time working with any of the cutting edge AI models today.

Another problem is people will go play with AI for an hour then feel like they are experts at evaluating it now and forever but before they can write their article or their new "AI policy" the AI has probably doubled in capability, something that's happening weekly now. So whatever you think about AI, I can pretty much guarantee that opinion is already out of date. Like a pandemic disease, people just are terrible at understanding exponential growth.

And attempts to restrict or control AI, limit its ability to use copyrighted training data, etc. are all non-starters, because if you try to restrict what the public has access to, then only the evil people will have full unrestricted access to AI and they will use it for evil as usual and crush the rest of humanity. The only way to get through this is to give everyone access to the most powerful AI so we can use it to defend ourselves. It's still likely to be an incredible era of social and technological upheaval. Hang on tight.

[neocount]

I've done writing for a living pretty much (though not in entertainment) and I fully support the WGA against Netflix etc. but as far as their fears of being obsoleted by, or more importantly made subservient to, AI, is just funny because, well, get in line behind everyone else lol.

One complaint I see parroted over and over is that "AI doesn't create anything, it just regurgitates things it has been fed" but this is obviously not true if you spend any amount of time working with any of the cutting edge AI models today.

Another problem is people will go play with AI for an hour then feel like they are experts at evaluating it now and forever but before they can write their article or their new "AI policy" the AI has probably doubled in capability, something that's happening weekly now. So whatever you think about AI, I can pretty much guarantee that opinion is already out of date. Like a pandemic disease, people just are terrible at understanding exponential growth.

And attempts to restrict or control AI, limit its ability to use copyrighted training data, etc. are all non-starters, because if you try to restrict what the public has access to, then only the evil people will have full unrestricted access to AI and they will use it for evil as usual and crush the rest of humanity. The only way to get through this is to give everyone access to the most powerful AI so we can use it to defend ourselves. It's still likely to be an incredible era of social and technological upheaval. Hang on tight.

One thing I have noticed, having spent a great deal of time working with language models and with semantics in general, is that the text produced by AI platforms does tend to feel generic. It is well done, even creative at times, but always seems to lack a certain amount of playfulness in word and grammar choice that a good human writer can bring to the table. Historically, our best authors have been seeds from which new words, new grammatical rules, new ways of approaching language have sprung.

Then we have to start questioning if people will notice or care. It reminds me a little of photography as an art form. I spent several years working in a prestigious art gallery, and we frequently had photographers wanting to sell their work. We even had an award-winning National Geographic wildlife photographer whose work we had hanging in the gallery for some time. People were attracted to it, sure, but no one ever purchased it. Photography has oversaturated our lives and people tend not to value it as much anymore. If AI generated writing similarly saturates our society, will writing become even more undervalued than it is already? Or, will the opposite happen? Will truly great human writing shine all the more brightly?

[Fencers]

Their demands aren't unreasonable. They don't get paid AT ALL for the shows they wrote that end up in syndication on streaming services. If you wrote for any sitcom that ends up on Netflix, you see ZERO dollars from Netflix.

Absolutely correct. And also, writers that work on pre- and post-production or mini rooms get nothing. It's a one-time payoff often and not for very much money unless you are a superstar name like Shane Black.

People ought to understand the business is no longer practiced as it was 40 years ago. Syndication and reproduction residuals are not the same nowadays. Many writers see just a few bucks while companies rake in billions off that work.

Secondly, this AI nonsense has to stop. Just like you can tell an AI picture from a real picture, you can tell AI writing from actual writing. It is stilted, formulaic, and just plain bad. The people pushing AI to replace Hollywood writers aren't writers, they're dumb AI nerds who think they're changing the world somehow. These are the same dumb nerds who thought NFTs were going to change the world.

The AI panic is misunderstood by laymen on this issue too. Writers don't just write scripts. They also do outlines, drafts, edits, pitches, logline, treatments, and so on. That's where the AI panic is being felt as a lot of writers rely on this ancillary work as a steady source of income and all of it is necessary for all phases of production.

AI generating loglines or budgeting treatments would push many workmen writers out of a job.

Lots of laymen's ignorance on this topic flying around and it's pretty insulting to read, frankly. Not directed at you, I am merely commenting off the two points raised here.

[Zelk]

Scabby as fuck OP, solidarity with the writers who are treated horrifically by shitty streaming sites like Netflix